Word Count Ethics

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

Hola

So. I just finished the first draft of this YA ms. Now, I'm obviously not querying it yet and it will definitely grow a bit in revisions, but let's just pretend for a minute....

Microsoft Word gives me almost 26,000 for the word count.

250 x #pages gives me 40,500.

Obviously, 40,000 is way more marketable than 26,000. So could I legally (you know what I mean) query this as a 40K ms?

It feels like cheating somehow...

JoNightshade · Nov 5, 2007

Since the word count feature is now so widespread, I think most people just assume that's what you're using. And yeah, if you know it's only 26, and you say it's 40... that would strike me as a little dishonest.

Sounds like you need some descriptions in between all that dialogue, Miss Lane.

Azure Skye · Nov 5, 2007

I would go with Word since it seems that just about everybody and their brother uses it because as, Jo said, it might make you look a little sneaky or sumpin'.

Devil Ledbetter · Nov 5, 2007

Try making your paragraphs more than one sentence long.

Loves ya, Ms. Shady. :e2flowers

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

JoNightshade said:
Since the word count feature is now so widespread, I think most people just assume that's what you're using. And yeah, if you know it's only 26, and you say it's 40... that would strike me as a little dishonest.

Sounds like you need some descriptions in between all that dialogue, Miss Lane.

Devil Ledbetter said:
Try making your paragraphs more than one sentence long.

Loves ya, Ms. Shady.

I need better friends.

(but I like this Miss Lane/Ms. Shady thing. I feel very authoritative.)

ishtar'sgate · Nov 5, 2007

Shady Lane said:
Hola

So. I just finished the first draft of this YA ms. Now, I'm obviously not querying it yet and it will definitely grow a bit in revisions, but let's just pretend for a minute....

Microsoft Word gives me almost 26,000 for the word count.

250 x #pages gives me 40,500.

Obviously, 40,000 is way more marketable than 26,000. So could I legally (you know what I mean) query this as a 40K ms?

It feels like cheating somehow...

So, how long do you think you'll be able to fool them?

There's little point in marketing it at almost double the actual word count! What I can't figure out is how your guesstimate can be off by such a large margin or are you exaggerating for emphasis? In any case, be honest. It is what it is.
Linnea

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

Not exaggerating for emphasis.

I honestly am not trying to be, uh, shady, here....I've heard people say the 250 X #pages is the preferred method. I DID NOT DREAM THIS.

WendyNYC · Nov 5, 2007

But, wait, I thought agents preferred the 250xpages formula because it was more accurate in terms of actual spacing.

Is this not the case?

qdsb · Nov 5, 2007

You're using a lot of reallylongwords in that one, aren't you?

KIDDING!

I agree with the others. Use Word's word count.

Devil Ledbetter · Nov 5, 2007

Wasn't it pointed out here relatively recently that the pages x 250 count is for Times New Roman, and the pages x 200 count was for courier?

I vaguely recall being relieved by how much closer the latter method came to matching my word processor's wordcount feature.

ETA, Shady does have a short-paragraph style and lots of (excellent) dialogue, so it's not surprising to me that using pages x 250 would inflate her actual wordcount a great deal.

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

WendyNYC said:
But, wait, I thought agents preferred the 250xpages formula because it was more accurate in terms of actual spacing.

Is this not the case?

I need a neon sign pointed to this post.

Dev, 200 X pages would be 33,000...still better than what I got.

RLSMiller · Nov 5, 2007

WendyNYC said:
But, wait, I thought agents preferred the 250xpages formula because it was more accurate in terms of actual spacing.

Is this not the case?

That's what I thought. The MS word count is a total waste of space in my opinion. I mean, it counts "a" the same as "antidisestablishmentarianism"... how can you rely on that to give you an accurate representation of book length?

RLSMiller · Nov 5, 2007

Devil Ledbetter said:
Wasn't it pointed out here relatively recently that the pages x 250 count is for Times New Roman, and the pages x 200 count was for courier?

I vaguely recall being relieved by how much closer the latter method came to matching my word processor's wordcount feature.

ETA, Shady does have a short-paragraph style and lots of (excellent) dialogue, so it's not surprising to me that using pages x 250 would inflate her actual wordcount a great deal.

It was pointed out, but it was pointed out wrongly. Courier has long been 250xPage count. TNR is more like 300xPage count.

Devil Ledbetter · Nov 5, 2007

Shady Lane said:
I need a neon sign pointed to this post.

Dev, 200 X pages would be 33,000...still better than what I got.

But that's because of your writing style, IMO. And that is going to give them a closer estimate for what to expect when they print the book.

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

KTC said:
I've been called thick before, but this takes the cake...even for me. I don't understand. Why would you even dream of querying after the first draft? What if you get interest but you don't have anything to send them. I'm obviously missing something. You say you will have more words when you're done...does that mean you think you will get to the 40K? Why are you thinking about word count and query now? I'm lost. And you will only get away with it until they check the wordcount anyway. That takes about 2 seconds.

No way am I querying now. I was just curious, had the question on my mind, felt like asking now.

Might get to 40K. No clue. But then I'd have the same issue with 40 vs. 60 or whatever.

I make more sense now yes?

Provrb1810meggy · Nov 5, 2007

She doesn't plan on querying it until she's done revising, KTC.

ETA: Ah, Shady said it first!

ORION · Nov 5, 2007

The question that will not die...
My agent and editor both use "word" word count. I specifically asked them this question since it always comes up. They both said "word"

250 words a page actually only works if you like have ...250 words a page on average. Take a few pages and count- I bet you have considerably less and like the others have mentioned - probably have lots of dialogue and short paragraphs.
Again TNR 12 pt font.
I know a gadzillion people will come flying over here to claim a more accurate word count - the fact is - ya gotta be closer together than 26,000 and 40,000...
Bottom line is if you try to fool ANYONE- you will get nailed. It's really obvious when your manuscript is read-- just the fact that you're asking the question means you're uncomfortable with it. Have a beta reader read it and let you know if the story is light.

ColoradoGuy · Nov 5, 2007

Here's what Miss Snark said about it. It sums things up pretty well.

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

KTC said:
Yes. I think so. I thought you were going to start querying and saying you had 40 in the hopes that that is what you would end up with. Now I gotcha...I think. I just went through this with the novel I just sent out. I wanted to make the font a nice 16 so it would look larger but then I thought the publisher is just a wee bit smarter than that. That word count button is just too accessible.

That's a little risky even for me.

Orion--thanks. I know the 1st draft is underwritten (my 1st drafts always are) and it'll bulk up later. But my thing is....once it's finished, if an agent reads the ms and is like, "This is too sparse," then they don't like my writing style. And that's cool and everything. I'm a sparse writer. It's how I tell my stories.

I just don't want someone reading my little number in a query letter and thinking, "I bet she's leaving stuff out."

but yeah I'm not trying to cheat here.

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
Here's what Miss Snark said about it. It sums things up pretty well.

Gracias.

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

KTC said:
So are mine. My first draft for the one I just submitted was only about 27K. Not bad for 40 hours, though. (-;

Pssh. I was like 50 hours.

Man.

maestrowork · Nov 5, 2007

Word says 26,000. Round it up to 30,000 and call it that. Saying it's 40,000 is just trying to fool everyone, including yourself. Better spend time beefing it up to REAL 40,000 words.

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

ohh, I will.

*evil laugh.*

Shady Lane · Nov 5, 2007

KTC said:
Mine's 60K. If I'm gonna lie, I'm gonna lie big.

Mine's a trilogy now.

wayndom · Nov 7, 2007

Shady Lane said:
Not exaggerating for emphasis.

I honestly am not trying to be, uh, shady, here....I've heard people say the 250 X #pages is the preferred method. I DID NOT DREAM THIS.

You are quite right, and those who've said go with the word-processor count are wrong.

250 x pages is called a "publisher's word count," and is not and never was intended to be accurate. Its purpose is to let the publisher know how many pages the published book will be, not how many words it contains, so white space counts as "words," because it takes up space on the page.

And it's not dishonest, because you won't get paid by the word.

Word Count Ethics

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Cynical Idealist

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