He thought, she thought, they thought- argh!

Mike Martyn · Mar 8, 2005

It's too bad that writers can't use the "thought" balloon that cartoonists use. "thought" is as bad as "was". I have charcters "wondering", "musing", "pondering"(usually "darky!") etc. but there is only so much in my Thesaurus!

Recently, I read a novel by Steven King in which all the characters' thoughts were in italics. Is this acceptable useage for the rest of us? Steven King can get away with anything including books the size of cinderblocks!

maestrowork · Mar 8, 2005

Italicizing thoughts is a common thing. Many writers use that (you should read more books :tongue

) You don't have to use "he thought" or "she thought." Just italicize it. Make sure your readers know who the POV character is, however:

She walked down the street, ready to cross. The light changed. Hurry up, I can't be late for work. Suddenly a car pulled over next to her...

AnneMarble · Mar 8, 2005

maestrowork said:
Italicizing thoughts is a common thing. Many writers use that (you should read more books ) You don't have to use "he thought" or "she thought." Just italicize it. Make sure your readers know who the POV character is, however...

In some places, I've read that editors are trying to get away with thoughts in italics. They actually prefer "He wondered..." Or even better, they prefer it when authors blend the thought in with the narrative. For example, if the POV character is clear, instead of "He wondered if the roses were red," you can just say "Were the roses red?"

In other places, I've read that editors don't mind thoughts in italics as long as they're not overdone.

So... halp! :flag:

I don't know anymore. Are thoughts in italics still OK?

Jamesaritchie · Mar 8, 2005

Thoughta

maestrowork said:
Italicizing thoughts is a common thing. Many writers use that (you should read more books ) You don't have to use "he thought" or "she thought." Just italicize it. Make sure your readers know who the POV character is, however:

She walked down the street, ready to cross. The light changed. Hurry up, I can't be late for work. Suddenly a car pulled over next to her...

I've always used italics for thoughts. I think it works well, and tends to solve the problem of "thought," "mused," "wondered," etc.

Zane Curtis · Mar 8, 2005

AnneMarble said:
Or even better, they prefer it when authors blend the thought in with the narrative.

That's what I prefer to do. It's mostly because I think large slabs of italicised text look ugly, and because I use italics to indicate emphasis; e.g. "He said what!"

Mind you, this sometimes gets mistaken for an authorial intrusion -- especially near the beginning of the story, when you're still trying to establish the point of view. So in that situation I'd probably use the thought tags.

SRHowen · Mar 8, 2005

I much prefer a tight POV where you don't need "thought" tags, or he/she "saw" tags. If the POPV is clear and there are no quote marks, then the POV character saw it, heard it, felt it, or saw it.

Shawn

triceretops · Mar 8, 2005

I use the old fashion underline feature to flag a word that I want in italics. I do use inner thought sentences in italics but sprinkle them liberally and don't over-do it.

My worst problem has been using my main character's name (and "he") at the beginning of just about every dang sentence. This is spookin' me out! Can someone direct me to the thread that covers that boo-boo? Gak! Oh, I'm in third person, single view point.

Triceratops

mdin · Mar 8, 2005

triceretops said:
My worst problem has been using my main character's name (and "he") at the beginning of just about every dang sentence. This is spookin' me out! Can someone direct me to the thread that covers that boo-boo? Gak! Oh, I'm in third person, single view point.

Triceratops

I hate that, and I do that all the friggin' time. After my first draft, I spend the most amount of man-hours going through and fixing this. The before and afters usually look something like this:

Before:

Triceratops jumped from the palm tree and landed hard on the the head of the mighty T-rex. He held his spear high in the air and cried his battle cry. He hoped some nearby women heard him. He gripped the spear tightly, and he prepared to plunge it into the skull of the raging beast. He stuck it in deep. He pitched off the dinosaur's head as it collapsed to the ground. He bruised his pinky toe when he hit the ground.

After:

Triceratops jumped from the palm tree and landed hard on the the head of the snarling T-rex. A mighty cry welled up in the warrior's throat, and it burst forth as the creature bucked and snapped. Women lurked nearby, he knew, and he prayed his cry would envigor them to lust after his manliness. Gripping the sweat-drenched spear tightly, he prepared to thrust it deep into the skull of the beast. With all his remaining strength, he plunged it in. The dinosaur collapsed, and he went flying, flipping in the air and landing with a loud crunch on his pinky toe.

I don't know if the second paragraph is *good* but to my ear it's certainly better than the first. I just moved the sentences around so 'He' stops being the first word even though it's often still the subject.

triceretops · Mar 8, 2005

Thanks much Nav. What a pain it is, wot? I'm going to practice that style you showed me and try to avoid using so many darn personal pronouns.

"Something came plainly into view overhead." (better)
vs
"he looked up and could plainly see something overhead." (bad)

"there came a knock at the door." (better)

"He heard a knock at the door." (bad)

Man, I'm getting so sick of he did, he was, he began, he, he, he, he---!

This usually happens when I'm physically moving the character and I do that a lot. I can avoid it in dialog, info dump, inner thoughts, and scene description, so it MUST mean I'm spending waaaaaaay too much time taking my characters from one place to another, giving them way too much expression or physical quirks. I do exactly opposite of what Bob Heinlein does. He can take somebody across a city in one sentence--crap I have to lolligag, limp, smell the roses, show the buildings, watch the birds, describe the clouds, and that's even AFTER I've described that dang place! Too much detail is slowin' it down.

Tri

maestrowork · Mar 8, 2005

triceretops said:
Thanks much Nav. What a pain it is, wot? I'm going to practice that style you showed me and try to avoid using so many darn personal pronouns.

"Something came plainly into view overhead." (better)
vs
"he looked up and could plainly see something overhead." (bad)

"there came a knock at the door." (better)

"He heard a knock at the door." (bad)

Man, I'm getting so sick of he did, he was, he began, he, he, he, he---!

This usually happens when I'm physically moving the character and I do that a lot. I can avoid it in dialog, info dump, inner thoughts, and scene description, so it MUST mean I'm spending waaaaaaay too much time taking my characters from one place to another, giving them way too much expression or physical quirks. I do exactly opposite of what Bob Heinlein does. He can take somebody across a city in one sentence--crap I have to lolligag, limp, smell the roses, show the buildings, watch the birds, describe the clouds, and that's even AFTER I've described that dang place! Too much detail is slowin' it down.

Tri

Tri, the trick is to stop filtering through the character's sense. You have a lot of he sees, he hears, and he feels. If you're following the protagonist, you don't need to do all that. Simply observe the events as the POV characters would. That way, you won't end up with a lot of "he."

He came to the door. He heard a knock and opened the door. He saw an old man carrying a torch. He felt a chill.

vs.

He came to the door. A knock, and he opened the door. An old man stood still with a torch. A chill swept through him.

(This is a bad example, but hopefully you get the gist)

Jamesaritchie · Mar 8, 2005

He

triceretops said:
I use the old fashion underline feature to flag a word that I want in italics. I do use inner thought sentences in italics but sprinkle them liberally and don't over-do it.

My worst problem has been using my main character's name (and "he") at the beginning of just about every dang sentence. This is spookin' me out! Can someone direct me to the thread that covers that boo-boo? Gak! Oh, I'm in third person, single view point.

Triceratops

Once you've established who the POV character is, sentences don't have to begin with "he" or with the character's name very often at all. The reader knows who is seeing or hearing, so you can just describe the sights and sounds.

And even when you do need to use "he" for clarity, there's no reason to begin a sentence this way. Just change up on the clauses. Instead of writing "He knocked on the door, wondering who would answer this time," you would write "Knocking on the door, he wondered who would answer this time."

preyer · Mar 8, 2005

when you put the character's thought into the narrative, like, 'did she know who the roses were even from?', i think you're going down a stylistic path that, while it's not a bad thing, per se, it's certainly something i wouldn't want every writer to do all the time. if that's a trend editors are going for, i'm not liking it, heh heh. i used to do that a lot, but right now it just seems to through the POV out of kilter just a little bit. it's a device i wouldn't use overmuch, that's for sure. it's very loose writing, if you ask me.

reph · Mar 8, 2005

He knocked on the door. Who would answer this time? Sweet Gloria, always ready to greet him with a wink and a hug, or her surly big brother Ferdinand, the statewide wrestling champ, to whom he owed three hundred dollars? Payday was tomorrow. Maybe he could...

triceretops · Mar 9, 2005

Ah, thanks much for the help. I've been underestimating the reader, a bit. This calls for a little stylistic change. I don't have to flag the ident of my protag--once I set him up, just go ahead a show.

Tri

zornhau · Mar 9, 2005

Motivation-Reaction units

triceretops said:
My worst problem has been using my main character's name (and "he") at the beginning of just about every dang sentence.
Triceratops

Dwight Swain approaches this, and the OP's problem, formally in "Techniques..."

He breaks scene narrative into Motivation-Reaction pairs:

Motivation: A stimulus for your character, described as they see it, but without reference to the character.
Reaction: How the character responds, usually in the order of Feeling (optional, where possible implied rather than stated), Action, then Speech (writers sometimes substitute character internal comment- see below).

So, for example:

[Motivation] The massive ironclad war machine tore around the corner, dislodging bricks from the desecrated temple.

[Reaction: Feeling] Sweat broke out on Gilgamesh's brow. [Reaction: Action] He clutched his sacred spear and plunged it through the breast of the beast. [Reaction: Speech]"So die all enemies of Uruk!"

[Motivation] Like a nightmare beast, the war machine kept coming.

[Reaction: Action (since feeling is obvious)] Gilgamesh rolled clear...

I like this approach because it has a ding-dong feel. It's great for fights, but also works for slower more lyrical scenes.

Uncle Jim prompted me to investigate whether modern writers actually do this. Mostly, they do.

However, sometimes people substitute a character internal comment for speech, e.g. when the character reacts instinctively to something, then interperets his or her own actions.

The temple soared up from the valley floor, as if caught in the act of shaking free the green tendrils of the choking jungle.

Smith stopped in his tracks and stared. He should be taking photographs while the light held, but could his camera really capture this?

Caveat: Of course I'm unpublished, so I may be talking rubbish.

azbikergirl · Mar 9, 2005

I'm reading Swain's book now and finding it helpful. I've read a lot of How-To books and I've never seen the motivation-response thing broken down that way. I like it. The question that remains for me pertains to:

[Reaction: Feeling] Sweat broke out on Gilgamesh's brow.

I don't see how sweat breaking out is an expression of emotion. It's a physiological response to the emotion, and we don't know which emotion it is (fear? nervousness?). This is the main issue I'm struggling with now: how to communicate my MC's feelings, esp when there's no one around to express them to verbally. I've read the chapter Plain Facts about Feelings twice, and I still don't get it.

azbikergirl · Mar 9, 2005

reph said:
He knocked on the door. Who would answer this time? Sweet Gloria, always ready to greet him with a wink and a hug, or her surly big brother Ferdinand, the statewide wrestling champ, to whom he owed three hundred dollars? Payday was tomorrow. Maybe he could...

If you want to avoid the questions in narrative, maybe something like

He knocked on the door. Maybe sweet Gloria would answer this time, always ready to greet him with a wink and a hug. Or it might be her surly big brother Ferdinand, the statewide wrestling champ, to whom he owed three hundred dollars. Payday was tomorrow. Maybe he could...

maestrowork · Mar 9, 2005

azbikergirl said:
I'm reading Swain's book now and finding it helpful. I've read a lot of How-To books and I've never seen the motivation-response thing broken down that way. I like it. The question that remains for me pertains to:

I don't see how sweat breaking out is an expression of emotion. It's a physiological response to the emotion, and we don't know which emotion it is (fear? nervousness?). This is the main issue I'm struggling with now: how to communicate my MC's feelings, esp when there's no one around to express them to verbally. I've read the chapter Plain Facts about Feelings twice, and I still don't get it.

Sometimes you don't have to "tell" the readers. The showing is adequate if your describe it well enough. Trust to readers. Showing is very powerful. Put them in the scene, and they will feel for the character. If you write it well, they will know it's fear, nervousness, etc. based on the events, and based on what they know about the character. You don't have to go into their heads everytime they show an emotion.

Imagine watching a movie. All you see is how the actor react, the sweat on her face, how she trembles, etc. But because of the context, the events, we deduce what emotions she's feeling. There's no voice over saying, "and she's very fearful now." You just know.

The dog inched toward her, snarling, drool streaming from its jaw. She backed up slowly, sweat beating on her forehead. Her hands trembled as she felt around for the door knob.

zornhau · Mar 9, 2005

I don't see how sweat breaking out is an expression of emotion. It's a physiological response to the emotion, and we don't know which emotion it is (fear? nervousness?).

(Echoing Maestrowork)

A tank is about to crush Gilgamesh. His emotions should be blindingly obvious without articulatation beyond showing their intensity through physiological response.

Part of the trick is slipping the emotions into the stimulus. Had Gilgamesh had god-like powers, the stimulus might have read:

The contraption lumbered towards Gilgamesh as if the puny humans within really did not realise the extent of the Sacred king's powers.

Laughing, Gilgamesh extended his pinky...

The stimulus bit looks objective, so it sneaks the emotions past the reader's mental filters.
(The usual caveats apply)

azbikergirl · Mar 9, 2005

A tank is about to crush Gilgamesh. His emotions should be blindingly obvious without articulatation beyond showing their intensity through physiological response.

I disagree that this simple physiological response would make his emotions 'blindingly obvious.' In the snippet posted, there's no indication that Gilgamesh isn't an adrenaline junky who's excited about the thrill of the fight, and the sweat could be from the workout such a fight is giving him. When a character then follows up with "So die all enemies of Uruk!" not every reader is going to see that as a fear-driven response, but one of confidence, as from a thrill-seeker.

zornhau · Mar 9, 2005

azbikergirl said:
I disagree that this simple physiological response would make his emotions 'blindingly obvious.' In the snippet posted, there's no indication that Gilgamesh isn't an adrenaline junky who's excited about the thrill of the fight, and the sweat could be from the workout such a fight is giving him. When a character then follows up with "So die all enemies of Uruk!" not every reader is going to see that as a fear-driven response, but one of confidence, as from a thrill-seeker.

I agree - it was just something I knocked off to illustrate the idea. Obviously it failed the "is it blindingly obvious?" test :gone:

.

Would this be better?

[M] The massive ironclad war machine tore around the corner, dislodging bricks from the desecrated temple.

[R]Sweat broke out on Gilgamesh's brow. His hands shook, making the [M] point of the sacred spear wobble wildly. [R] He took a deep breath, exhaled and, in the perfect moment of stillness, thrust the weapon at the breast of the beast.

[M] The tip parted the iron plates. A muffled scream came from within.

[R] Suddenly the world was a better place. "So die all enemies of Uruk!" Gilgamesh would dine with his children tonight.

Now it's a bit more complex with him reacting to the reaction to his own emotions.

I still prefer the characters not to be too self-aware in the middle of a fight -hence the fear as a physical reaction.

However, I'm really only reworking other people's theories here. What do the pros say?

maestrowork · Mar 9, 2005

azbikergirl said:
I disagree that this simple physiological response would make his emotions 'blindingly obvious.' In the snippet posted, there's no indication that Gilgamesh isn't an adrenaline junky who's excited about the thrill of the fight, and the sweat could be from the workout such a fight is giving him. When a character then follows up with "So die all enemies of Uruk!" not every reader is going to see that as a fear-driven response, but one of confidence, as from a thrill-seeker.

If you write your character the way he/she is, the readers will get it. By then the readers should know if Gilgamesh is an adrenaline junky or not. A person who is in fear and a person who's pumped/psyched act differently.

You can of course, always say "Gilgamesh is afraid." But why? Let his action show. That's the whole point of "show vs. tell."

I still prefer the characters not to be too self-aware in the middle of a fight -hence the fear as a physical reaction.

Absolutely. In a middle of a fight, the character is not going to stop and be introspective: "Oh, I am afraid."

azbikergirl · Mar 9, 2005

zornhau said:
I still prefer the characters not to be too self-aware in the middle of a fight -hence the fear as a physical reaction.

I agree (but I might forego the physical reaction, too). You know, I'm starting to wonder whether the 'feeling' Swain refers to is the physical sensation rather than the expression of emotion. Every example I can find in the book where there's a 'feeling' reaction is a physical one, not emotional. Was that your take on it?

zornhau · Mar 9, 2005

azbikergirl said:
You know, I'm starting to wonder whether the 'feeling' Swain refers to is the physical sensation rather than the expression of emotion. Every example I can find in the book where there's a 'feeling' reaction is a physical one, not emotional. Was that your take on it?

My take? The emotions you're looking for are in the Motivation part of the M-R. We see the stimulus through the filter of the POV character's world view.

Strong feelings evidence themselves as physical reactions, or aborted physical reactions: You insult my paternal uncle, and my fingers tighten on the haft of my flint axe.

Suppose it's less visceral:

The ice sculpure was perfect in every detail, down to the bristles on the creature's neck, picked out using delicate spikes of frost.

Akasha reached out to touch it, then stopped herself.

It doesn't have to be a physical reaction:

The ice sculpure was perfect in every detail, down to the bristles on the creature's neck, picked out using delicate spikes of frost.

The world seemed to shrink, until it contained only Akasha and the the wonderous frozen troll.

Even if there's nothing evaluative in the M-, it can still convey emotions through selectivity, e.g. jazz musician sees the speakeasy differently from the temperance campaigner or the hitman.

It's hard to explain without concrete examples. Why don't you post a paragraph containing an M-R and we can all play with it?

triceretops · Mar 9, 2005

You mean trying to convey an emotional reponse without telling it? I'll try.

When Olivia stepped into the casino she gazed at all the flashing lights. When she heard a siren and a bell go off she turned to her husband and said, "You, see, somebody just hit the jackpot! And just look at the beautiful carpet."

Her husband snickered, "Yeah sure." He dropped his half-smoked cigar on the floor and smashed it out with his boot heel.

Olivia is new to gambling and she feels excited via her first exposure (we believe) through her reaction to something and her dialogue. (her emotion is shown)

We don't have to be told her husband has no repect for the place. (his emotion is shown)

Is this close?

Tri

He thought, she thought, they thought- argh!

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