Quick Question about Commas

azbikergirl · Mar 13, 2005

I can't decide if this sentence needs a comma. Maybe some of your grammar gurus out there can help. Here's how I have it written now:

It was not Caevyan’s cherubic smile but the sly smile of a thief.

Does the sentence need a comma before 'but?'

Thanks!

maestrowork · Mar 13, 2005

It's out of context, so I can't tell. Is the "sly smile of a thief" refers to Caevyan as well? Or are they two different people?

What I mean is:

It was not Caevyan's cherubic smile, but the sly smile of a thief [that she saw].

or

She smiled. It was not Caevyan's [typically] cherubic smile but the sly smile of a thief.

Either case, I would probably use a comma before but...

Kate Nepveu · Mar 13, 2005

azbikergirl said:
It was not Caevyan’s cherubic smile but the sly smile of a thief.

Yes, it needs a comma before "but." However, I can't tell you why besides that "it sounds right." Sorry to be less-than-helpful.

azbikergirl · Mar 13, 2005

Thanks! The reason I ask is because Elements of Style only specifies that a comma is required before a conjunction when the clause following it is an independent clause. (Elementary Rule #4.) In my example, the clause that follows is a dependent clause.

The context is that the MC has just seen a girl who reminds him of his dead daughter, Caevyan. The girl had tried to lift his wallet, and he'd caught her. Her resemblance to his dead daughter has thrown him for a loop, and he's trying to convince himself that this is not her.

Edit: I just reread rule #4 and I think I answered my own question: "When the subject is the same for both clauses, and is expressed only once, a comma is useful if the connective is but."

So I guess it's not required, but perhaps expected.

Maryn · Mar 13, 2005

Yes to the Comma

azbikergirl said:
I can't decide if this sentence needs a comma. Maybe some of your grammar gurus out there can help. Here's how I have it written now:

It was not Caevyan’s cherubic smile but the sly smile of a thief.

Does the sentence need a comma before 'but?'

Thanks!

You've gotten the right answer twice but not the reason that I think it's needed. Your sentence consists of two independent clauses, with the subject-predicate of the second one understood but not written out.

It was not Caevyan's cherubic smile, but [it was] the sly smile of a thief.

Gotta have that comma, if you put the understood part back in, right?

Maryn

azbikergirl · Mar 13, 2005

Your sentence consists of two independent clauses, with the subject-predicate of the second one understood but not written out.

I was under the impression that an understood (unstated) subject-predicate within a clause does not make that clause independent. ???

Maryn · Mar 13, 2005

azbikergirl said:
I was under the impression that an understood (unstated) subject-predicate within a clause does not make that clause independent. ???

I was under the opposite impression. But hey, as long as you get this comma right, what's it matter?

Maryn

Vomaxx · Mar 13, 2005

I have a custom about commas: if I must puzzle for more than thirty seconds or so over whether or not one is needed, I try to re-cast the sentence and eliminate the problem. In this case, given the context, it might be a good idea to emphasize the MC being "thrown for a loop" by repetition: "It was not Caveyan's cherubic smile--it was the sly smile of a thief."

Which, of course, doesn't answer you original question. I would use a comma there, partly to represent the pause where the MC recognizes the situation.

reph · Mar 13, 2005

What Chicago says

The Chicago Manual (12th ed.) has no example that corresponds exactly to your "but" sentence. The most similar one is this: "Baum attended the lecture, not to hear what Morgan had to say, but to observe the reaction of his audience."

Pencil nibblers can cheer

ourselves up with this part of Chicago's introduction to the comma section: "There are a few rules governing [comma] use that have become almost obligatory. Aside from these, the use of the comma is mainly a matter of good judgment, with ease of reading as the end in view."

The "but" construction in that "smile" sentence might be too formal for the kind of work it's in and the place in the narrative (reaction of an excited character); it might make the passage look stiff. "Not . . . but . . ." occurs often in academic writing. I think I'd recast, as Vomaxx said. Of course, this decision depends on many features of the larger context, which I haven't seen.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 13, 2005

Grammatically you do not have to have the comma; it is a matter of usage (the publisher gets the final word on usage) or personal style (you can always argue with your editor), but, as Reph the Wise says, I suspect you'd be better off, as would your readers, if you recast the sentence.

I keep saying this, but for questions of grammar, go pick up one of the many gramma/usage manuals published for the Freshman writing market. There are zillions of them, pretty much the same, and you can easily find used copies. I'm partial to those by Hacker, but there's really not a lot to choose between them.

And yeah, this is one of the questions that's always in such books.

Last December I got rid of the annual samples of such books--over a hundred of them. This year, I'm going to keep them and offer them to AW folk who want them.

black winged fighter · Mar 13, 2005

yes, it needs a comma.

SRHowen · Mar 13, 2005

I was taught always a comma before but--

Shawn

James D. Macdonald · Mar 13, 2005

A paragraph is the smallest unit of meaning in English prose.

What's the whole paragraph?

azbikergirl · Mar 13, 2005

The paragraph is

Gavin swallowed hard and looked at the dirty face of the small pickpocket. Golden brown eyes, not blue. Not Caevyan, he told himself. Caevyan’s dead. Two front teeth were missing from her smile. Not Caevyan’s cherubic smile, but the sly smile of a thief.

As you can see, I've added the comma.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 14, 2005

commas

reph said:
Pencil nibblers can cheer ourselves up with this part of Chicago's introduction to the comma section: "There are a few rules governing [comma] use that have become almost obligatory. Aside from these, the use of the comma is mainly a matter of good judgment, with ease of reading as the end in view."

QUOTE]

That's exactly what I hate about Chicago, and why many writers I know won't go anywhere near it. Chicago seems to take this view toward almost everything. Comma usage is very seldom a matter of judgement, and when writers try to apply commas this way, well, to be kind, the results are seldom readable.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 14, 2005

azbikergirl said:
Gavin swallowed hard and looked at the dirty face of the small pickpocket. Golden brown eyes, not blue. Not Caevyan, he told himself. Caevyan’s dead. Two front teeth were missing from her smile. Not Caevyan’s cherubic smile, but the sly smile of a thief.

Let's play with that some.

I'm going to rearrange the sentence order and take out some adjectives.

Gavin swallowed and looked at the face of the pickpocket. Brown eyes, not blue. Two teeth were missing from her smile. Not Caevyan’s smile, but the smile of a thief. Not Caevyan, he told himself. Caevyan’s dead.

Now a bit more deleting and rearranging....

Gavin looked at the pickpocket's face. Brown eyes, not blue. Two teeth were missing from her smile. Not Caevyan’s smile, but the smile of a thief. Not Caevyan, he told himself. Caevyan’s dead.

This does rather raise the question of why the pickpocket is smiling.

azbikergirl · Mar 14, 2005

She's a seven year old child, just caught with this guy's coin purse in her hand. She's going to try to charm him into letting her go by claiming extreme hunger and begging for a coin. That approach works for her about half the time. It works on Gavin, too.

But I guess the point is moot, since my comma question has been answered. hee hee!

James D. Macdonald · Mar 14, 2005

Now you can add back in the adjectives that you absolutely need; the ones that the reader must have to make the picture.

Missing teeth aren't unexpected in a seven-year-old. Eye color can change (darken) in children. How about it -- this is the long-lost Caevyan, eh?

azbikergirl · Mar 14, 2005

Thanks, Jim. Stripping the sentence helped me see that not all those adjs were needed. (I tend to be wordy. It's genetic; I can't help it!) :ROFL:

James D. Macdonald · Mar 14, 2005

azbikergirl said:
Stripping the sentence helped me see that not all those adjs were needed.

Fiddling like that is second-draft territory. From your asking about commas, I assume you're in second or third draft?

azbikergirl · Mar 14, 2005

Sixth.

Took me this long, this many drafts to get the story right. Now I'm trying to get the wording right.

Quick Question about Commas

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