Critiquing a friend's MS

HopelessDreamer · Dec 2, 2007

A friend recently sent me the manuscript of his novel via email. He wrote: "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it". However, as I started to read I noticed a lot of grammatical errors, run-on sentences, passages with little relevance that didn't make a lot of sense, infodumps, etc. So I wrote a detailed critique on one of his chapters just to give him some examples. I'm afraid to show him this because he's the type of person who will say: "You're wrong - I did this all on purpose". He thinks it's perfect and is trying to get it published. I want him to get it published, but it's in such a state that no literary agent will accept it. Should I show him my critique, give him pointers, etc?

Provrb1810meggy · Dec 2, 2007

Maybe you should send an email saying, "I found a few grammatical errors, sentences, some passages I think that need clarity or cutting, but wasn't sure if you wanted a critique. If you are interested, I can send them over." If he says to send them over, then do so. If he argues, don't get into arguing back. Just tell him that those were your opinions, but it his piece and he should feel free to discard your thoughts.

reenkam · Dec 2, 2007

Yup, I second what Meg said exactly.

LeeFlower · Dec 2, 2007

I would tell him that you noticed some serious grammar problems and other areas that need improvement, and ask him if he wants to see your critique. If he says no, or tries to argue with you about it, tell you it's perfection itself, etc, you can just say "nevermind, then," and keep it to yourself. If he says he does want to see it, you can send it to him. And if he wants to argue with you about it after seeing it, you can say something like "These are just my observations. You're under no obligation to act on them if you don't agree," wish him the best in his quest for representation, and tell him you don't want to discuss it any further.

That's what I would recommend, anyway. But then, I'm one of those people who won't even let friends beta my stuff unless I'm sure they'll tell me what they really thought of it and how to make it better, so my understanding of his viewpoint may be inadequate to formulating a response.

LeeFlower · Dec 2, 2007

Oop, Meg beat me to it-- her post went up while I was writing mine...

maestrowork · Dec 2, 2007

HopelessDreamer said:
A friend recently sent me the manuscript of his novel via email. He wrote: "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it". However, as I started to read I noticed a lot of grammatical errors, run-on sentences, passages with little relevance that didn't make a lot of sense, infodumps, etc. So I wrote a detailed critique on one of his chapters just to give him some examples. I'm afraid to show him this because he's the type of person who will say: "You're wrong - I did this all on purpose". He thinks it's perfect and is trying to get it published. I want him to get it published, but it's in such a state that no literary agent will accept it. Should I show him my critique, give him pointers, etc?

"You can critique if you want but I'd rather you just enjoy it" means "buzz off and don't even bother to send me anything, just tell me I'm brilliant."

He doesn't want a critique.

You have to ask, is it worth damaging your friendship?

a_sharp · Dec 2, 2007

I agree with Ray about keeping the friendship, but you might send him here to AW for a third-party beta as a suggestion. If he'll take that step, he'll get a fair critique without risking your relationship.

benbradley · Dec 2, 2007

maestrowork said:
"You can critique if you want but I'd rather you just enjoy it" means "buzz off and don't even bother to send me anything, just tell me I'm brilliant."

He doesn't want a critique.

You have to ask, is it worth damaging your friendship?

I have a more indirect idea that may both save your friendship, AND help him get the MS in shape (if he'll take the neccesary critiques and learn from them, which from his tone seems doubtful, but who knows):

"Hey, great work! [or perhaps something a little more toned-down, but still encouraging] I don't know enough about critiquing others' work to give any advice about yours, but I know where there's some people who would, if you really want to check to see how publishable it is, they're on the forums at absolutewrite.com."

CheshireCat · Dec 2, 2007

a_sharp said:
I agree with Ray about keeping the friendship, but you might send him here to AW for a third-party beta as a suggestion. If he'll take that step, he'll get a fair critique without risking your relationship.

Yes.

I wouldn't send that critique if I were you. What Maestro said is perfectly true: he doesn't want one from you.

Shady Lane · Dec 2, 2007

Stop reading the crappy manuscript.

Tell your friend it was fantastic.

There. You don't have to torture your writer's sensibilities and your friend hears what he wants to hear. Win/win.

Andre_Laurent · Dec 2, 2007

What BenBradley said.

edit: I once had someone approach me and ask for a crit. The piece was terrible...beyond terrible. I spent four hours on the piece and the crit. I even toned it down and didn't give it the shred it needed, just stuck with the technical errors. The person has not spoke to me since.

astonwest · Dec 2, 2007

If he's not interested in your honest opinion, I'd ask if you truly want to keep your friendship...my best friend critiques my work all the time, and he'll tell me when he thinks something I've written is crap.

wayndom · Dec 2, 2007

a_sharp said:
I agree with Ray about keeping the friendship, but you might send him here to AW for a third-party beta as a suggestion. If he'll take that step, he'll get a fair critique without risking your relationship.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!

David I · Dec 2, 2007

Either don't respond--which you are free to do, since you were told he didn't want a critique--or write one of those notes where everything you say is true, but can be read two or more ways:

"I just can't say enough good things about your novel. I admit that I've never read anything quite like this before. There were big surprises on every page, and the style is inimitable. Few published novelists write at this level. I can't praise this too highly!"

On second thought, listen to Maestro.

KTC · Dec 4, 2007

I would go with what Meg said way up thread. Tell him you found a few things and would he mind if you sent him something. Frankly, if he thinks it's perfect though...I don't know if I would bother. I'm so tired of people showing me their dreadfully pitted work and not wanting me to point out their glaring errors. It's painful. Depending on how close you guys are, you should at least approach him and try to tell him a few changes would make it 'a bit more perfect'. Don't waste too much time, though...some people can never be helped.

BruceJ · Dec 4, 2007

maestrowork said:
"You can critique if you want but I'd rather you just enjoy it" means "buzz off and don't even bother to send me anything, just tell me I'm brilliant."

He doesn't want a critique.

You have to ask, is it worth damaging your friendship?

Maestro's got a good point. The struggle I'd have with this, though, is that like "Friends don't let friends drive drunk." - "Friends don't let friends submit junk." As Maestro says, your friend clearly doesn't want you to crit, but just like a sauced friend may not want you to take his car keys, he needs you to--with tact (see my signature quote from Pope) as I'm sure you would. If he can't take it, and/or doesn't get over it, how much of a friend was he in the first place?

allenparker · Dec 4, 2007

my suggestion

Just thank him for letting you read it and then, "If you would like a more detailed response and a few helpful hints, let me know."

Just a simple way of walking out.

E.M.Sterling · Dec 4, 2007

I guess I am a little different. Anyone who will stop being your *friend* over something like honesty, isn't worth being friends with. I know I give out my manuscripts to my friends to read so that I can get a critique. Did it flow? Were there stupid errors (there always are). I know that I have some serious weaknesses that I cannot see in my own work and need another pair of eyes to catch it for me. Anyone who is serious about what ever profession they want to do will listen to critiques and learn from them. This does not mean rip the poor guy apart. Be constructive. If you cannot be constructive in any critique don't do it.
As a writer, what I write is very personal to me. I am sure that goes for a lot people. So, it's important that we handle a critique with care, but honest care. This means write something positive then *after* that write a comment for constructive criticism. Give more than one example of a possible change, several if possible. This way you are not saying that something is *wrong*. You are saying, there is a BETTER more powerful way to express this idea let's explore them.
I think that a lot of folks do get carried away with critiques and feel that being asked to do them gives them the power to decide right from wrong. Some things are black and white but most aren't. What we fail to realize when we do those critiques is that people don't want to be told how *you* do it. They want to be told: Is this as good as it could be?

JMHO

Twizzle · Dec 4, 2007

He's already told you he'd rather you didn't crit, to just read it.

As a good friend, I'd respect him and his wishes. If he asked for advice about preparing it for submission, I'd refer him. But I'd only offer the advice, if asked.

NeuroFizz · Dec 4, 2007

I go with the honest approach (a la Megan and Kevin). You have found problems with the manuscript. You should tell him. Don't give any further feedback unless he then asks for it--give him the choice of further consideration. Saying it's wonderful just to get out of the tight situation is disingenuous and not very friend-like. I'd tell him he has some mechanistic problems that will probably land it in the slush pile if he submits it as is, and that if he wants independent opinions to go to the AW Share Your Work forum. If you finished the story and find it has storytelling potential (or is a good story outright), be sure to give him that encouraging boost. But, if you couln't get through the story because of all of the mechanical problems, you should tell him that, too. In a critique, it's always helpful to tell the author what he/she has done right as well as what he/she hasn't done so well.

If he agrees to let you have at it, send him the first chapter or two so he can see your critting style and the depth of your suggestions. If his ego gets in the way of self-improvement, he'll likely call it off at that point and you'll be off the hook for going through the whole thing.

KAP · Dec 4, 2007

It's interesting how differently we all react. Beauty of a discussion board.

"You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it." That's less than direct from the friend. IF this is a good friend I wouldn't mind helping with the substantial effort a full-novel critique demands, I'd demand clarity -- if not when the friend asked, now. If this isn't a good friend who I'd want to put myself out for in such a big, big way or if I didn't have the time or energy for it, I'd gladly do as the friend would rather and keep my impressions to myself.

kap

CaroGirl · Dec 4, 2007

If you're a real friend to this person, you'll at least make an attempt to tell him the problems with his ms. If he doesn't want to hear it, at least you'll know that you tried.

Perle_Rare · Dec 4, 2007

BruceJ said:
The struggle I'd have with this, though, is that like "Friends don't let friends drive drunk." - "Friends don't let friends submit junk."

I don't quite agree with this statement. To prevent a friend from driving drunk and possibly maiming or killing himself and likely others in the process is one thing but to give the same amount of importance to a poorly written manuscript is a bit excessive IMHO. Unless there's some underlying pathological issues that cause the author to go ballistic if anyone criticizes his work, the only things likely to be damaged here are an ego and a friendship.

If the friendship is worth preserving, then there's lots of good advice up above that provide that. Maestro's or AllenParker's, for example. If, however, the author in you just cannot bear to co-exist on this earth alongside a poorly written manuscript, then feel free to critique and risk the friendship.

Chances are, if your friend submits the manuscript as is, he'll suffer from rejection. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that the changes you would recommend would get him published either. The result will likely be the same: a learning experience for him.

Bufty · Dec 4, 2007

Was the manuscript sent unsolicited?

Did you offer to critique it?

Hey man, did you think I was going to fall for that stunt of deliberate errors in the first chapter? Nice try. Read your manuscript - good luck with it. Cheers.

See what comes back - if anything.

HopelessDreamer said:
A friend recently sent me the manuscript of his novel via email. He wrote: "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it". However, as I started to read I noticed a lot of grammatical errors, run-on sentences, passages with little relevance that didn't make a lot of sense, infodumps, etc. So I wrote a detailed critique on one of his chapters just to give him some examples. I'm afraid to show him this because he's the type of person who will say: "You're wrong - I did this all on purpose". He thinks it's perfect and is trying to get it published. I want him to get it published, but it's in such a state that no literary agent will accept it. Should I show him my critique, give him pointers, etc?

Shadow_Ferret · Dec 4, 2007

Personally, if it was my friend and they had said "You can critique it if you want, but I'd rather you just enjoy it" then I'd simply read it and enjoy it if I could.

Then I'd say, "I enjoyed it" with no buts.

If they push for "well, what did you really think of it?" then I'd give them the "there were some grammatical errors."

I wouldn't ever give him a bonafide critique unless they pushed for it and I'd also, as someone else suggested, give them the addy to this website. If they are really interested in improving as a writer, let them make that step.

Critiquing a friend's MS

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