A Reader's Rights vs. A Writer's Perogative

WittyandorIronic · Nov 24, 2007

So, I had a favorite series. This series of 12 or so books started off great. The plot, world, characters, and style were all fresh and riveting. I ate the books up, buying them in hardback most often, and rolled through them one after another. Books 1-4 were GREAT. Books 5-7 were...well, not as great. But everyone has a bad day, or decade, so whatever. I disliked where the character was headed, but as it is a long series I thought she might pull through. Books 8 & 9 just plain sucked. The writing was bad, the plot had holes large enough to throw a hardback book through, and the main character had been corrupted. She had started out as someone you could relate to, cheer for, and admire, and in the latter half of the series she turned hard, ugly, and just plain weird. Book 10 I glanced at in the store, realized it was more crap, and never looked back.

The more I thought about it, the more disturbed I was. As a reader who invested emotion, time and money, I felt cheated.

As a writer, I felt robbed! This author had created a new and exciting world, and then destroyed it. Her characters hadn't "evolved", they had devolved. There were parts of the last books that I could point at and honestly say was some of the laziest, most unimaginative crap I had ever seen, and I almost felt slighted. I felt as if she was a fraud. I felt like she was throwing away the success I coveted!

So now to my point. lol.

Do authors have an obligation to their readers? Where is the line of that obligation, and how would you, as a writer, feel about crossing it? If the characters and story were begging to go one way, and your fans another, who would you follow?

As much as I dislike this author for the direction she chose, I feel a little guilty for all my negativity when I think about my own creations, and how hard it would be to not follow where the story led me.

scarletpeaches · Nov 24, 2007

I think I know who you're talking about and the author is in grave danger of disappearing up her own arse.

Lyra Jean · Nov 24, 2007

Inquiring minds want to know. Who is this author?

scarletpeaches · Nov 24, 2007

Laurell K Hamilton, I'd bet.

Sage · Nov 24, 2007

In my opinion, it should be a little of both. As a writer, you should enjoy the novel yourself, but you also have a responsibility to the readers. You don't have to cater to the way they expect the story to go--that might disappoint them too--but you should try your best to give them something they'll enjoy as much as you do. If the readers have already invested themselves into the 'verse you created, you don't want to change the characters so drastically that they wouldn't recognize the new from the original. Yes, change and growth are good, and it's nice to have consequences from previous books, but the readers fell in love with the original characters. And certainly you want to make sure that the plot holes are filled in, even if you already have an established fan base. It is your responsibility to write the best book you can, for yourself and your readers.

WittyandorIronic · Nov 24, 2007

SP is correct. lol. I didn't mention her only because I didn't want this to be a thread about all the things I think she disastorously did wrong (though they are legion), but more about who "owns" the success of a book, and has responsibility for that success. The obvious answer is shared, between author and readers, and I like what Sage said about responsibility to write the best book you can.

Gillhoughly · Nov 24, 2007

I'm sure it's LKH, too.

But when it comes down to it--she's stated this at panel talks at conventions--she owns the character and can do what she likes with it.

And people keep buying the books.

I think they're the ones who don't know where to find good Internet porn.

You don't have to buy the books. You don't have to read them.

Chances are excellent she's not going to change her formula since it's making her money. She doesn't owe anyone anything. She kicks out the words, but isn't twisting any arms to get people to read them. Since sales are good the publisher will keep buying from her and screw the quality.

But make this work for you.

When I read a wildly popular writer I figured out pretty quick that regardless of sales and praise from fans that the work was a load of crap. I threw the book across the room and declared "I can do better than THAT."

Then I did.

scarletpeaches · Nov 24, 2007

I have to say this, then I'll leave off the slamming of LKH.

She said in her blog recently that if Agatha Christie loved Poirot as much as she loves Anita and Merry, she would never have written Curtain, would never have done to him what she did. Ever.

And if Doyle had loved Holmes the way she loves Anita and Merry, he would never have killed him off and he only brought him back for the money it earned him. He clearly didn't love Holmes; Holmes wasn't real to him the way Anita Blake is to LKH.

So it's not only the bad writing but the astounding arrogance of the woman, speaking about Christie and Doyle in that way, claiming she loves her characters more than they loved theirs, that makes me want to throttle her.

Birol · Nov 24, 2007

At NASFic, last summer, I attended a panel and they provided another perspective on these things. When an author becomes successful, they suddenly are under a lot of pressure. Not only are the fans waiting for the next book, but several people's jobs and careers are dependent on them not only producing, but producing regularly. Oftentimes, the editors don't want the writer to move too far from the patterns, or formula, that has worked in the past. Additionally, there are more severe time constraints placed on the writer. They are expected to produce a first draft of a salable novel in four months, while editing the previous novel, looking at the galleys for a third, responding to fans, networking, etc. On top of regular life, it doesn't always leave a lot of room for writers to perform at their peak level of creativity.

Being successful can be a double-edged sword and a case of be careful what you wish for.

brokenfingers · Nov 24, 2007

I initially thought you were talking about Robert Jordan (until I saw the "she" part), as his series suffered from almost the same exact problem.

Gillhoughly · Nov 24, 2007

Hm. I've got a (modestly) popular series character and a few fans who hang on my every word for it.

But if I worried about what they thought about this or that thing that happens to my hero I'd never write another word again.

I learned that from an actor friend. He's got a fanatical female following who swoon and squee every time he raises an eyebrow. I asked him if that ever influenced his work. He said, "I never think about that, I focus on the character, otherwise nothing happens."

You can agree or disagree with what another writer does, but ultimately you focus on your own words and figure out what works best for you.

What works best for me is to entertain myself and afterwards hope other people find those words entertaining as well.

WittyandorIronic · Nov 24, 2007

*snipped*

Gillhoughly said:
When I read a wildly popular writer I figured out pretty quick that regardless of sales and praise from fans that the work was a load of crap. I threw the book across the room and declared "I can do better than THAT."

Then I did.

Agreed, and doing so. lol. I shamelessly admit that one of my strong motivations for writing is the poor state of novels I sometimes see. Not only can I write better, but apparently I must do so to get the books I want. lol. Of course I have only felt that strongely on occasion.

Conversely I have come across books and been blinded by the talent, and wanted to climb deep into a non-writing hole.

Gillhoughly said:
She doesn't owe anyone anything.

This is what I guess I am asking. Does she owe her fans something? As a reader, I say yes. It is my time, emotion, and money she is after.
I am a strong believer in ethical consumerism. I don't buy what I dislike or disagree with, and I lavishly (when able) buy what I do believe in. That means buying brand new hardcovers. So, I guess in a way you are right. She doesn't owe anyone anything, but no effort + abandoning her fans = career demise. And while I am sure she is fine now, and will be for some time, eventually it will bite her in the ass.

On my bad days as a reader & a writer I feel as follows:
If she isn't writing for her fans than who the hell is she writing for? Herself? Fine, then stop publishing crap, and leave another book shelf slot open to the rest of us. I know that sounds harsh, but that is what I am driving at. If your goal is to be published, to have a fan base, to gain their loyalty to KEEP you published, aren't you responsible to them?

Hmmm... I am torn over this issue, and have been for some time. lol. I feel passionately that she shouldn't get away with literary homicide. At the same time I feel strongly that my own stories will be written the way they and I decree, and screw everyone else!

ishtar'sgate · Nov 24, 2007

WittyandorIronic said:
Do authors have an obligation to their readers? Where is the line of that obligation, and how would you, as a writer, feel about crossing it? If the characters and story were begging to go one way, and your fans another, who would you follow?

I suspect the author has tired of her subject and should have moved on to something else. Probably had obligations to her publisher, though. Not sure authors have an obligation to their readers but if they want to keep their readers they need to take that into consideration when veering away from what their fans have come to expect. As a writer I'd think long and hard before altering a series and sending it off in another direction. I know how much I hate that when I follow a series. It usually puts me off the author altogether and I never read anything else they write.
Linnea

astonwest · Nov 24, 2007

WittyandorIronic said:
SP is correct. lol. I didn't mention her only because I didn't want this to be a thread about all the things I think she disastorously did wrong (though they are legion), but more about who "owns" the success of a book, and has responsibility for that success.

Guess I should have held off on my PM until I read through the whole thread.

I would have figured it was Patricia Cornwell and her Scarpetta series...

Even though I'm not anywhere near as popular as these folks, I often find myself at the mercy of readers who want certain things to happen. A good example is the desire for them to see a romance happen between my main character (in the series) and the female lead in many of my novels. Not to say that won't ever happen, but people get impatient.

As a writer, I have a reason for every thing I do in my work...so, I'd vote for a writer's choice over the desire of a reader...

arodriguez · Nov 24, 2007

the author owes nothing. You have to follow the story. You have t o go with what feels right. The minute you start writing something because you think it will impress people, BAM! you are toasted like an armadillo in iraq.
Haven't read LKH yet, did read Robert Jordan. I was disappointed at times of certain..addditions..to the book, however i loved the first half of teh series so much, i NEEDED to know what his ending was. Would have still bought the last one, just because i had to know.

maestrowork · Nov 24, 2007

That's why I don't write series based on characters (unless there's a definitive arc such as the Harry Potter series -- once you're done, you're done). If I were successful, I wouldn't want that kind of pressure and obligation to pump out sub-par work just to satisfy the publisher's demand. Suddenly you become a product line, but novels are not potato chips -- not to me anyway. I know there are authors who put out the same stories (just change the characters and the settings) and their readers will still buy. I don't aspire to be that kind of authors.

Birol · Nov 24, 2007

WittyandorIronic said:
Agreed, and doing so. lol. I shamelessly admit that one of my strong motivations for writing is the poor state of novels I sometimes see. Not only can I write better, but apparently I must do so to get the books I want.

WittyandorIronic said:
This is what I guess I am asking. Does she owe her fans something? As a reader, I say yes. It is my time, emotion, and money she is after.

Would you look at what you just said? You claim that one of the main reasons you write is for yourself. That's what writing to "get the books [you] want" amounts to.

Yet, then you don't even take a breath before you state that the writer is obligated to give the reader what they want.

WittyandorIronic said:
I don't buy what I dislike or disagree with, and I lavishly (when able) buy what I do believe in.

When it comes to books, this is true of most readers.

WittyandorIronic said:
On my bad days as a reader & a writer I feel as follows:
If she isn't writing for her fans than who the hell is she writing for? Herself? Fine, then stop publishing crap, and leave another book shelf slot open to the rest of us. I know that sounds harsh, but that is what I am driving at. If your goal is to be published, to have a fan base, to gain their loyalty to KEEP you published, aren't you responsible to them?

Given that you've stated you're writing because you don't like the other books you read, you'd best remember this. If you make it, there will come a time when another, younger, hungrier writer whines "Why don't they step aside for me if all they're going to do is publish crap?"

You'll never please everyone. There will always be someone who thinks that your writing sucks and doesn't deserve to be published.

WittyandorIronic · Nov 24, 2007

These are both my quotes:

As much as I dislike this author for the direction she chose, I feel a little guilty for all my negativity when I think about my own creations, and how hard it would be to not follow where the story led me.

Hmmm... I am torn over this issue, and have been for some time. lol. I feel passionately that she shouldn't get away with literary homicide. At the same time I feel strongly that my own stories will be written the way they and I decree, and screw everyone else!

I think I have explicately stated I am torn between both sides of the concept, and understand that my reader's side demands are hard met by my own writer's side convictions. Hence the solicitation of other's views. If that wasn't clear before, hopefully it is now.

maestrowork · Nov 24, 2007

I think writers and readers are not mutually exclusive. The best writers are also readers. We can't just write for ourselves without regard to our audiences. At the same time, we can't write just to please -- and no, we can't please everyone anyway. I've always believed that a good writer must be able to be true to him- or herself but at the same time, understand the market. When there's a disconnect, there's a problem.

Gillhoughly · Nov 24, 2007

WittyandorIronic

Again, she doesn't owe her fans anything. There's enough out there who still love her stuff and they'll keep her income nice and healthy for decades to come.

But you need not contribute to it.

I will read a bloody awful bad book that I hate ONLY to figure out what NOT to do in my own writing.

I will also read a fantastic, I totally LOVE this writer's book to figure out what won me over and how to do it myself.

Since there's plenty of the god-awful crap around, may I please introduce you to a series worthy of your time and affection? Nine books and counting and they just keep getting better.

(No--it's not mine, though I wish I'd thought of it first. And I'm not mentioning my stuff as I can get more done on this forum by keeping my massive ego from spouting off about this thing or that thing. Or even that *other* thing over there.)

swvaughn · Nov 24, 2007

Ooh, I guessed LKH and I haven't even read any of her stuff . . . I didn't hear about it until people were already starting to complain that it had degenerated into the type of story I'm really not interested in. Probably a shame--perhaps I should consider reading the first few, give it a chance.

And I've always felt Anne Rice guilty of the same thing with the Vampire Chronicles. Oh, how I used to love Lestat, before he wept (and wept and wept and wept). But she made a very strident point of defending what she did to her characters on Amazon for all the world to see. So, we can safely cast her vote on the side of authors not writing for reader sensitivities.

I'm on the fence, myself. At this point I'd welcome the opportunity to even have some readers for which to make the decision, so I'm leaning toward pleasing them more. It will be terribly hypocritical of me to change my mind in the future. It's a tough tightrope to walk, and I'm trying to get a decent pole to hold now so I don't fall off.

sunna · Nov 24, 2007

Not being published, I don't have the perspective I'd sure like to have on this subject; but as a reader I know I got frustrated with LKH and a few others and just stopped buying the books, which is the only comment I feel I need to make to an author about where they've gone with a series.

I don't feel like an author owes me anything as a reader, beyond writing the best novel they can write. Where they take a series, how their characters develop, and into what (i.e., badass vampire hunter to badly drawn nympho with an endlessly growing arsenal of invincible superpowers), is totally their business, and I'll trust them to do it well and with something in mind at every plot twist. As a writer, that's all I feel I (would) owe fans of a series I wrote: my best effort for every book. When it's clearly not a best effort - or, hell, even a half-hearted attempt to spell correctly, stay true to the characters you created and tie up your plots into something cohesive, I'll bitch for a bit and just move on to the next thing, as I would expect readers to do if it were my book they hated. As for reader input into characters, relationships, and plot lines - I doubt I'd ignore it, particularly if I got the same feedback from a bunch of people, but my vision of where the series was going would definitely come first.

Of course, put in the light of a four-month time frame (thanks for posting that Birol, I had absolutely no idea - eek!), writing anything at all sounds daunting, to say the least.

CheshireCat · Nov 24, 2007

On my bad days as a reader & a writer I feel as follows:
If she isn't writing for her fans than who the hell is she writing for? Herself? Fine, then stop publishing crap, and leave another book shelf slot open to the rest of us. I know that sounds harsh, but that is what I am driving at. If your goal is to be published, to have a fan base, to gain their loyalty to KEEP you published, aren't you responsible to them?

One, she's writing for herself, following her own creative vision, however much you or other readers may not agree with where that's taking her and her characters. Two, no writer intentionally publishes crap, however much some aspiring writers and some readers would like to believe that. And three, if she were to stop publishing tomorrow, "the rest of us" probably wouldn't have a chance of occupying her place on the publisher's list because that would go to someone a hell of a lot closer than any beginner to bringing in the kinds of sales numbers she does on a regular basis.

Hmmm... I am torn over this issue, and have been for some time. lol. I feel passionately that she shouldn't get away with literary homicide. At the same time I feel strongly that my own stories will be written the way they and I decree, and screw everyone else!

If you don't like her work, don't like the direction the series has taken, then stop buying and reading the books. Or, if you're disgusted but still want to know how the series goes, add insult to injury, and buy the books used.

The author owes the reader her best efforts to entertain -- and that's all.

Look, I've bailed on numerous authors and even more series, some early on and some after years of loyalty. I don't blame the authors for the fact that they lost me; they were following their creative vision, and it isn't their fault that my vision diverged from theirs. They have to be true to their work just as I'm true to mine.

Period.

That said, as a writer I paid attention to why I bailed on various authors and series. I saw no need to explain any of it to them, or to visit online review sites or forums and bitch about it -- I just took mental note. Over the years, I've figured out what I really, really don't like to happen with favorite characters and storylines.

And when I'm working on my own stuff, I keep that in mind. No, I don't change my work; the truth is that I'm extremely unlikely to do any of the things I hate because I hate them. Probably wouldn't have done them anyway, but now I'm conscious of why. And now, if I come to a creative crossroads with a character or storyline, I think about what I'm about to do, and if it's something I'm reasonably sure most readers aren't going to like because I'm not happy about it myself, I try to find a way to make it more palatable for all of us.

But at the end of the day, all I owe to my readers are my best efforts. Which is exactly what I owe to myself.

Simple Living · Nov 24, 2007

WittyandorIronic said:
The more I thought about it, the more disturbed I was. As a reader who invested emotion, time and money, I felt cheated.

As a writer, I felt robbed! This author had created a new and exciting world, and then destroyed it. Her characters hadn't "evolved", they had devolved. There were parts of the last books that I could point at and honestly say was some of the laziest, most unimaginative crap I had ever seen, and I almost felt slighted. I felt as if she was a fraud. I felt like she was throwing away the success I coveted!

As a reader, you have every right to feel cheated. No matter what your reason is. Even if others don't feel the same way. You felt cheated.

As a writer, why would you feel robbed? Why would anyone's writing make you, as a writer, feel robbed? I'm not seeing this side of your argument. What you described feeling as a writer are still, in my opinion, valid feelings for feeling cheated as a reader.

Do authors have an obligation to their readers? Where is the line of that obligation, and how would you, as a writer, feel about crossing it? If the characters and story were begging to go one way, and your fans another, who would you follow?

Click to expand...

You'll get varying opinions here, but yes, I feel that authors do have an obligation to their readers when it comes to doing a series. It's the readers who put authors where they are. All the talent and creativity writers possess means nothing if they don't have readers to buy their books and appreciate them. Readers tend to follow authors in their journeys. They can make or break an author. There's a responsibility that comes with that in writing a series.

Writers can write whatever they want. Every book can be different. Writers need to be true to themselves. But, when it comes to a series, the readers deserve careful consideration.

As much as I dislike this author for the direction she chose, I feel a little guilty for all my negativity when I think about my own creations, and how hard it would be to not follow where the story led me.

Maybe the guilt comes from knowing that you might be over-reacting just a bit? Personally, I find that to be the case when I do the same thing. Just remember how hard it is to be a writer. Then, imagine how much harder it is to be an author. You want to please everyone, but, as in life, it's impossible. The best you can do as an author is to please yourself, your publisher and then, hopefully, your readers!

Simple Living · Nov 24, 2007

maestrowork said:
I think writers and readers are not mutually exclusive. The best writers are also readers. We can't just write for ourselves without regard to our audiences. At the same time, we can't write just to please -- and no, we can't please everyone anyway. I've always believed that a good writer must be able to be true to him- or herself but at the same time, understand the market. When there's a disconnect, there's a problem.

This is exactly why it's more difficult to be an author than it is to be a writer.

A Reader's Rights vs. A Writer's Perogative

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