What is 2nd person POV

I think 2nd person POV is devilishly difficult to pull off, which makes it rather rare. I can't think of another novel written entirely in 2nd person. I'll be looking forward to other responses.

Bright Lights, Big City is written in 2nd person POV. It works beautifully in that story.

Wasn't "Bright Lights Big City" written 2nd person? I think it was, though I'll confess I've not read it. And it IS tricky to pull off. Which is also why "Winnie the Pooh" is not, in any chapter, 2nd person. (I know, I just went to my shelf. )

Simply saying "you" is not sufficient. If you've got your copy of Pooh handy, you'll note the chapter actually starts in 1rst person - note the use of "I." The use of "you" in that chapter is more of a narrative aside, the equivalent of breaking the fourth wall in stage and screen. As it is in the introduction, as well. When Milne says "you" he is including the reader in the narrative, but it's also very clear the narrator is telling "you" the story.

Though I am loathe to do so, it might also help to remember the Pooh movies Disney has put out - and their use of the narrator as well.

In fact, in many ways the Pooh stories end up being a mix of both 1rst POV and 3rd omniscient POV because there are numerous times when we are taken inside the head of Pooh, stuffed with fluff as it is.

To be a true 2nd person POV however, you need to stick with that 2nd pronoun. So, as you read the story you envision yourself in the main role, as you are meant to do. You turn the pages, you follow the words, and you put yourself into the action. And at the least provocation you are reminded that you are NOT in this situation, and that is is something that not only has never, but would likely never, happen to you, and so, for you, the mental image is ruined.

Potluck said:

Can anyone explain 2nd person POV? Some of my favorite books use this; the first chapter of Winnie the Pooh and Fight Club.

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hmmmm I never considered Fight Club to be 2nd person. I may have to read it again.

We discussed Bright Lights, Big City over here.

Fight Club, along with several of Chuck's other books are mostly first person narrative, but he slips into second person for entire paragraphs and even entire chapters. Of course his writing purposefully blurs the lines between the characters and skews the perspective of the reader. Diary is another excellent example. When 2nd person is done right it can be very engaging.

There are more short stories than novels written in 2nd person. One that comes to mind is Pam Houston's, "Sometimes You Talk About Idaho.' There's something about 2nd person that pulls me right into the story, and can make the most boring situation feel universal; however, it's really hard to do for a long time without being annoying. Which is why I've never tried it.

Susan Breen said:

There's something about 2nd person that pulls me right into the story, and can make the most boring situation feel universal; however, it's really hard to do for a long time without being annoying.

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Agreed... and at the risk of being risque, I will say the only times I've tried it have been for the, uh, *ahem* personal stories intended for a one-person audience. Then, I've found, it works pretty well.

(But those are really closer to short stories - I wouldn't dream of attempting a full-length novel that way. )

Susan Breen said:

One that comes to mind is Pam Houston's, "Sometimes You Talk About Idaho.'

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Great title!

I like second when it's done well, but if we're talking unusual perspectives, I prefer the collective third, a la Joshua Ferris's Then We Came to the End and Jeffrey Eugenides's The Virgin Suicides.

Potluck said:

Now, seeing as how no one can explain 2nd person clearly, those people that said those to peices were 2nd person may have been wrong. Which makes it even more confusing, but I still love it.

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Yes. They were.

2nd person is the use of "you" in place of "I" (first person POV) or "he/she/it" (third person POV). That's it.

Simply saying "you" - as I mentioned above - is not enough. It has to be consistently narrated that way. Just as any 1rst Person would make use of the 3rd person pronouns when addressing other characters, interjecting the occasional "you" to break the 4th wall does not a 2nd person POV make.

My advice to you: find something that is clearly 2nd person, such as "bright lights big city" and read that. Then compare it to things like "Pooh" and "Fight Club." (Although, as someone mentioned, that latter book gets tricky, but it is generally a first person outing.) This is one case where examples, and clear examples, are your best bet.

Again to Pooh: the bulk of the stories are generally 3rd person. "Pooh did this" or "Christopher Robin" did that, with the occasional interjection of an omniscient, 1rst person narrator. As the "you" never partakes in the action of the story and is therefore never a "character" in the book, it is not at any point 2nd person.

(Yes, I went back and double checked it. I have my big book of the collected Pooh sitting right here. )

You always thought that writing in the second person would be a terrific challenge, since you were always told not to do it.

In high school, during the lecture on first and third person points of view, you asked about second person and were told, bluntly, that it didn't exist. This seeming contradiction only increased your curiosity.

College brought recognition that the viewpoint did, indeed, exist. But you were still admonished never to use it. "It takes readers out of the action," your workshop professor argued. "People read 'you felt X' and automatically think 'no I didn't!'"

The lack of good examples and constant, dogmatic dismissals of the form cooled your enthusiasm somewhat. After all, do you really want your writing to sound like a Choose Your Own Adventure book? Still, in the back of your mind, there's the dream that one day you'll be able to write something in the form. Something good that will stick, and couldn't possibly have been written from any other point of view.

Then you'll smile and nod, having proved the doubters wrong--having proved that this neglected point of view does, in fact, exist.

Potluck said:

So far from what I've read about 2nd person, which has been very confusing; the first chapter of Winnie the Pooh and most of Fight Club is in 2nd person.

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They're basically the same story anyway.

Bright Lights, Big City is the only 2nd person novel I've read. I personally thought its use of 2nd person was a complete failure. McInerney could have replaced every "you" with an "I" or a "he" and had the same book. In fact, half-way through the novel I realized the use of "you" had become completely transparent to me. It made for a good opener, and I assume it was meant to give the narrative an accusatory quality, but ultimately I felt it was a cheap gimmick. Maybe this is the same trap most 2nd person attempts fall into. Maybe this is why it's so hard.

I think 2nd can be worthwhile, though. There are a few approaches I'd personally like to see.

First, in a truly accusatory way:

You never did call her again. Why? It wasn't because she did anything wrong; you were just worried she'd have a different tone of voice after the way you behaved. Get over it. People have fowl moods. You're no different. And you're no better. Take a walk and think, maybe, and get some of this heat and noise out of your head. Eddie's probably working tonight. Chance by. Act like you didn't know he'd be there and buy some rolls. See if he says anything, why don't you. Look, he's got someone with him. College girl, probably, working nights. You'd be intruding.

Or, mix it with 1st and take the stream-of-consciousness approach:

Still a little vodka in the freezer, but nothing to mix it with. Doesn't matter. You're not one to chase flavors anyway. What else are you going to do? I need to call the dentist. Find one. Do it on my own instead of whining to Janice until she makes the call for me. God you're such a child, that way. Solve your own problems. Grow up a little.

Addressing the readers as "you" is NOT 2nd person narrative. Fight Club, for example, is 1st person. There's always the narrator and he's the protagonist. Bright Light Big City is 2nd person in that the narrator is just the narrator, while the "you" is the protagonist.

Potluck said:

Now, seeing as how no one can explain 2nd person clearly.....

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First person: I'm talking about me.

Second person: I'm talking about you.

Third person: I'm talking about that guy over there.


Clear enough?

III said:

Fight Club, along with several of Chuck's other books are mostly first person narrative, but he slips into second person for entire paragraphs and even entire chapters.

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That's what I thought too. I just dug up my copy. On a side note I still have to finish Survivor.

I think the trick with 2nd person is many readers don't want to be talked at, its almost like work. They want to read and watch other people play out in stories. A similar reason why interactive movies never took off.

orion_mk3 said:

The lack of good examples and constant, dogmatic dismissals of the form cooled your enthusiasm somewhat. After all, do you really want your writing to sound like a Choose Your Own Adventure book? Still, in the back of your mind, there's the dream that one day you'll be able to write something in the form. Something good that will stick, and couldn't possibly have been written from any other point of view.

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I wanted to write choose your own adventure books when I was young. I finished one too, hand written on loose sheets of paper so that I could change the story order. I'm starting to feel all wistful about the fact I threw it away now.

Potluck said:

Does this mean the "you" is the reader or just another way of saying I?

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First person:

I went to the bank yesterday with a gun and I held up the bank for fourteen hours. I didn't have an escape plan, but I managed to get out of there with $50,000. Then I went to Mary's place and we took the car and drove all the way to Mexico. It was a good life.


First person while addressing the audience:

I went to the bank yesterday with a gun and I held up the bank for fourteen hours. You would think I'd have an escape plan, but I didn't. But don't worry, I managed to get out of there with $50,000. Then I went to Mary's place and we took the car and drove all the way to Mexico. It was a good life, you know?


Second person:

So you went to the bank yesterday with a gun and held up the bank for fourteen hours. You didn't have an escape plan, but you managed to get out of there with $50,000. Then you went to Mary's place. You and she took the car and drove all the way to Mexico. You had a good life.

A.L. Kennedy's Day, which has just won the Costa (Whitbread) Book of the Year award, is in 2nd person.

There is a great short story by Tama Janowitz called You and the Boss that starts out with 'you' performing a lobotomy. HAHA

josephwise said:

Bright Lights, Big City is the only 2nd person novel I've read. I personally thought its use of 2nd person was a complete failure.

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Concur completely. It came across as pure gimmickry to me.

caw