Etiquette in the Novels forum (split from Debate About Voice)

Shweta · Jan 21, 2008

ETA: I've split this out of the other thread (on Voice) because it's more generally relevant to Novels. This is where we're having the discussion about etiquette and register that's appropriate to the forum

-Shweta

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So this seems like a great discussion...

But we need to keep the personal insults out of it. I know I'm behind the game, here, and John's presence will probably encourage everyone to be more polite, cause we're a friendly bunch at heart (welcome John!), but...

DonnaDuck said:
What's worse, he's a published writer and NOT with PA (even though he is Christian).

RG570 said:
What an effing moran.

I'd really like to not see lines like this in here. Regardless of who the target is and whether they're safely anonymous or right here.

Danger Jane said:
I don't think his religion has much to do with his dumb ideas about writing, and it was a cheap jab.

And I'm uncomfortable about this one too -- I know, we should be able to say we find ideas dumb, but writing all of someone's ideas off as dumb seems... um, harsh?

ETA: Not to pick on you guys in particular, it's just that these lines sort of exemplify what I'm talking about.

And the thing is, I know everyone here can express serious disagreements without personal insults -- I've seen it. My understanding is that this blog post got under people's skins, and insults were a first reaction to that -- but we can continue to have a good discussion of why that happened without further name-calling

For the record, John, what I've read of your blog entry I seriously disagree with. But I'm not gonna chime in till I'm a) properly awake and b) caught up with the whole thing.

Roger J Carlson · Jan 21, 2008

DonnaDuck said:
I'm twitching with this one--

...

What's worse, he's a published writer and NOT with PA (even though he is Christian). Does anyone else see this as a huge disservice to writers everywhere, to tell them to give up writing in their own voice because readers only want to read their own voices? Eek--

*twitch*

Guess I don't understand the furor. This guy's a legitimate writer, and like just about everybody here, he has opionions about writing. If you don't agree with them, don't follow them. It's simple.

But "Grab Yer Pitchforks"? Come on, people!

------------------------

By the way, try these quotes on for size:

What's worse, he's a published writer and NOT with PA (even though he is Black).

What's worse, he's a published writer and NOT with PA (even though he is a Jew).

What's worse, he's a published writer and NOT with PA (even though he is Gay).

NeuroFizz · Jan 21, 2008

John Shore said:
What in the world is up with THAT, anyway? What are so many people here so royally pissed off about?

Don't mistake being critical with being pissed. People here do have strong opinions, and the vast majority of us try our best not to take it to a personal level (some slips in this thread). It is possible to argue with passion, but without anger. If anyone feels the two are hopelessly entwined, they'll have a rough go here at AW.

Roger J Carlson · Jan 21, 2008

As a moderator here at AbsoluteWrite, I'm embarrassed by some of the behavior in this thread. "Respect your fellow writer" does not just mean AW writers.

Perks · Jan 21, 2008

I'm intrigued. Here at AW we often tag people, ranging from public figures to family members, as 'idiots' and 'morons'. Just recently a moderator defended that freedom, because those people weren't members here. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87849

Mr. Shore was drawn to membership here by a discussion of his opinions.

Anne Coulter is a writer. Bill O'Reilly is a writer. Michael Moore is a writer. Jon Stewart is a writer. If they came on board, would we have to temper our opinions of their opinions?

Mr. Shore's position on 'voice' in writing made a couple of regular AWers really incensed. Personally, I've not fully formed my opinion of his take on things, but I just don't see where what's been said is any different than what goes on all over the boards here.

ETA - found pertinent thread

Roger J Carlson · Jan 21, 2008

Perks said:
I'm intrigued. Here at AW we often tag people, ranging from public figures to family members, as 'idiots' and 'morons'. Just recently a moderator defended that freedom, because those people weren't members here.

Mr. Shore was drawn to membership here by a discussion of his opinions.

Anne Coulter is a writer. Bill O'Reilly is a writer. Michael Moore is a writer. Jon Stewart is a writer. If they came on board, would we have to temper our opinions of their opinions?

Mr. Shore's position on 'voice' in writing made a couple of regular AWers really incensed. Personally, I've not fully formed my opinion of his take on things, but I just don't see where what's been said is any different that what goes on all over the boards here.

ETA - found pertinent thread http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87849

There is a difference between the Political/OP/TIO subforums and the writerly subforums of AW like Novels. We allow those Off-Topic boards greater leeway, particularly with respect to public figures. I would expect that Ms. Coutler's, Mr. O'Reilly's, Mr. Moore's, and Mr. Stewart's opinions about writing to be respected here, too.

Perks · Jan 21, 2008

Roger J Carlson said:
There is a difference between the Political/OP/TIO subforums and the writerly subforums of AW like Novels. We allow those Off-Topic boards greater leeway, particularly with respect to public figures. I would expect that Ms. Coutler's, Mr. O'Reilly's, Mr. Moore's, and Mr. Stewart's opinions about writing to be respected here, too.

Well, that almost works except we couldn't call another AW member an idiot or a moron in Office Party for their preference in tea biscuits.

Honestly, the way you choose to apply the rules is certainly at your discretion. All I'm saying is for some reason, this topic sparked some heated opinions, but hardly 'shameful' in an AW context. It was only embarrassing when the subject of the thread found out about it. Just like bad-mouthing a co-worker for something, even something legitimate, feels very righteous right up until you realize they're standing behind you.

For the record, I'm all for civility.

Birol · Jan 21, 2008

DonnaDuck said:
Ah! I get to clarify!

There was nothing stopping you from doing so before this.

So instead of calling something 'in poor taste,' it might help to ask me just what was meant instead of perpetuating the problem and furthering the misinterpretation. Someone on the first page, instead of jumping to conclusions, did just that. I'm human. I'm allowed to have internetal brain farts when it comes to posting on a forum. It happens.

While we're all allowed to have bad days and sometimes need to take a step back to see how we might be being perceived, it's not always possible to ask a writer what they meant. Most of the time it's not. Words have power. We must be careful how we wield them.

And I stand by my words.

Good to know.

The man's advice is bunk and if he wants to run away because he can't take the criticism, that's his problem, not mine.

To me, choosing not to respond is not the same as running away. Why should he, or anyone, enter a discussion, when it appears most people have already made up their minds? It's good to be able to choose your battles and prioritize one's time.

Perks said:
I'm intrigued. Here at AW we often tag people, ranging from public figures to family members, as 'idiots' and 'morons'. Just recently a moderator defended that freedom, because those people weren't members here. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87849

I do not pretend to speak for other mods or their actions. To me, Derek's response reads as if it was made to address a specific situation. Public figures are public figures and, as such, they are often more open to attack than others. This is true not just at AW but also in the world outside AW.

What I do know is that here, in Novels, the rule of Respect Your Fellow Writer applies to members and non-members alike. I would also point out, again, that most of us don't really know who lurks behind any given userid. Perks, for example, could be anyone. She could be Ursula Le Guin or Margaret Atwood for all I know.

Anne Coulter is a writer. Bill O'Reilly is a writer. Michael Moore is a writer. Jon Stewart is a writer. If they came on board, would we have to temper our opinions of their opinions?

If you're asking if you would have to agree with them if they came on board, the answer is no. Everyone is welcome to disagree with anyone they like. They are not, however, welcome to be disrespectful or be rude to another individual.

Mr. Shore's position on 'voice' in writing made a couple of regular AWers really incensed. Personally, I've not fully formed my opinion of his take on things, but I just don't see where what's been said is any different than what goes on all over the boards here.

Yes, but that does not mean it's right or that it's going to be permitted to continue. There are limits. What is and is not permitted changes based on where one is located on the board. It's also quite possible that it's time for things to be dialed back in many locations of the board.

Perks said:
For the record, I'm all for civility.

Good, because that will be the overall guiding principle on Novels from now on.

Devil Ledbetter said:
GMAB. I never said that there is "one and only one" way of saying things. I never said that the style we use cannot be altered to suit a particular piece of writing. I never said a writer is being phony if she doesn't compose a business letter the exact same way she does a children's book.

If you want to disagree with me, have at it. But don't cram words into my mouth then bobble your heads in agreement about how wrong I am.

Devil, I was not addressing you in my response. I was speaking generally. Nor did I "cram words into [your] mouth" or anyone else's. I'm as entitled to my opinion in discussions about writing on this board as anyone else is.

Take a step back and take a deep breath.

Shweta · Jan 21, 2008

Perks said:
I'm intrigued. Here at AW we often tag people, ranging from public figures to family members, as 'idiots' and 'morons'. Just recently a moderator defended that freedom, because those people weren't members here.

Reads to me as a quick answer to a complex question. Part of it is: the rules are just different for public figures in the outer community, and people know that's the case before they become public figures. And venting about family is an area where most people say much harsher things than they intend, and that's understood. It was probably much easier for the mod to say something that would be clear to the people there at the time.

All of which is irrelevant to Novels. I agree with Lori: Novels is different from OP/TIO -- we're in here in something closer to our professional capacities. We're here to talk about novel writing.

Anne Coulter is a writer. Bill O'Reilly is a writer. Michael Moore is a writer. Jon Stewart is a writer. If they came on board, would we have to temper our opinions of their opinions?

This isn't about tempering opinions. It's about clear and professional phrasing of those opinions, rather than resorting to name-calling -- which is, as well as rude, pretty bad communication. Saying "This guy is a moron!" might make someone feel better, but it does not communicate the problems with the person's argument.

There is always a way to make severe disagreements clear without resorting to name-calling. We're writers. This is not beyond anybody here.

Mr. Shore's position on 'voice' in writing made a couple of regular AWers really incensed. Personally, I've not fully formed my opinion of his take on things, but I just don't see where what's been said is any different than what goes on all over the boards here.

Irrelevant. This is Novels. What happens in OP/TIO happens in a different register entirely.

Willowmound said:
When I said, it's the way of things, I meant it as in we're human. And being less polite when the guy your're talking about is not around, is human. You may not like it.

This argument has a major hole in it. Namely, that it's ignoring context. You wouldn't walk into a business meeting naked and say "Well, walking around naked is just human, even if you don't like it".

The point is, this is a specific communal setting, and it has an appropriate register to it, and the register appropriate to Novels is on the thoughtful/helpful/professional side. If you choose to be less polite when the guy you're talking about isn't there, well, this is the wrong place for that.

Especially because, as demonstrated, anybody could be here at any point. It's a public board.

Perks said:
Well, that almost works except we couldn't call another AW member an idiot or a moron in Office Party for their preference in tea biscuits.

If someone did that in OP, I would seriously hope it was a joke between friends (which, again, has different rules). But regardless, OP is not Novels.

Honestly, the way you choose to apply the rules is certainly at your discretion. All I'm saying is for some reason, this topic sparked some heated opinions, but hardly 'shameful' in an AW context.

No: inappropriate in an AW Novels board context.

It was only embarrassing when the subject of the thread found out about it.

Really? This thread embarrassed me well before the subject showed up.

Because it's not about John. It's about owning our words. Everything we says reflects on us, not just on who we're talking about.

Willowmound · Jan 22, 2008

Shweta said:
This argument has a major hole in it. Namely, that it's ignoring context. You wouldn't walk into a business meeting naked and say "Well, walking around naked is just human, even if you don't like it".

It wasn't an argument or an excuse. It was being honest about why something had happened. Read that sentence again, why don't you.

(As for walking around naked, that's not something any human culture considers normal, not even the so-called "naked" tribes of the Amazon. Bad simile.)

Shweta · Jan 22, 2008

As an honest reason for why things happened, I agree. As a justification, I don't, for the reasons I stated -- bad simile or not, because that simile could be trivially changed to fit.

Willowmound · Jan 22, 2008

As I said, it wasn't meant as a justification.

I don't make excuses. It's not my thing.

Roger J Carlson · Jan 22, 2008

Perks said:
Honestly, the way you choose to apply the rules is certainly at your discretion.

I'm not applying rules here. I'm not the mod of this board. I'm stating an opinion as a member of a group given the task of overseeing the boards.

All I'm saying is for some reason, this topic sparked some heated opinions, but hardly 'shameful' in an AW context.

Heated opinions about ideas is all well and good, but that's not all that was going on. Calling someone's ideas moronic is one thing. Calling someone a moron for having those ideas is something else entirely, and yes, it is shameful in an AW context.

It was only embarrassing when the subject of the thread found out about it. Just like bad-mouthing a co-worker for something, even something legitimate, feels very righteous right up until you realize they're standing behind you.

At which point, most people realize they were WRONG. Not just embarrassed for being caught, but knowing that talking behind someones back is uncivil. I'd hate for AW to get the reputation as a trash-talking site. It's not what Jenna intended AW to be, nor is it what Mac wants now.

SageFury · Jan 22, 2008

Pick up your pens and settle this like writers =)

It's hard to determine emotion sometimes behind words you read in forums, but it is clear that the mods would just like to put out the small flame before it becomes a forest fire. Everyone is different and with the sparks flying between the lot of ya I can see why what was done is done. Hard to know direction and if it looks like it could start a domino effect you need to barricade before the flow overcomes.

mscelina · Jan 22, 2008

Much ado, I see? Well, there's nothing like an LOLCat to put it all into perspective.

Etiquette in the Novels forum (split from Debate About Voice)

Shweta

gone

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower

Birol

Around and About

Shweta

gone

Willowmound

Lightly salted

Shweta

gone

Willowmound

Lightly salted

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

SageFury

Overcoming the Darkness

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you