Firepower versus Supernatural Creatures

Higgins · Nov 25, 2007

It seems like according to basic SciFi/Fantasy conventions, it really doesn't take a lot of firepower to kill or disable most supernatural beings (assuming they can be hit at all): one silver bullet is enough to dispatch a werewolf, one wooden stake in the heart will kill a vampire...

Hence those subgeneric moments when vampire hunters or a guy with a shotgun or a chainsaw cuts a swath through evil beings.

Does this seem interesting or just comic? My MC is about to clear a small town of all supernatural evil with nothing but a flashlight, a grenade launcher, some flares and an assault rifle. Good idea or inherently dull?

benbradley · Nov 25, 2007

When was a silver bullet first used to kill a supernatural being (in fiction, of course)? I'm wondering if a silver bullet was really hard to come by at the time, so that using one was a much greater effort than it might be today. Actually, I don't know where you'd get one now, but it wouldn't be too much trouble to melt some silver down to use in a reload, though it would be an expensive bullet.

And it seems if you're going to pound a wooden stake into someone's chest it would have to be made out of some tough hardwood - a pine stake is likely to break while trying to pound it in, and this would surely be about the time the vampire regains consciousness. It would sure be a good lesson for the next person looking to kill the vampire, though, if you've got a dead body with its blood sucked dry, with a nearby hammer and broken, beat up pine stake.

Isn't that supernatural stuff mostly low-tech? I'm tinking oing these things shouldn't be easy for the protagonist.

OTOH, things such as chainsaws could be a scourge, much like the overuse of modern antibiotics that have cause the emergence of drug-resistant strains. Imagine the overuse of chainsaws in modern fantasy causing the evolution of chainsaw-resistant supernatural beings...

MattW · Nov 26, 2007

Depends on what type of supernatural beings - do they have powers or anatomical differences that would make them hard to kill with one shot? Are they zombies who would ignore a few extra holes and lost limbs?

With the grenade launcher and the flares, I'm hoping these creatures are extra flammable. A few jam jars full of gas or kerosene could be fun too.

As for the assault rifle, my opinion is that a wide selection of weapons feels like a video game. On the flip side, if he has access to a grenade launcher, he should be able to put his hands on assault weapons pretty easily, so why not do both (from the character's POV at least).

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 26, 2007

I think the movies and Buffy have transformed staking into something comical. She's just touch their chest and the vampire would dissolve. I thought in Stoker's book Dracula the stake had to be something like 3 feet long of a hard wood and had to be pounded in with a mallet. Hardly easy in my mind.

And I'm not sure where the silver bullet entered the picture, that too, has taken on comical aspects, especially since it seems to kill vamps and that never was the case. That only worked with werewolves, and it was usually an item of silver and you bludgeoned them with it. At least that's how the early Lon Chaney Jr. The Wolf Man worked.

In the past, supernatural beings weren't easy to kill and that's why they were scary. Today they've been turned into silly pests easily dispatched with a pencil or some silver glitter.

III · Nov 26, 2007

I think there's a certain appeal in banality, and even comically simple hooks such as a silver bullet or a bright light (Gremlins) can be engaging to a reader if the rest of the story and characters are done right. As long as there's a real element of danger, I don't care if your protag stabs demons in their belly buttons with candy canes to kill 'em.

Higgins · Nov 26, 2007

MattW said:
Depends on what type of supernatural beings - do they have powers or anatomical differences that would make them hard to kill with one shot? Are they zombies who would ignore a few extra holes and lost limbs?

With the grenade launcher and the flares, I'm hoping these creatures are extra flammable. A few jam jars full of gas or kerosene could be fun too.

As for the assault rifle, my opinion is that a wide selection of weapons feels like a video game. On the flip side, if he has access to a grenade launcher, he should be able to put his hands on assault weapons pretty easily, so why not do both (from the character's POV at least).

I'm drifting more in the not so much supernatural as just plain crudely vicious...like the chainsaw horror guys who are just locals gone bad. I have to admit the oddity of chosing a chainsaw over a weapon that at least doesn't make a lot of noise and/or have to be started up and has no range etc....but I've already written some scenes where the bad guys with chainsaws run into good guys with Mosin-Nagants (big powerful primitive crude but efficient bullet-clip bolt-action rifles with big bayonets)...it had the virtue of being a very quick fight...a lot of bad guys didn't even get the gas into their chainsaws fuel tanks before it was all over but the dying.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 26, 2007

III said:
I think there's a certain appeal in banality, and even comically simple hooks such as a silver bullet or a bright light (Gremlins) can be engaging to a reader if the rest of the story and characters are done right. As long as there's a real element of danger, I don't care if your protag stabs demons in their belly buttons with candy canes to kill 'em.

I guess I've always strived for accuracy within the legend. If the demon was created using summoning oils from Christman trees grown near the North Pole, then I think the candy cane in the gut would be appropriate.

Otherwise, I can't think of any demons that can be dispatched that easily.

I think that's what I like about the show Supernatural. In its first season or so they struggled to get rid of the supernatural beings. Had to learn the folklore and background of each baddie in order to dispatch it. There wasn't one universal way, expect maybe salting and burning the corpse to get rid of a ghost.

Death Wizard · Nov 26, 2007

Steven Erikson (The Malazan series) goes into immense and fascinating detail along the lines of your original question. Have you read any of this series? If not, check out Book One. I think you'll like and relate to the way Erikson handles it. He has very powerful magical beings, yet most of them (except for the few that are godlike) can be killed by ordinary means, and are in fact often bullied around my "ordinary" people.

Glen T. Brock · Nov 27, 2007

How to kill ghosts, goblins, and monsters of all types

Hello folks,

Many years ago I read an outstanding short story by Robert E. Howard entitled PIGEONS FROM HELL where a sheriff dispatches twin voodoo witches (gigantic murderous birds) with either shots from his 44 revolver or shotgun. He didn't just kill them--he blew them to pieces.

Bram Stoker's DRACULA, on the other hand, could turn into fog instantly, making any kind of firearm impractical. The real trick of dispatching vampires is to catch them while they are 'asleep' during the day and punching them out with a nice wooden stake.

Robert Bloch did it best. He trapped a vampire and pulled its teeth out, taking it prisoner. He also did something similar with a werewolf but I don't remember the story that well. His character was a monster collector. Bloch's sly wit made him one of my favorite authors.

Robert Heinlein, in GLORY ROAD, made an ogre eat himself. I guess it died of indigestion. Anyway, it makes one heck of a mental image.

The method is part of the madness. I recently wrote a novel where a ghost was talked to death, so to speak.

Glen T. Brock

Higgins · Nov 27, 2007

Glen T. Brock said:
Hello folks,

Many years ago I read an outstanding short story by Robert E. Howard entitled PIGEONS FROM HELL where a sheriff dispatches twin voodoo witches (gigantic murderous birds) with either shots from his 44 revolver or shotgun. He didn't just kill them--he blew them to pieces.

Bram Stoker's DRACULA, on the other hand, could turn into fog instantly, making any kind of firearm impractical. The real trick of dispatching vampires is to catch them while they are 'asleep' during the day and punching them out with a nice wooden stake.

Robert Bloch did it best. He trapped a vampire and pulled its teeth out, taking it prisoner. He also did something similar with a werewolf but I don't remember the story that well. His character was a monster collector. Bloch's sly wit made him one of my favorite authors.

Robert Heinlein, in GLORY ROAD, made an ogre eat himself. I guess it died of indigestion. Anyway, it makes one heck of a mental image.

The method is part of the madness. I recently wrote a novel where a ghost was talked to death, so to speak.

Glen T. Brock

Cool stuff!!! For the moment I've settled on having the more intelligent supernatural creatures kill off the chainsaw locals while the MC tries to figure out what is going on.

FennelGiraffe · Nov 27, 2007

Glen T. Brock said:
Robert Heinlein, in GLORY ROAD, made an ogre eat himself. I guess it died of indigestion.

As it ate itself, the ogre got smaller and smaller until it disappeared.

benbradley · Nov 27, 2007

FennelGiraffe said:
As it ate itself, the ogre got smaller and smaller until it disappeared.

I don't remember "Glory Road" well enough to remember that, but this reminds me of a Larry Niven short story named "Convergent Series" which features both supernatural and mathematical elements.

Zelenka · Nov 27, 2007

I've always thought the low-tech thing was more a case of making it difficult, originally at least. You had to have a certain type of wood or a certain type of metal or plant or carry out some specific action (for instance beheading the vampire after staking it). Staking a vampire, for example, makes it necessary to get pretty close to a being that's stronger and faster than a human and has sharp teeth (unless you have one of those crossbow sort of things from Van Helsing), and for an ordinary, non Buffy person that'd be a bit intimidating I think.

I've got the same kind of problem though - I'm still working on a believable way to dispatch my vampires. I'm thinking of fire, unimaginative though that is, because it fits in with other stuff that's going on.

I've never understood the appeal of a chainsaw as a weapon, as it's always seemed very cumbersome (maybe because I'm only 5'4" and not that strong) and messy.

Lhun · Nov 30, 2007

benbradley said:
When was a silver bullet first used to kill a supernatural being (in fiction, of course)? I'm wondering if a silver bullet was really hard to come by at the time, so that using one was a much greater effort than it might be today.

Interesting question. Oldest thing i know of is in some folktale from the Grimm brothers collection. It was witch though, not a vampire, and when the protagonist shot her without effect he ripped off some silver buttons from his jacket and used those in his musket. (They worked)
So, i'd guess it's at least 200-300 years old, if not much older, since silver arrows or swords are imaginable as well from before firearms were in use.

Lhun · Nov 30, 2007

Sokal said:
I'm drifting more in the not so much supernatural as just plain crudely vicious...like the chainsaw horror guys who are just locals gone bad. I have to admit the oddity of chosing a chainsaw over a weapon that at least doesn't make a lot of noise and/or have to be started up and has no range etc....but I've already written some scenes where the bad guys with chainsaws run into good guys with Mosin-Nagants (big powerful primitive crude but efficient bullet-clip bolt-action rifles with big bayonets)...it had the virtue of being a very quick fight...a lot of bad guys didn't even get the gas into their chainsaws fuel tanks before it was all over but the dying.

I applaud you for that. Imo the value of simple, overpowering brute force is too often neglected, especially in the horror subgenre.
Ghost are one thing, but a very physical, if supernatural, being should die just as anyone else would if put through a meatgrinder. And chopping of heads or burning to ashes sound pretty lethal to me too, no matter how undead you are. (unless you're a phoenix of course)

Sassee · Nov 30, 2007

Sokal said:
It seems like according to basic SciFi/Fantasy conventions, it really doesn't take a lot of firepower to kill or disable most supernatural beings (assuming they can be hit at all): one silver bullet is enough to dispatch a werewolf, one wooden stake in the heart will kill a vampire...

Hence those subgeneric moments when vampire hunters or a guy with a shotgun or a chainsaw cuts a swath through evil beings.

Does this seem interesting or just comic? My MC is about to clear a small town of all supernatural evil with nothing but a flashlight, a grenade launcher, some flares and an assault rifle. Good idea or inherently dull?

Grenades are uber powerful no matter what creature you happen to be

And actually that whole situation sounds pretty interesting. I'd read your novel based on that little tidbit.

Also, I think you have to find a nice middle ground. Sure, you don't want to have something killed by accidental pencil stabbing, but then again it becomes tiresome and unrealistic (lol, in fantasy?) to have things be so hard to kill it becomes ridiculous. Anyone see Jason X? Yeah, I wish I hadn't, either.

Find a nice middle ground. Don't make it too easy, but don't make your hoards of evil things be unstoppable or downright annoying in their ability to live through things.

Lookit! I keep ressurecting week old threads...

Bmwhtly · Nov 30, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
I think the movies and Buffy have transformed staking into something comical. She's just touch their chest and the vampire would dissolve. I thought in Stoker's book Dracula the stake had to be something like 3 feet long of a hard wood and had to be pounded in with a mallet. Hardly easy in my mind.

There is a middle ground.

For (a rather low-brow) example, Dusk till Dawn has there vampires being killed by any wood passing through the heart.
so arrows do the job.
And those vampires certainly weren't weak, in fact they could survive even if the heart was removed (until the heart was staked with a pencil).

The decision of how unkillable your vampires are going to be depends largely on how many there are, I should say.
In Dracula it is only One vampire they're after. So having him be Very hard to kill makes for a more interesting story.
But in swarms, easier kills allow more carnage.

If you see what I mean.

Sassee said:
Grenades are uber powerful no matter what creature you happen to be

Yup.
It's like werewolves who are immune to anything other than silver bullets. Immune or not, if you blast them into little pieces, they won't heal. Right?

ChaosTitan · Nov 30, 2007

Bmwhtly said:
It's like werewolves who are immune to anything other than silver bullets. Immune or not, if you blast them into little pieces, they won't heal. Right?

Unless you're the werewolf in The Monster Squad.

You get blown up, put yourself back together, and finally get a silver bullet in the heart.

"You see? Only one way to kill a werewolf."

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 30, 2007

benbradley said:
When was a silver bullet first used to kill a supernatural being (in fiction, of course)?

I just read something that credits Lon Chaney Jr.'s The Wolf Man with the first use of silver as a means to kill a lycanthrope. Even the previous Werewolf of London made no mention of silver.

If true, I find it facinating how something so "recent" has turned into something that seems the "norm," like its always been that way.

Pthom · Nov 30, 2007

I can think of a supernatural being(s) that would be difficult to eradicate with even a bomb: a strain of microbes or, maybe virii. Too small to see, and everywhere.

"Quick, Doc Hanson! Get out the book of magic spells!"

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 30, 2007

ectoplasmic germs. Hmm.

Pthom · Nov 30, 2007

Well, I had been thinking of alien ones, but sure, why not ectoplasmic germs?

Zoombie · Nov 30, 2007

On the stakage being too easy: From Dusk Till Dawn pointed out that the vampire's bodies were mushy and soft, which was why Sex Machine could literally tear a vamp's arm off with his bare hands.

And Buffy is some kind of magical Slayer super strong super being thing, hence easy stakage. Now, why the regular, human characters can get away with it is beyond me.

So, if you set up reasons for easy staking, then you can get away with it. If you don't, better bring the mallets...or the stake gun.

I read a story once that put an awesome twist on silver and werewolves: It acted as a kind of radiation sickness, causing hair loss, massive internal bleeding and eventual death. It took a while, wasn't pretty, and meant most werewolf hunters would slip silver dust into a werewolf's drink then sneak away.

I just can't remember what the story was...

Also, the best ever story of people with weapons clearing out huge amounts of undead badguys would be a tidbit in WWZ, where a Japanese Otaku found a katana in his neighbors apartment then started killing zombies for the rest of the war.

james1611 · Nov 30, 2007

that depends...

Sokal said:
It seems like according to basic SciFi/Fantasy conventions, it really doesn't take a lot of firepower to kill or disable most supernatural beings (assuming they can be hit at all): one silver bullet is enough to dispatch a werewolf, one wooden stake in the heart will kill a vampire...

Hence those subgeneric moments when vampire hunters or a guy with a shotgun or a chainsaw cuts a swath through evil beings.

Does this seem interesting or just comic? My MC is about to clear a small town of all supernatural evil with nothing but a flashlight, a grenade launcher, some flares and an assault rifle. Good idea or inherently dull?

That depends on where that flashlight ends up.

Supernatural creatures have to have some cool weakness or else it would be dull. Baddies kill everyone-the end...boring!

It's not necessarily the premise (good grief, most are rehashed anyway), but it's how you tell the story that matters.

Some people chew gum--others fasten papers using a paperclip--and still others are handy with a role of duct tape, but only McGuyver could make a bomb out of the stuff!

James

astonwest · Dec 1, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
I think the movies and Buffy have transformed staking into something comical.

Because movies and television have always been all about making things more realistic over sensational...

Firepower versus Supernatural Creatures

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