Advice on historical WIP

Zelenka · Feb 29, 2008

I'm a bit stuck as to which way to go with my historical WIP. I've been working on the basic idea for at least a year, maybe it's two actually, not sure, and I've tried several different ways of telling the story. None of those drafts have worked and I'm finding myself not only sick of the book and the ideas in it, but of the period in general, which used to be one I really loved.

On the other hand I really have been taken up with an interest in the 18th Century recently and I've found a load of ideas coming to me, enough for (at the moment) at least two different stories. Problem is I'm not anywhere near as knowledgeable on that period as I was with the original setting.

I don't really know what to do. Do I accept that the old WIP is dead, at least in this incarnation, and just shelve it on the off chance I might one day rediscover whatever it was that attracted me to it in the first place, and work on the one that tweaks my interest more, or do I stick with it as is? The only other thing I thought of was to just scrap the idea and maybe think of a completely different story but using the same period, maybe even an aspect of it I haven't looked at much before so I might rekindle my interest, but I'm not sure.

Once again sorry if this is in the wrong place. I'm just at the stage where I think I'm too close to the issue to think things out properly. I'm disappointed in myself that I've made such a mess of the story in the first place. Any help or advice is much appreciated.

Mumut · Mar 1, 2008

Leave the first work for a while. You can get indigestion with too much of the same thing. Keep writing but something else for a while. It works for me, anyway.

Marlys · Mar 1, 2008

I agree. Work on something else for a while--forcing yourself to continue something you aren't enthusiastic about isn't likely to result in sparkling writing. I've shelved then gone back to finish at least three WIP, so don't think of yourself as abandoning the original idea, just letting it rest.

donroc · Mar 1, 2008

Yes, take a break from it, get some perspective, but work on another to sustain the flow of your creative juices.

Also, it has been said many times that one of the greatest obstacles any writer faces is the problem of choice. Same as in life. Roads not taken and all that.

Puma · Mar 1, 2008

Hi Jess - When writing becomes a labor rather than a love, it's time to move on. But, after seeing all the various posts you've had about the problem you're having with your WIP, I wonder whether it might not be a good idea for you to write something short next so you have the success of finishing and a feeling of accomplishment. Why not try a reversal (short story different from your main WIP) for historical SYW? We've had some fun with those.

WIPs can be interrupted for various reasons. My historical was interrupted by family problems and it sat unfinished for ten years. In the ninth year I wrote a complete different novel. When that one was finished I went back and finished the historical. I had no problems picking the story or my original enthusiasm back up. So it is possible. Good luck getting things sorted out. Puma

girlyswot · Mar 1, 2008

Jess, do you have a RL writing group or beta reader or someone who knows you and your writing? It strikes me that a lot of the kinds of questions you post on AW would be better answered (and might even been avoided) if you had someone to talk to about your writing - and even someone who'd cheer you on a bit. Why not look around for a writing group in your local area and see if having that sort of encouragement and accountability helps you get some perspective on your work?

Zelenka · Mar 1, 2008

girlyswot said:
Jess, do you have a RL writing group or beta reader or someone who knows you and your writing? It strikes me that a lot of the kinds of questions you post on AW would be better answered (and might even been avoided) if you had someone to talk to about your writing - and even someone who'd cheer you on a bit. Why not look around for a writing group in your local area and see if having that sort of encouragement and accountability helps you get some perspective on your work?

I'm very sorry if I've been a nuisance. I have asked questions on AW as I thought that was a. one of the site's purposes and b. a way to get impartial feedback from people who are interested in the same issues and who might be experiencing or have experienced them too, and who would have a lot of different perspectives. I'll refrain from asking in future though and thank you for pointing out my mistake.

To answer the question, no there aren't any writers groups in my area, except for extremely professional ones (as in published-many-times authors) that I doubt would welcome me.

girlyswot · Mar 1, 2008

JessRamage said:
I'm very sorry if I've been a nuisance. I have asked questions on AW as I thought that was a. one of the site's purposes and b. a way to get impartial feedback from people who are interested in the same issues and who might be experiencing or have experienced them too, and who would have a lot of different perspectives. I'll refrain from asking in future though and thank you for pointing out my mistake.

To answer the question, no there aren't any writers groups in my area, except for extremely professional ones (as in published-many-times authors) that I doubt would welcome me.

That wasn't what I meant and I'm sorry it came across like that. It's just that the internet isn't always the best place to get help and that sometimes a RL person is more effective. It was just a suggestion.

donroc · Mar 1, 2008

Ask the writers group anyway. You may be surprised. If you never ask, the answer is no always. And you may receive a welcome.

Zelenka · Mar 1, 2008

donroc said:
Ask the writers group anyway. You may be surprised. If you never ask, the answer is no always. And you may receive a welcome.

I know, I know, just they are very prestigious and I haven't worked up the courage even to email yet.

Only thing is they're only SF / Fantasy, which is what I've found with beta readers and writing friends too. I have a lot of people I know of who would read my fantasy stuff but who aren't at all interested in historicals.

donroc · Mar 1, 2008

Perhaps there may be some HNS members in your area although it's probably near impossible to learn who they are. Also, you might email the magazine editors in Edinburgh and Dumfries for help. Their email address are on the inside cover of the Historical Novel Review in each issue.

Appalachian Writer · Mar 1, 2008

I agree with laying your historical WIP aside for the moment. Take a breath, and then go back. You could look for a beta on the historical fiction site and post there, or just post a chapter or two. Someone will get back to you. Keep the faith!

funidream · Mar 1, 2008

I agree with girlyswot that you might benefit from joining a writer's group. A big town like Glasgow must offer several options that would suit. I would advise that you check at your area university or college, or local library to find a group of dedicated writers you could be comfortable with.

I found the group that I belonged to at our community college. The group was a mixed bag of writers who were working in a variety of genres, short stories and poetry (I was the only historical writer), and since it was an open enrollment, we had members of all ages, backgrounds and skill levels. Besides being fun, meeting once a week with a supportive, encouraging group to critique and discuss the elements of good writing helped me to improve on self-editing and storytelling skills.

Zelenka · Mar 2, 2008

funidream said:
I agree with girlyswot that you might benefit from joining a writer's group. A big town like Glasgow must offer several options that would suit. I would advise that you check at your area university or college, or local library to find a group of dedicated writers you could be comfortable with.

I found the group that I belonged to at our community college. The group was a mixed bag of writers who were working in a variety of genres, short stories and poetry (I was the only historical writer), and since it was an open enrollment, we had members of all ages, backgrounds and skill levels. Besides being fun, meeting once a week with a supportive, encouraging group to critique and discuss the elements of good writing helped me to improve on self-editing and storytelling skills.

Thank you for the advice and I'm glad you found a decent group - just judging from recent discussions those seem to be few and far between.

I've tried the university one three years in a row and have given it up as useless. My post in the 'worst critique group' thread pretty much sums up why. As for the city of Glasgow, there are as many poetry groups as you could possibly want, but so far any local writers' ones I've found have been either at the weekend or Monday nights, neither of which I can do because of work. See, half the reason I'm online a lot is because I finish work most of the time at around midnight and snatch a couple of hours before going to bed. Like I said though, I didn't realise I was being a pest and I feel really badly about that. I do hope people accept my apologies.

Being really honest, though, the idea of going to a writer's group scares me a bit. My experience with them so far hasn't been great, but I find it very hard to make friends anyway. I'm also not particularly happy showing my work to anyone at the moment as I know it's not any good. That's why I don't want to go into one full of highly acclaimed authors. According to the BBC though there are 39 writers' groups in Glasgow, so I suppose there's still a chance that one might be held in an area that's reachable by public transport and not one where I'd be afraid to walk down the streets in daylight, let alone at night, and not at night on a weekend or a Monday. Just a case of trying to find them.

Puma · Mar 2, 2008

Hi Jess - Have you looked at the thread at the top of Roundtable that lists AW members by location? Groups of AWers in the states are getting together just to meet each other and develop support groups. I know there are a couple AWers in Scotland I'd love to meet - Bufty and dpaterso (of course, I don't know where they are in Scotland). Maybe if you looked at that thread you could be the one to initiate a get together. And if there aren't a lot of AWers in Scotland listed, you could start a new thread looking for them (or check the already posted threads to see if someone has already done that.) Just remember - when there's a will, there's a way. Puma

Zelenka · Mar 2, 2008

Puma said:
Hi Jess - Have you looked at the thread at the top of Roundtable that lists AW members by location? Groups of AWers in the states are getting together just to meet each other and develop support groups. I know there are a couple AWers in Scotland I'd love to meet - Bufty and dpaterso (of course, I don't know where they are in Scotland). Maybe if you looked at that thread you could be the one to initiate a get together. And if there aren't a lot of AWers in Scotland listed, you could start a new thread looking for them (or check the already posted threads to see if someone has already done that.) Just remember - when there's a will, there's a way. Puma

I've never noticed that one before. Will check it out. Thanks.

funidream · Mar 2, 2008

JessRamage;2114694Like I said though said:
I certainly do not think that you are being a pest, and I only offer advice on where you might find a good group out of a sincere wish to help a fellow writer out. Maybe I am naive, but I think especially here, in the Historical area, all contributors post with good intentions.

JessRamage;2114694 Being really honest said:

I relate to your fear. Being a self-employed graphic designer, I was leading a pretty comfortable and cloistered existence, when I began to write at the age of 42. I was a secret writer, only my husband and children knew that I was trying to write a novel. But I reached a point of frustration where I knew I needed more information if I really wanted to get my work to a point where I was satisfied with it, and it was maybe publishable.

The idea of sharing my stuff with strangers scared me to death, basically because I had little confidence in my abilities. I had no credentials to even begin writing, I hadn't been to school in over 20 years.

With my husband shoving me along, I went to my first session and I was horrified to see the members were required to read their pages aloud! I listened and watched through the entire session thinking, "That's it. I'm never coming back - there's no way." But at the same time I saw that there was honest and thoughtful critique and ideas shared. The discussions on the elements of fiction writing were enlightening. I returned the next week, and the week after, and though it took a few weeks for me to work up the gumption to read aloud, I did it, shaky squeaky voice and all, and it wasn't so bad.

A real, face-to-face group dynamic offers advantages over an online experience - you don't need emoticons to convey thought, and it is much harder to misinterpret critique. The camaraderie of like minds invigorates the creative process and encourages forward motion. For a variety of reasons, I don't attend the writer's group anymore, but I made some fast friends there, and we meet for coffee or dinner and we exchange pages sometimes.

I'm sure there are some crap groups out there, but there are also many good ones. You won't find either if you don't take the steps, but by my experience, I can wholeheartedly recommend that you do.

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Brighid · Mar 2, 2008

If you're sick of the WIP, then it's probably time to give it a break.

That happens to me from time-to-time. I put it aside (it being the historical WIP) and work on a short story or two.

As for groups - I can sympathize. I live in a small rural area. There are no groups that I've been able to find and I don't know that I have the time to commit to one right now anyway. I did join a online group for a while and it was a great experience. These were people that I trusted and I learned a great deal from them. Even an online "writing buddy" can be a great resource if you can find someone with similar interests.

pdr · Mar 2, 2008

Jess...

the HNS have an e-mail group. For swift results re Glasgow city members I can e-mail them for you.

lkp · Mar 2, 2008

girlyswot said:
Jess, do you have a RL writing group or beta reader or someone who knows you and your writing? It strikes me that a lot of the kinds of questions you post on AW would be better answered (and might even been avoided) if you had someone to talk to about your writing - and even someone who'd cheer you on a bit. Why not look around for a writing group in your local area and see if having that sort of encouragement and accountability helps you get some perspective on your work?

I think I get what girlyswot is trying to say here, and she's making a good point that I think is worth unpacking a little bit. There are a certain set of generic, general questions that AW is really helpful for (eg. how to do 3rd person omniscient, where to find an agent who reps fantasy, does it matter what year the paper clip was invented for my futuristic bildungsroman etc.).

There's another set of questions that AW is not that good for, unless perhaps if you venture into SYW, and that is the whole, "Does my book/idea/writing suck?" For that, you really need readers you can trust and you need to develop your own intuition and critical sense.

Jess's question could go either way. It could be a general, "If a person has an idea/book that is going nowhere, should they switch to another story?" Or it could be a particular, "I'm not sure my plan/period is working any more. Should I switch?"

For the first question, I think both the contradictory answers, "Sure, a person should switch to something that excites them" and "No, a person should get used to completing projects even after they lose hope because one loses hope at some point in every project," are equally valid and therefore equally useless. And no one can answer the particular question of whether Jess's book has run its course without both reading it and looking into Jess's head to make sure there really is no other way this story could work.

Zelenka · Mar 2, 2008

lkp said:
I think I get what girlyswot is trying to say here, and she's making a good point that I think is worth unpacking a little bit. There are a certain set of generic, general questions that AW is really helpful for (eg. how to do 3rd person omniscient, where to find an agent who reps fantasy, does it matter what year the paper clip was invented for my futuristic bildungsroman etc.).

There's another set of questions that AW is not that good for, unless perhaps if you venture into SYW, and that is the whole, "Does my book/idea/writing suck?" For that, you really need readers you can trust and you need to develop your own intuition and critical sense.

Jess's question could go either way. It could be a general, "If a person has an idea/book that is going nowhere, should they switch to another story?" Or it could be a particular, "I'm not sure my plan/period is working any more. Should I switch?"

For the first question, I think both the contradictory answers, "Sure, a person should switch to something that excites them" and "No, a person should get used to completing projects even after they lose hope because one loses hope at some point in every project," are equally valid and therefore equally useless. And no one can answer the particular question of whether Jess's book has run its course without both reading it and looking into Jess's head to make sure there really is no other way this story could work.

As I have said, I apologise for asking the question. I won't ask again in future. I'm very sorry for asking for advice rather than a generic question, I misunderstood the purposes of the boards. All I can do is apologise again and say that I understand now and won't make the same mistake.

c.e.lawson · Mar 2, 2008

Jess, I think I can safely speak for more than myself when I tell you that there is no need to apologize, nor do we want you to think you can't ask for advice here. I think we truly just want you to get the best help you can with this question, and the only way you can get that is by closer interaction with people who really get to know you and your work.

It sounds like you may be interpreting the intention of some of these posts in another way, and my read is that we are suggesting this because we care about you and your writing, not because we want you to stop posting. Please don't take it the wrong way.

Kenny · Mar 3, 2008

As some people are want to say: there are no stupid questions!

I belong to a fantasy writing group, they're good guys. Sadly I love to write in many genres and love to do shorts. So at the moment I'm thinking about a historic fantasy. Mix what I love best together: the fantastic and the history.

But this ain't about me. What I would suggest is try to find a group who you enjoy and feel are good and join them.

Another thing what may help you: for everyone who asks a question there is at least another one who didn't dare ask it. On somewhere like this forum, you may feel alone but there will be quite a few who had not got up the courage to ask the question(s) that you have!

JenNipps · Mar 3, 2008

Guys, I know this has been mentioned above, but I feel like it bears repeating: It's OK to come here and ask questions. No one is a pest or an annoyance because of asking questions.

I realize part of the perception I've noticed stems from an area of sensitivity. Believe me, I've been there myself and I would be lying if I said I am truly and completely free of it. While a local writers group might be beneficial, it also might not be. I've been in a situation where the only group was peopled by multi-published writers. While they accepted my membership, they never accepted me, so that group was of no help at all. I realize there are groups that would have, but they weren't accessible to me at the time.

And I agree it is a courage/confidence thing as well. If you don't have the courage to ask them about membership, there's no possible way to be accepted. But the main thing with that, as I see it, is the group's focus is on SF/fantasy rather than historical. While good storytelling is good storytelling regardless of genre, there are some elements that a critique group has to be aware of and that might not apply to the SF/F group.

I don't know how many of us in this particular area of the boards are from the US, the UK, Scotland, or wherever else (although if there's anyone from Ireland, I'd love to talk to you!

), but I think in posting our replies, we need to take a moment and realize that there are cultural differences that might impact what we are saying in ways we don't intend (shucks, that could be true even from state to state in the US). Make sense?

lkp · Mar 3, 2008

Jess, I don't think for one minute you should apologize for asking this question or any other. I was just trying to explain why I think the answers you might be given might be of limited utility.

Advice on historical WIP

Going home!

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Historicals and Horror rule

Going home!

Historicals and Horror rule

Somewhere in the hills....

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Retired and loving it!

Going home!

Going home!

Have you JHS today?