A word count norm? If there is such a thing...

jannawrites · Nov 15, 2007

There's probably no way to figure this, but is there a standard ballpark word count for a novel? (I'd be happy with your opinions.) I'm at roughly 35,000 now... just started chapter 15... and feel like I'm about 2/3 through the book. My loose outline concludes at chapter 23, but I've already seen that I'll have to add a few more. Thought I've been telling myself I'd stop when the story's told, I want to have some idea of what I'm aiming toward. Do I need to be more specific in what I've lined out for myself?

III · Nov 15, 2007

Rule of thumb 80k - 100k. Thumbs may vary.

jannawrites · Nov 15, 2007

Holy cow, that's a lot!

Jersey Chick · Nov 15, 2007

It depends on genre and/or subgenre... Category romance, for example is roughly 55k words. Single titled between 85-100k depending on publisher. Fantasy is (I think) roughly 100-120k. Whatcha writin'?

jannawrites · Nov 15, 2007

All signs point to mainstream.

Teige Benson · Nov 15, 2007

I agree with III - I think you should be shooting for that 80,000 to 100,000 range.

Writing short seems to be making its rounds of late.

WendyNYC · Nov 15, 2007

Can you add an interesting subplot?

I keep reading that 60,000 is the bare minimum for mainstream.

Joe Moore · Nov 15, 2007

Here's a general rule-of-thumb for fiction word count:

Epic: A work of 200,000 words or more.
Novel: A work of 60,000 words or more.
Novella: A work of at least 17,500 words but under 60,000 words.
Novelette: A work of at least 7,500 words but under 17,500 words.
Short story: A work of at least 2,000 words but under 7,500 words.
Flash fiction: A work of less than 2,000 words.

First time authors should error on the side of caution since longer manuscripts cost more to print and publisher must factor that in when deciding to offer a contract. Good luck.

III · Nov 15, 2007

I trust Joe's thumb

jannawrites · Nov 15, 2007

WendyNYC said:
Can you add an interesting subplot?

I keep reading that 60,000 is the bare minimum for mainstream.

I've got a couple of those.

60k I can do. To go much beyond that, though?

My first chapter was 21 pages; I just wrote and wrote. But each chapter after that has run much shorter - because that's where it felt right to break - sometimes 6 or 7, sometimes 10 or 11 pages.

Jersey Chick · Nov 15, 2007

60,000 leans close to category (at least in romance - I don't know in mainstream) - which can limit your choice of publishers. There might be a few secondary characters you can build a subplot around. I'd suggest write to the end of your outline, take a look (kind of a rough edit) and see - something might pop out as a subplot, or you might see scenes that can be fleshed out.

Shady Lane · Nov 15, 2007

Don't know if you could pitch this as YA, but, if you feel like it, YA mainstream usually runs from 40-80K.

Rowdymama · Nov 15, 2007

I don't think it's wise to keep adding subplots until you get the "right" wordcount. Books come in all sizes, there's no definite rule. Look at Wind in the Willows, Animal Farm, Bridges of Madison County. More depends on the content and the story. Here are some questions to ask yourself:

1. Am I letting my characters off too easy? Are they conflicted enough?

2. Do I know my characters well enough to write convincing internal monologue?

3. Do I know enough about writing emotions to explore those of my characters' fully?

4. Do I have enough backstory, or so much that it drowns out all the action?

5. Have I written in generalities instead of specifics?

I hate to see writers aping Stephen King, the World Master of Adding Fluff because while he is pretty good at it, they are usually not. Go ahead and finish your first draft, at whatever length, then bring it to me and we'll see if it needs more bulk.

jannawrites · Nov 15, 2007

Shady Lane said:
Don't know if you could pitch this as YA, but, if you feel like it, YA mainstream usually runs from 40-80K.

Def not a YA book.

Wraith · Nov 16, 2007

Finish it first and then take a good look at it. Some people tend to write short first drafts that need fleshing out, which may be your case. You may find that you need to explore your characters more, expand some sections, develop conflicts etc. Otoh, it may also be that that's the length your story needs, and it wouldn't do it any good to add words just because. Any book length can be marketed imo, it's just that you'll have a harder time doing it as a new author. But books come in all sizes and the story's the master, so if your story's good and you care for it, it will eventually work out I'm sure.

Good luck with it. Keep pushing to the end first without worrying about the wordcount just yet, ok?

Bufty · Nov 16, 2007

If this is your first novel - my advice is simply concentrate on finishing it -nothing else. It can be tweaked after that. If you think you can manipulate word count on the way I think your story will get totally lost.

jannawrites · Nov 16, 2007

Bufty said:
If this is your first novel - my advice is simply concentrate on finishing it -nothing else. It can be tweaked after that. If you think you can manipulate word count on the way I think your story will get totally lost.

I agree! I don't want to get so lost amid the word count that I forget the story I'm trying to tell. Thanks, Bufty!

I appreciate everyone else's advice, too.
Janna

jannawrites · Nov 16, 2007

Joe Moore said:
First time authors should error on the side of caution since longer manuscripts cost more to print and publisher must factor that in when deciding to offer a contract. Good luck.

I didn't catch this the first time through, Joe. It's a great point to keep in mind.

Prawn · Nov 16, 2007

I am for 90K for a first draft.

Sean D. Schaffer · Nov 16, 2007

jannawrites said:
There's probably no way to figure this, but is there a standard ballpark word count for a novel? (I'd be happy with your opinions.) I'm at roughly 35,000 now... just started chapter 15... and feel like I'm about 2/3 through the book. My loose outline concludes at chapter 23, but I've already seen that I'll have to add a few more. Thought I've been telling myself I'd stop when the story's told, I want to have some idea of what I'm aiming toward. Do I need to be more specific in what I've lined out for myself?

If you're on your first draft, just finish the story and get it down on paper. If it's too short when you're done with it, you might be able to add a subplot or two. Just make sure not to overdo your writing. In my own case, I have a tendency to do a short first draft and then try to lengthen it. But my problem is that a lot of the time, I will actually do too much, and make the work too wordy just to make it longer.

The best way I've seen to add word count is to add a subplot or two, and insert them into the story as needed.

Also, I find that I need some form of outline to make a good novel-length work. However, I also find if I put too much detail into my outlines, I end up stifling my creative side. This keeps me from doing my very best on my work.

Whatever you do, remember the saying constantly quoted by James D. Macdonald on this board: if it works for you, it's right.

Best wishes to you for your novel WIP.

Joe Moore · Nov 17, 2007

Here's some insight from an agent at BookEnds as to how you can be rejected due to word count. And other issues.

jordijoy · Nov 17, 2007

jannawrites said:
There's probably no way to figure this, but is there a standard ballpark word count for a novel? (I'd be happy with your opinions.) I'm at roughly 35,000 now... just started chapter 15... and feel like I'm about 2/3 through the book. My loose outline concludes at chapter 23, but I've already seen that I'll have to add a few more. Thought I've been telling myself I'd stop when the story's told, I want to have some idea of what I'm aiming toward. Do I need to be more specific in what I've lined out for myself?

Manuscript Length
Definition: The length of a manuscript (word count) to determine what term to call a piece of fiction is often confusing to aspiring authors.
Use in industry: The industry standard for length of manuscript varies by type and genre. A good definition was provided by Jamesaritche on these boards, so I’m using his post to give general guidelines:

By Cathy C (of this post)
Short Short: Under 2,000 words
Short story: 2,000--7,500 words
Novelette (General Fiction): 7,500--15,000 words
Novelette (SF & Fantasy): 7,500--17,500 words
Novella (General Fiction): 15,000--30,000 words
Novella (SF & Fantasy): 17,500--40,000 words
Novel (General Fiction): Over 30,000 words
Novel (SF & Fantasy): Over 40,000 words

jannawrites · Nov 17, 2007

Joe Moore said:
Here's some insight from an agent at BookEnds as to how you can be rejected due to word count. And other issues.

That's a fantastic post. Thanks for sharing it with us!

WordGypsy · Nov 17, 2007

Joe Moore said:
Here's some insight from an agent at BookEnds as to how you can be rejected due to word count. And other issues.

But I just got a partial request from Bookends and mine's only 63,000. Just finish it and see where you are. I finished mine at 53,000 and added 10,000 in rewrites. Some people need to shoot for 90,000 because they're cutters. Me, I'm an adder.

J. R. Tomlin · Nov 17, 2007

Sorry, but the concept of selling a SF/F of 40,000 is just not realistic. Those may have been reasonable figures at one time, but they're not now.

I don't know where Jamesritchie got them or when, but they are seriously out of whack for what is expected now. Baen (for example) won't even look at one under 100,000 words.

A word count norm? If there is such a thing...

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