When Did "Beta" Become a Dirty Word?

Danthia · Dec 30, 2007

I've noticed a lot of comments recently about beta readers and crit groups and a larger percentage than I'd expect act like it's bad to have either, especially after your first sale.

Why?

It's impossible to be objective about our own work. We know every line, every word, every nuance. Although we might get close, how can we tell if there's too much or not enough detail to make a scene clear? How do we know if a character is coming across as we intended? How do we know the pacing and tension is right? We need readers to give us the objectivity we can't give ourselves.

I don't think this is bad, and I don't think it ends just because we get an agent or sell our first book.

One caveat here...
This applies to good beta readers and crit groups. I wouldn't use my mother as a beta reader. She knows squat about my genre, market or writing in general. I choose my crit groups for their skill and knowledge, and I know I can trust their judgements. I also know if I disagree, then fine, I can ignore them. The trick to crit groups is finding ones you can trust, then doing only what you feel will make the book better. Heck, even my agent tells me not to do what she says if I truly feel it's the wrong thing to do.

I don't mean to start any heated debates or anything, whatever works for you, go with it, but it just flabbergasts me to see so many people act like beta readers and crit groups are the crutch to your first novel, and after that they aren't needed anymore. Like they're some rite of passage you have to go through even if you don't want it.

Testing your work to see it if does what you want it to do is a good thing. Beta readers and crit groups are just one way of doing that, nothing more, nothing less. I just don't get why so many treat them like dirty little secrets they hope no one discovers.

Danger Jane · Dec 30, 2007

Really? I thought the overwhelming consensus was that beta readers, especially, are always indispensable.

Mine are.

CACTUSWENDY · Dec 30, 2007

...As I said on another thread.....I love my beta reader. She cuts deep and swift. (And boy, does the blood flow.) I had to up my insurance rates to cover the extra Dr. visits but I think it will be well worth it.

Susan Lanigan · Dec 30, 2007

I wouldn't use my mother as a beta reader.

I outlined the plot of one of my stories to my mother. She thought it was are perverse and immoral and that all the characters were degenerate.

However it was her suggestion about the ending that made the story. Without her, I'd probably never have finished it, and no other ending could possibly have worked.

BarbaraNC · Dec 30, 2007

I was a beta reader for someone and was honest - the plot just did not work, nor did the ending - but the novel was written well and there were great characters.

I never heard from the writer again after the feedback... and I absolutely wasn't overly harsh. :-/

It kind of made me mad, too, because at the time I had to move out of state and still took the time to read the work, and, I'd thought I was reading a short story and instead was sent 140 pages.

Anyway maybe some people don't want constructive criticism when they don't like betas...maybe they just want hand-holding?

Claudia Gray · Dec 30, 2007

I, too, think more people came down in favor of having betas and/or crit groups. Having alternate perspectives is, IMHO, a must.

Some people find them demoralizing or confusing, but I think that the problem there is not having a beta or a crit group. It's either not having the right betas or crit group, or exposing the work before it's ready for such review (and before we're ready to hear it.)

Thrillride · Dec 30, 2007

Susan Lanigan said : "I outlined the plot of one of my stories to my mother. She thought it was are perverse and immoral and that all the characters were degenerate."

I almost spit my mocha all over the computer!LOL!
There is no way I would have my mom beta for me. She can read it when it's publishable, thanks.

I think it's awesome that your mom came up with a great ending for you.

Betas and crits are absolutely essential. I have zero idea why someone would not find them useful. That being said, I have made some wrong choices in crits. One of them is the type of person who isn't looking at "your" story, but rather, creating theirs. It did me no good whatsoever to have some one say that they didn't like the color of her hair. or ask why she was driving the car she was driving - they would make it a ___ (whatever).

This type of person doesn't know how to actually crit or beta. So, I do think it's important that you chose people who can help you with what you are looking for. I use a mix of a couple of people who are writers and then I pass it on to two people who are readers. Readers of my genre to be specific. I think this is important. Of course, other people who read outside your genre may pick up the book (God willing), however, in critting I think you need the like-minded.

For instance, I critted a couple of chapters for someone who writes fantasy. I probably helped her with a few things like POV and story flow. But then she asked me if anything in the chapters sounded cliche and I was stumped. I don't read fantasy. Any fantasy. I have no idea if there were cliches or not. It was all new to me...so nope! No cliches!

(Helpful, no?)

~Thrill

Susan Lanigan · Dec 30, 2007

Ah she may disapprove, but she can't help having an opinion all the same

Sage · Dec 30, 2007

I adore having betas, and not just one, but many so I can see the trends in suggestions. One beta can be hit or miss. If one beta has a problem with a tiny part of the novel that colors the rest of it, or if one is not particularly crit-oriented, then you might get feedback that does not exactly tell you anything. If you have several betas, and they all say, "The beginning is too slow," or "That plot point does not make sense," you know that you have a problem. If one says, "Won't that alienate people?" and everyone else is saying, "Oh my god, that's awesome!" you're probably okay.

ORION · Dec 30, 2007

I am agented and published and still have the very same beta readers. I just used one for the first few chapters of my new novel. My agent still gets polished work. What's different now (between being published and not) is that I have lots of beta reader offers -
The thing I don't do is have my betas micromanage. I give them specific tasks.
I think it's important not to give betas work that is in rough draft form and I don't give readers chapter by chapter but that's just me.

BarbaraKE · Dec 30, 2007

Danthia said:
I've noticed a lot of comments recently about beta readers and crit groups and a larger percentage than I'd expect act like it's bad to have either, especially after your first sale.

One caveat here...
This applies to good beta readers and crit groups.

I think your caveat is important.

First of all, I think beta readers are important. I profusely thank anyone (including people here) who have taken the time to read parts/all of my novel and make comments. I've incorporated many of their suggestions.

But I can see two problems with beta readers.

The first one I've run into is that they don't agree. Everyone is different. I tend to run into situation where half of them love a particular scene and the rest hate it.

Which leads into the second problem. We, as authors, have to accept that we can't please everyone. We tend to take criticism to heart (as do most people) and do backflips trying to 'fix' something that shouldn't be changed. Books are not written by committee.

David I · Dec 30, 2007

I wasn't aware there was a widespread prejudice against betas or critique groups...

I personally don't find crit groups to be useful except for looking at the opening chapters of a book and telling me if it engages them. But I love my betas when I have a finished ms. to hand them.

CheshireCat · Dec 30, 2007

Which leads into the second problem. We, as authors, have to accept that we can't please everyone. We tend to take criticism to heart (as do most people) and do backflips trying to 'fix' something that shouldn't be changed. Books are not written by committee.

Since I'm one of those who consider betas useful for some writers -- but a potential problem, especially once an aspiring writer turns pro, I wanted to comment. But somebody else got in ahead of me with the above point -- a very valid one.

Books are not written by committee, and yet all through the industry, people will be questioning what you did, how you did it, and why you did it. From agent to editor to copy editor to reviewer to reader (oh, the joys of email!), you will be second guessed. Some of those people will have smart, helpful comments -- and some will just have an opinion.

If you have, as the above poster notes, been turning backflips to please the first readers of your work, why would you stop turning those backflips when the industry pros start picking your work apart?

When do you stop? When does your work become your work, your story, your voice? After the betas? After your agent's input? Your editor's? The copyeditor's? Are you going to be haunted by a review that trashes your favorite character or pours scorn on your idea of a plot twist?

Assuming, for a moment, that you're a competent writer with sufficient technical skills and have the necessary creative imagination to tell a story, the only thing that's going to set you apart from all the other skilled and creative writers out there is your voice.

And voice, especially in the beginning, is a fragile thing, easily influenced and even destroyed.

The point I made in another thread is that most non-industry beta readers are not going to understand, much less value, voice. That isn't what they're looking at. They'll tell you if they find the story believable, if your sentences get tangled, if they like or dislike a character, and whether the ending worked for them.

And that's fine. But if you as the writer make changes based on these opinions, you are already allowing your voice to be influenced. You told your story a specific way, and because a few readers didn't like this or that, you made changes. In making those changes, you may well smooth out the wrinkles and polish all those rough edges -- and end up with something pretty and well-written, and utterly bland.

Look, it isn't always true that industry pros have more than an opinion to offer (believe me). Some baby editors and young, aggressive agents out there also lack the experience or even awareness of voice. But they're still more likely to "get" it than your average beta reader. And they're less likely to request or suggest changes that will damage the "something unique" that originally drew them to your work.

If you as a writer feel betas are necessary to your process, then so be it. What works for you, works for you.

Just be aware of the dangers.

And for those who say we can't possibly be objective about our work, you're entirely right. We can't, not without time and distance. But to rely on others is not, IMO, the answer. Because as writers, we can learn to develop our storytelling instincts, through sheer practice.

We won't get everything right. We won't please every reader. But we'll learn to view our work solely through our own prism, and that really is the only way to develop a unique voice.

My opinion.

BarbaraNC · Dec 30, 2007

Not harsh whatsoever. We were in a workshop together and we had all critiqued each other according to how the instructor directed the workshop. The fact was her mystery was not suspenseful and her ending was a scooby doo ending. If someone is sending me a mystery to critique then they better want the truth! Certainly they don't have to change it according to what I say...but, I'm not going to fail to suggest changes if the ending is totally unbelievable.

Edited to add that I certainly didn't give her my feedback in the way I'm giving it now! Gentle suggestions. But facts were facts. She had more than one reader so she was free to toss my critique out the window. But if my book just didn't work plot wise I would want to know.

mollyluna said:
I think assuming that she wanted hand-holding and not a good critique is a bit harsh. Did you normally read her genre? Perhaps her writing style wasn't a good match for you. There are millions of readers. To expect a writer to completely change their novel for one's opinion is rather unrealistic. I certainly would never overhaul my whole novel for one person's opinion. And change the whole plot? Whoa. That's like saying your novel is worthless. I'm sure she appreciated the time you took, but maybe because of your move, the tone was not appreciated. It's hard to take criticism too, especially when the reader bashes your plot right off the bat. Hopefully, you'll find someone who appreciates your criticisms.

BarbaraNC · Dec 30, 2007

mollyluna said:
I would never use a critique group, probably because I've read two books by two different literary agents who call them the kiss of death.

I think they certainly can be. It depends on the group. I mentioned my workshop in another post and there was always a lot of disagreement about each person's piece. You kind of learned who to take seriously and who to thank politely and move on. However, you can find great people in these critique groups who will honestly and with credibility tell you when something isn't working (and that is needed, as I said in my other post).

I do agree with the other poster though that voice can be squelched. I think it takes time to realize when someone's critiquing your voice vs. when someone had a valid point about story. Now in my workshop, which doesn't meet regularly, the instructor strongly disagreed with some critique of my short story...he saw some things the way I intended, and I left them. I think that was the right thing to do. But, there were some criticisms that most of the workshop shared, and I think in that case it's wise to go back and see if there's another way to do it. (I ended up cutting one scene completely and now it's much better).

Esopha · Dec 30, 2007

CheshireCat said:
When do you stop? When does your work become your work, your story, your voice? After the betas? After your agent's input? Your editor's? The copyeditor's? Are you going to be haunted by a review that trashes your favorite character or pours scorn on your idea of a plot twist?

Assuming, for a moment, that you're a competent writer with sufficient technical skills and have the necessary creative imagination to tell a story, the only thing that's going to set you apart from all the other skilled and creative writers out there is your voice.

And voice, especially in the beginning, is a fragile thing, easily influenced and even destroyed.

This is why I never crit voice-related issues when I beta. When I do, it's because the "problem" is something that really, really bothers me, and even then I'll make a point to tell the author that it's a voice issue and nothing more.

I probably wouldn't notice the voice issue if I wasn't reading as a beta reader, anyway.

I think it's pretty easy to see when someone's critting your voice, too, and I think it's important for every writer to be able to make that distinction. Is it a problem with the book, or a "problem" with my voice? Is it something that I think should be fixed?

Let it simmer.

cethklein · Dec 30, 2007

I wouldn't use a crit group but mainly because I would be afraid of having too many conflicting opinions. Having multiple opinions is good but having them at the same time could lead to confusion.

I have one beta on my book right now. I think having a single beta is a good thing, it allows you to focus more on their critiques. Granted, this only works if your beta is competent. I am fortunate as my beta is exceptional. She not only is perfect for this book as she fully understands the subject matter, but she also is very well versed in the art of writing which helps exponentially. She has not only pointed out some mistakes I have made structurally, but she has also helped me correct some issues of "practicality" in the story.

But as they say, to each their own. Maybe some people prefer crit groups. i suppose it's all down to how well you take criticism and how well you can handle multiple opinions.

Thrillride · Dec 30, 2007

To be honest, I find all these different opinions to be terribly confusing. LOL!

I wonder what the closest answer is (there cannot be a perfect one since we are all different). I have over 100 books on writing (from noveling to agenting to cheerleading) and most of them say "find a crit group". I am not in one currently, but I keep my eyes open. (I have been in them before, though).

I do have one (sometimes two) wonderful writer(s) that I have to say, truly point out some stuff I just damn well missed. My first friend who gets a looksee at chapters always ends up showing me something that certainly makes the chapter tighter. I just love having that second set of eyes. Sometimes I send it to one other writer friend.

I let one or two others see it much later because I want to see if a fresh set of eyes becomes "hooked" to my story and if they care about the characters.

I just like little extra input. I think it would suck to try to send out and have them point out things that could have been easily caught by a beta. I am wondering if I could actually polish it as much as possible without extra eyes. Would it slow things down for me on the publishing end? Would I get more yeses because I passed it by a beta? I dunno.

On the VERY other hand. I did just the opposite a year ago. I had SO many opinions (including posting a chapter on AW - that was nuts for me) that I became extremely confused with all the different thoughts (and a lot were six on one, half a dozen on the other)....I had no idea what I was suppose to change or what I was suppose to leave alone. I not only did that on AW, I did it with quite a few other people I knew - with the same chapters. Oy vey.

Freaked me out.

Never again.

I don't know if I could give up my last few pacifiers, though.

~Thrill

blacbird · Dec 30, 2007

Susan Lanigan said:
I outlined the plot of one of my stories to my mother. She thought it was are perverse and immoral and that all the characters were degenerate.

Kewl.

caw

Voyager · Dec 30, 2007

CheshireCat said:
When do you stop? When does your work become your work, your story, your voice? After the betas? After your agent's input? Your editor's? The copyeditor's? Are you going to be haunted by a review that trashes your favorite character or pours scorn on your idea of a plot twist?

Assuming, for a moment, that you're a competent writer with sufficient technical skills and have the necessary creative imagination to tell a story, the only thing that's going to set you apart from all the other skilled and creative writers out there is your voice.

And voice, especially in the beginning, is a fragile thing, easily influenced and even destroyed.

The point I made in another thread is that most non-industry beta readers are not going to understand, much less value, voice. That isn't what they're looking at. They'll tell you if they find the story believable, if your sentences get tangled, if they like or dislike a character, and whether the ending worked for them.

And that's fine. But if you as the writer make changes based on these opinions, you are already allowing your voice to be influenced. You told your story a specific way, and because a few readers didn't like this or that, you made changes. In making those changes, you may well smooth out the wrinkles and polish all those rough edges -- and end up with something pretty and well-written, and utterly bland.

This is brilliant, CC. One of the things I try to be so very careful with when I offer to do a beta is to determine whether or not I like a certain author's 'voice'. If I don't, I shouldn't be betaing, if I do, I will do everything within my power to respect that voice when I am doing beta. Time and time again I see these generic, pat betas done where the same advice is offered regardless of genre, style and voice, and it really frustrates me to see newer writers try to deal with that. Thank you so much for stating this so eloquently.

Sage · Dec 30, 2007

Voyager said:
This is brilliant, CC. One of the things I try to be so very careful with when I offer to do a beta is to determine whether or not I like a certain author's 'voice'. If I don't, I shouldn't be betaing, if I do, I will do everything within my power to respect that voice when I am doing beta. Time and time again I see these generic, pat betas done where the same advice is offered regardless of genre, style and voice, and it really frustrates me to see newer writers try to deal with that. Thank you so much for stating this so eloquently.

I will finish the book even if I realize early on that it's not my style for some reason, but I will let the writer know. "Keep in mind that I don't usually read romances, but..." or "Just so you know, I'm not the biggest fan of present tense..." or whatever it is. I let them know if it's likely to affect my reading, but I also let them know if I think something I said might seem like it's 'cuz it's not my style/voice, but I really feel it's a big problem beyond that. I think keeping the writer informed is really the best way to handle that and then they can choose whether your opinions are too biased or worth listening too.

Voyager · Dec 30, 2007

That is a good idea. Honest is the best policy. What I usually end up saying is that I'm not really qualified to comment on the style of that genre but that I'd be more than happy to do more of a proofread.

Sage said:
I will finish the book even if I realize early on that it's not my style for some reason, but I will let the writer know. "Keep in mind that I don't usually read romances, but..." or "Just so you know, I'm not the biggest fan of present tense..." or whatever it is. I let them know if it's likely to affect my reading, but I also let them know if I think something I said might seem like it's 'cuz it's not my style/voice, but I really feel it's a big problem beyond that. I think keeping the writer informed is really the best way to handle that and then they can choose whether your opinions are too biased or worth listening too.

ishtar'sgate · Dec 30, 2007

Beta isn't a dirty word but beta readers just aren't right for me. I attended many many creative writing courses, taught by published authors and acting coaches. They taught me to lose my selfcensorship, be objective and above all put a fair bit of distance between my first draft and my final edits. I don't pick at the manuscript. I leave it alone for several months then come back to it with fresh eyes and a big red pen. I have no pet scenes or words or phrases. Everything is fair game for the chopping block. That said, I've been a beta reader and I understand why some writers depend on them for an objectivity they don't feel they have. But I work better alone, right to the bitter end.

Linnea

TrainofThought · Dec 30, 2007

I don’t think beta readers are taboo it’s just that you should trust and know they’re compatible to your needs. How do you do that with people you don’t know, or even people you do? Not only that how does a new writer know what to change. Yes, we can go with gut feeling, but sometimes our feelings cloud our judgment when you have 2 or 3 betas firing off rules or changing your words to suit them.

I attempted beta readers and I would NEVER do it again unless it is someone I know. This answers the whole ‘trusting your beta.’ I can’t take crits from someone I don’t know because most of the time they are learning along with me and tend to push their writing style on me. Also, if you don’t know them they don’t feel they owe you an explanation regarding non-responses. It makes more work for me to decipher whether their crit is to better my WIP, or hurt it. As a new writer, I’m not going to cause additional worry over breaking a few rules or being bombarded by frivolous crits.

To sum it up, IMHO, beta readers and crit groups are good if you know and trust the individuals. If they match your wants, read your genre, and their opinions make your adventure flourish then you as a writer will prosper.

Thomma Lyn · Dec 30, 2007

I love my beta readers / critique partners -- I've had quite a few, but the ones who have stuck with me (and with whom I've stuck

) are knowledgeable, forthright, and respectful.

That last -- mutual respect -- is, to my mind, the most important thing for the long haul.

BarbaraKE said:
But I can see two problems with beta readers.

The first one I've run into is that they don't agree. Everyone is different. I tend to run into situation where half of them love a particular scene and the rest hate it.

My beta readers / critique partners are all writers, but each person writes in a different genre, with a different style. Needless to say, they don't always agree. But I like that! I don't expect to agree with all feedback I'm given. But what I do like are beta readers / critique partners who give me feedback that makes me think.

Which leads into the second problem. We, as authors, have to accept that we can't please everyone. We tend to take criticism to heart (as do most people) and do backflips trying to 'fix' something that shouldn't be changed. Books are not written by committee.

Absolutely not. And therein lies the challenge -- to walk the line between taking seriously the feedback you are given but knowing and/or figuring out what is pertinent to your book / characters and what to discard.

Nobody's feedback is "objective" -- everyone's opinions on a given work will be colored by their tastes, their experiences, their ideology, philosophy, what have you.

What a writer gains from having beta readers / critique partners are (hopefully) knowledgeable perspectives that differ from her own and which can help her spot potential problems in a story before attempting to launch it into the world.

When Did "Beta" Become a Dirty Word?

Danthia

Danger Jane

CACTUSWENDY

An old, sappy, and happy one.

Susan Lanigan

BarbaraNC

Claudia Gray

Thrillride

A Suburban Farmer

Susan Lanigan

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

ORION

Sailed away years ago

BarbaraKE

David I

CheshireCat

Mostly purring. Mostly.

BarbaraNC

BarbaraNC

Esopha

bam pow zap.

cethklein

Thrillride

A Suburban Farmer

blacbird

Voyager

Ribbed for your pleasure.

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Voyager

Ribbed for your pleasure.

ishtar'sgate

living in the past

TrainofThought

A flowering bud of bitchiness

Thomma Lyn

Cat Wrangler