Redefining a fantasy race.

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Z. W. Van Kleeck

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Is it untoward in the opinions of fantasy writers and readers alike, to use a title like "gnomes" and redefine what a "gnome" is in your world? I intend them not just to be short people with carious "gnomish" traits, instead i intend them to be any sort of person with a psychological or physical deformity... I don't want to offend years of established lore by attempting something that may be considered offensive to the genre.

I personally think it is a clever idea. but of course it is, it is my idea.
 

scottVee

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Hi. Don't worry about it. The fantasy stereotypes are mostly mashed up bits of real-world folklore anyway. There is no fixed definition of what a gnome should or shouldn't be.
 

HeronW

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Gnomenclature (couldn't resist) is up to you. As long as you don't use someone else's critters they can be any thing you want.

Some fantasy writers use orcs and balrogs without crediting JRRTolkien and that's just dead wrong IMHO.
 

Shweta

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If I recall, until Lord of the Rings, if you said 'elves' everyone would think of the little people who lived in mushrooms.

Uh, that's what the Victorians did to them.
Black Forest elves were scary creatures, as were elves in British folklore before the Victorians. Tolkien just stole from the best, which is what the pros do :D

Some fantasy writers use orcs and balrogs without crediting JRRTolkien and that's just dead wrong IMHO.

Blame D&D (siiigh)


Personally? As a reader, I'd find a gnome much more interesting if it had something to do with the folklore around gnomes, or at least general earth spirits. But if none of that was there I wouldn't decide you were Wrong To Name Them Gnomes, just wonder why you bothered.
 

Mr Flibble

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Uh, that's what the Victorians did to them.
Black Forest elves were scary creatures, as were elves in British folklore before the Victorians. Tolkien just stole from the best, which is what the pros do :D

That was kind of what I meant ( sorry should be more clear). At the time LOTR was published, people thought of them as wee men in mushrooms. Obviously they were a tad different in the norse sagas....which is what Tolkien brought them back to ( well kind of) Even then he reimagined them.
 

Shweta

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Hm, I always thought his were more the British/Celtic elves.
 

Paichka

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Hm, I always thought his were more the British/Celtic elves.

I think you're right -- Tolkein's elves owe a lot to the Norse idea of elves -- human sized, beautiful, powerful. Think Frey & Freya. Not that I can go ask him, mind, but that's my theory. :D

English elves were human-sized and powerful around Anglo-Saxon times, which also fits with Tolkein, because wasn't he an Anglo-Saxon scholar? It's interesting how things morph -- just a few hundred years later, the elves were seen as mischievous and pixie-sized.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I think we had a discussion similar to this years ago, about using an accepted name but changing the description.

I think it throws people off if you call something a gnome and then make it into this 7 foot angry creature.

My opinion is, give the creature a new name.
 

Mr Flibble

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Hm, I always thought his were more the British/Celtic elves.

Which probably owed a fair bit to the viking invasion. ( and as he based most of his stuff on the norse sagas iirc, I assumed those were the elves he based his on)

I don't think we really had elves of our own, bar the few entioned in some of the Arthurian lengends - correct me if I'm wrong


The Celts of course had the sidhe, and there are quite a few resemblances, but in England, at the time he was writing, I doubt many people would have known that much of them.

Thinking about it, the different elves were probably based on different mythologies. But still, in the general public conciousness at the time,( in Britain anyway, still in the grip of Victoriana to a great extent) the prevailing one was the twee wee men( as far as I'm aware). Mythologies were probably not widely read outside academic circlres. Tolkien merely reestablished what elves had been, or should be.
 
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Z. W. Van Kleeck

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All the advice is much appreciated. I would like to restate that i am not redefining the "gnomish" race as another race, but rather a cultural faction. In short, a gnome would be a mentally disabled or developementally disapabled being i.e. midget, downs syndrome, mental retardation, scizophrenia etc...

The reason i would use the term "gnome" is because of the correlation between gnomes and humans. They are much the same as human IMO, they are just more simple prefering more simple lives not venturing much into politics lest their tiny village have a mayor.

Again, however, I am really glad to be getting this feed back.

Shwate- I appreciate what you said concerning using the lable gnome at all, why not just use something completely different. Part of the reason would be because very seldom does a gnome have an origin that isn't something along the lines of "sprouting from the seeds of a tree." or "the dropplet of water that landed on the ground near that magical oaktree." granted these are somewhat artificial explanations, but i think the point is made. I would like to turn a gnome into a full rendered creatured, perhaps even a midget human called a gnome and outcast merely because of a deformity. perhaps i will incorporate real gnomes with artificial gnomes, ones that are alreay in existance in the forests and also one that are so named gnomes by peoples due to their deformities, they are not both gnomes but by association of name, they form a singular culture. It is still in the thought stage, but i want to really start working on it. This is my largest story ever, and want it to absolutely beautiful.
 

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I suppose if you wanted to be particular, Norse Elves and Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Gaelic Elves are pretty much the same beasties. They would have been imported to Britain with the tribal invasions.
 

Dawnstorm

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The reason i would use the term "gnome" is because of the correlation between gnomes and humans. They are much the same as human IMO, they are just more simple prefering more simple lives not venturing much into politics lest their tiny village have a mayor.

That would go hand in hand with a vague linking of deformity and morality. It's not uncommon. I'm pretty sure "gnome" has been used like that in history (I can't think of any examples, but I have a vague feeling that "gnome" occurs more in German literature for these sort of deformities, whereas the British stuff I remember tends partial towards "troll/trow/drow". But that's all just a hunch.)

It's perfectly okay, as far as I'm concerned. If you do have gnomes, they won't be pleased, though. ;)
 

Shweta

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The on-topic bit:
I think your idea about gnomes is just fine, Z. If there were earth fairies in the area called gnomes, and they had stunted growth etc compared to humans, I could totally see humans with genetic abnormalities or birth defects being called gnomes. I really like the concept of their interaction with the fairy gnomes, if such exist :)


The derailment:
I suppose if you wanted to be particular, Norse Elves and Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Gaelic Elves are pretty much the same beasties. They would have been imported to Britain with the tribal invasions.

Unless we mean the Tuatha de Danaan stories, which predate Norse invasions to the best of my knowledge. (I have a terrible sense of history, tied to no sense whatsoever of time, so jump on me if I'm wrong here)
Unless you're counting all tribal invasions and stories about such as the same?

Even if they had the same root though, they changed. By the early 20th century they were no longer the same beasties, even taking Victoriana out of the equation.

But... yeah, similar sources (though, do British elves draw at all from the Germanic tradition? They might be as mongrel as the English language.)


Apologies, Tolkien is one of the very few subjects I do get particular on. Maybe I should make a new New Year resolution...

Heh, not a bad topic to get particular on. People have made careers out of that one.
My advisor has a wonderful little mini-spiel about the dialect of LoTR -- the way Tolkien managed to sound archaic without using any dated words (contrast with Eddison, for example).

I'm not terribly particular myself, just babbling based on half-remembered reading.
 

Z. W. Van Kleeck

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Haha, thanks dawn.

the ideas are coming a lot faster than there reasons with this story. I have a seriese of dieties in turmoil, planets with gods who have forgotten them, religious and atheistic peopls on these planets, and these "gnomes" are just a piece of one of the planets. It's still so illusive as to what if anything, it is all going to turn into.
My gnomes in this universe, however, make me laugh, and smile. I think that a reader would get the same thing from it. They are going to carry the first of my stories in this world... I think...
 

mscelina

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back on the derailment--

funny, I don't even consider the Tuatha de Danaan as Elves really. I kind of lump them together as minor deities, which, of course, is actually what Elves originally were..

*grumble grumble*

and gnomes live in yards. and do commercials for Travelocity. so nyeah...

*back on topic*

Seriously, though--redefining beasties is part of fantasy. Knock yourself out and go for it. I even have a centaur with a sense of humor around here somewhere...
 

Z. W. Van Kleeck

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The on-topic bit:
I think your idea about gnomes is just fine, Z. If there were earth fairies in the area called gnomes, and they had stunted growth etc compared to humans, I could totally see humans with genetic abnormalities or birth defects being called gnomes. I really like the concept of their interaction with the fairy gnomes, if such exist :)

Glad to hear something constructive towards it coupled with a reason. all i have to go on is this feeling that it all makes sense some how. haha. I am currently acting out on this feeling writing tid bits, having chracters interact, seeing how it would work, or if it would be all out anarchy. Having two gnomes means that either one or both of them will be bias towards their own kind. Naturaly psychology says that those rejected and outcast will supply a more declining culture, so watching these two sects deal with one another could turn into

"Gnomes" vs Gnomes: battle for the gnomerhood."

which is what I will NOT be naming the story.
 

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Is it untoward in the opinions of fantasy writers and readers alike, to use a title like "gnomes" and redefine what a "gnome" is in your world? I intend them not just to be short people with carious "gnomish" traits, instead i intend them to be any sort of person with a psychological or physical deformity... I don't want to offend years of established lore by attempting something that may be considered offensive to the genre.

I personally think it is a clever idea. but of course it is, it is my idea.


I say go with it.

I do this sort of thing all the time. For example, my most used MC (who has appeared in more than 30 stories now and has his own website, http://www.myspace.con/etioleswanzen) is a Siren (an evil vampire-like type of mermaid from ancient myth). There is a story behind his creation:

I've always loved mermaids. How often do you see mermaids? All the time. How often do you see mermen? Not too often, but they do show up.

Now, how often do you see female sirens? Rarely. How often do you see a male siren? Never. Okay, that bothered me. I mean, what are they, amebeas? There has to be male sirens around somewhere in order to keep the race going, right?

Now here's the biggie: How often do you see mermaids and sirens as they were originally potraied: evil blood-thirsty water sprites, that feed on human flesh, and caused great storms when angry? Never. Never! Everyone writes about cute cuddly lovey dovey happy mermaids that grant wishes and over all are way to human in mentality. This too bothered me, because sirens are not human, and they should not be expected to act or think or rationalize like humans.

Well, I created an entire "universe" based on this theory alone, and in the end, I developed a race of Sirens that, though they still somewhat reselmbed sirens of myth, they were now a totally unique race, created by me.

Well, for me, I just snubbed my nose at years of tradition and made my sirens to be the way I wanted them to be. Of course, I didn't stop with changing just sirens either: My griffons are not griffons as tradtion knows them, neither are my Phookas, or my wizards for that matter.

As for your gnomes... I like your ideas, I say go with it.


If I recall, until Lord of the Rings, if you said 'elves' everyone would think of the little people who lived in mushrooms.



So go bananas.

and as I only just discovered LOTR from the movies... I was stunned to see elves that were not of the tiny, Santa's toy shop variety. Whenever I write about elves, they are less than 2 feet tall and live in hallow trees or Santa's workshop. Tolkien's elves are just too foriegn and unelf like to me. I don't like them.

Of course I did grow up on a heavy dose of The Smurfs too, so blue skinned elves living in mushrooms is my other thought when I think elves.
 
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