Is this a problem? MY second draft just keeps growing and growing.

underthecity · Oct 15, 2007

In Stephen King's On Writing, he states that the second draft is first draft minus ten percent.

I finished my first draft last October, clocking in at 400 pages and 100,000 words. I figured I'd be doing a lot of cutting.

But the problem was that there were MANY scenes that were very underwritten, many were sketchy, and told more than they showed just so I could get the scene down and blocked out so I could move on.

Now, as I rewrite, I'm fleshing out all these scenes, adding description, inner monologue, more dialogue, and just generally improving everything one chapter at a time.

It's taking forever, but after a year of rewriting (and working full time, often seven days a week) I'm about 60% through. My current word count is 110K and the page count is 428 and it just keeps growing.

Is this a problem? Is something to worry about?

allen

jennifer75 · Oct 15, 2007

If you're uncomfortable with the length, make it a series.

jannawrites · Oct 15, 2007

King obviously knows what he's talking about, but don't feel you have to fit his mold. Tell your story to do just that: tell your story. The length will work itself out.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 15, 2007

The Stephen King minus 10% is a guideline for people who write like he does, with a lot of extraneous material that can easily be cut.

Then there are people like me who end up adding 20% to the draft because my first drafts are a barebones affair that needs fleshing out.

Which is correct is up to you to decide.

Sorry. That wasn't much help, was it?

maestrowork · Oct 15, 2007

While length is not necessarily a problem (unless you have something like 295,000 words) you find your book growing and growing, you may want to examine a few things:

- Is your plot too complicated? Is it bloated? Can it be streamlined?

- Do you have unnecessarily scenes that can be cut without losing your plot or character development?

- Do you have too many subplots? Too many characters? Maybe it's time to trim them

- Do you write precisely or do you have a lot of verbiage, redundancy, fluff words, etc. -- that's what editing is for

If after that you still think the book needs to be 150,000 words, so be it.

mscelina · Oct 15, 2007

it depends. Does what you're fleshing out forward the plot? Or,does it complicate it unecessarily? Eventually, you have to determine if what you're adding is actually improving your story. I write in streaks, personally. Usually, I find that I have to cut lots of adverbs, commas, dialogue tags--but still add in places to increase character development or to adequately bridge between two scenes.

WittyandorIronic · Oct 15, 2007

It also sounds like you didn't actually finish your first draft...as maestro mentioned in another post, some peoples first drafts are similar to REALLY detailed outlines. So another way to look at it is that you are finishing the first draft, and can cut and edit on your 2nd(2nd) draft.

sneakers145 · Oct 15, 2007

I would keep going as you are, fleshing out what needs to be added to, trimming what can be cut. Then read through and find any scenes that really don't advance the plot, may rehash what you've already established, etc. Then cut those. Then, go through for the repetitive words (that, was, etc) and cut those. See where you stand.

If your story is tight and well done, submit. If it still has issues, revise. Some stories can't be neatly resolved in 80K words. Some should wrap up at 60K. Others need to be a series, and depending on genre need to be 100K+.

Wraith · Oct 15, 2007

Well, I always hear there are two kinds of writers - those who cut in rewrites (too wordy) and those who need to add, because they don't get into much detail the first time around.

Now, if you feel your story is too long, that's a whole different thing, but you sound like it's just the sheer wordcount that worries you. In that case, you should keep rewriting and leave such worries for later. To tell you the truth, I tried really, really hard to read, enjoy and learn from On Writing but everytime I tried, it only managed to discourage me, because what it suggests is just not my type of writing. I know it's an appreciated book, just doesn't work for me - and I've managed to get over it by now

.

Sooo, I agree with everyone else. If your storyline makes sense and can be followed, if your characters are alive and if nothing you add is redundant, I don't think you need to worry. Besides, after you finish the rewrite, you can take a look at your book as a whole and decide whether it needs any major changes (read "killings") which you probably wouldn't notice now when you're going step-by-step. But if the thing is going well, and you like it, nothing in the world should stop you.

underthecity · Oct 15, 2007

Thanks for the comments. I'm just afraid that what I'm going to wind up with is a 500+ page behemoth that I'm going to have to severely trim down so agents won't be scared away by its length.

For an example of the writing itself, I have the first chapter posted in the Horror SYW forum, after numerous reworkings and revisions. If you care to check it out, you can see whether you think it's too wordy or not. I don't know. I like to think my work is more "bare bones" than excessive and possibly bloated, like King's The Shining. (While The Shining is my favorite King novel, I do find it bloated.)

allen

amber_grosjean · Oct 15, 2007

Not all writers work in the same way. When King said second draft is 10% less, he wasn't referring to all writers. If we all wrote the same way, there wouldn't be any need to read those books on writing because we would know it all and there wouldn't be any difference in other books.

You know what your story needs. If it needs more and not less, keep adding where it's lacking for the story to be properly told. If there are areas that need to be taken out because they pull the story down, take them out. If your story is growing, maybe it was intended to be a longer story. Keep going until you feel it is just right. There is no magical number of words at this point. You're still in the writing process. Look at Harry Potter. That book is long but people have enjoyed it for years now.

If a publisher feels it is too long, then you can worry about it. Until then, just focus on telling the story to the best of your ability. If you don't want to rely on the publisher, there are those betas. Have people read it and see if they feel its too long, or too short once you believe you are finished writing and editing. Good luck!

Amber

JoNightshade · Oct 15, 2007

If I were you, at this point I would be looking at streamlining my plot before going to a lot of extra effort to flesh out scenes you might cut later anyway. If you didn't start with an outline, you might want to try writing up an outline now. Then look at that and see what can be combined, stripped away, and otherwise streamlined. Once you've got a better idea of what you want the outcome to be, then you can go back and flesh out the scenes that are really important.

Danger Jane · Oct 15, 2007

King said that was HIS issue, cutting 10%, not everyone's. I always need more detail on my next drafts.

Finish this draft. Then go through and cut big stuff--whole scenes, if they are redundant.

Then go through again and cut whole sentences and phrases and words.

It may be 10%, or 5, or 30. But it'll be something.

ORION · Oct 15, 2007

Like they said.
I'm the opposite of King - My drafts get progressively longer and then start to shrink.
Remember ol' Stevie boy could print out the phone book in Latin and get it published.
You could have more than one book OR you could have wordy sentences OR you could have unnecessary scenes OR your book could be just fine- we don't know we haven't read it- When you're finished with the next draft send it around to a few beta readers - they'll tell you soon enough- for now just write the book that's in your heart-

JamieFord · Oct 15, 2007

I read the chapter you posted, and I do think you can trim/edit quite a bit. It feels a bit overdescribed--almost like a transcript of what's happening, rather than boiling it down to the key elements that propel the story forward. The reader can, and should be allowed to connect the dots. The writing is fine, but I think you can simplify it, even cut the banter a bit, and actually make it stronger.

David I · Oct 16, 2007

I usually find that whole scenes are missing from my first draft--usually late in the book, where I really ought to juice it for more. So I trim some stuff in the second draft, but the next effect after I've added scenes is to make the book longer.

Steverino typically has first drafts that come in around 180,000 words. He can afford to cut, oh yes indeed.

megan_d · Oct 16, 2007

Is growing with crap or with gold?

GerriB · Oct 16, 2007

Let it grow, let it grow, let it grow. Seriously. Get everything in there. Next draft, prune. If the entire story isn't there, then there's not much point in worrying about word count. Once the entire thing is settled, then you can look for the vicegrips and screws.

Good luck!

Eyan Carrington · Oct 16, 2007

Just enjoy the process. You're only on your second run-through, and if you're doing your job, there should be plenty more after that!

My second drafts tend to be the first draft less 20% (hereby known as a double-Kinger), and maybe that's because I once edited news stories for a living. I can cut too much sometimes - not so much bare bones as... um... what's more bare than bare bones?!

Prawn · Oct 16, 2007

I underwrite first drafts. I write about 90K first drafts. Then I edit out 5K of crap and add back in 5K of stuff to make the plot smoother, so I end up back around 90K again.

GeorgieB · Oct 16, 2007

GerriB said:
Let it grow, let it grow, let it grow. Seriously. Get everything in there. Next draft, prune. If the entire story isn't there, then there's not much point in worrying about word count. Once the entire thing is settled, then you can look for the vicegrips and screws.

What GerriB said.

I write with my internal/infernal editor turned off. It's been my experience (YMMV) that most scenes need more meat and that my characters need more personality. One first draft went from 65K to over 80K and it's not fully edited yet.

Let it grow until you're satisfied. If you're not, what are the odds that your readers will be?

chartreuse · Oct 16, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
The Stephen King minus 10% is a guideline for people who write like he does, with a lot of extraneous material that can easily be cut.

Then there are people like me who end up adding 20% to the draft because my first drafts are a barebones affair that needs fleshing out.

I'm in that category too. When I'm working on a first draft I don't pay much attention to anything but the dialogue and getting the basic plot to make sense.. Bringing the settings to life, putting in descriptions of characters, their backgrounds, etc., - that all waits for the second draft.

I think it's because plot and dialogue are what I like best and what comes easiest - all the descriptive stuff is much harder for me.

batgirl · Oct 16, 2007

Part of this depends where you decide you've finished a 'draft'. I called my 'first draft' done at a point when I needed to break and do more research (the setting of the last 3d of the story was very different from the first 2/3ds). It was then about 80k, already over my projected wordcount.
Filling in what I consider to be necessary scenes, I'm not finished 2d draft and just edged over 110k. So I feel for you. But I did learn while writing short stories that obsessing over wordcount leads to skimpy writing on essential scenes, because instead of making every word count, I'm counting every word. Not the same thing.
I'd say fill it in now. Flense it in 3d draft. This is speaking only from my experience and from no font of wisdom.
-Barbara

Robyn · Oct 17, 2007

Honestly I would say it depends. For instance... depending on the length and what you might feel is missing adding to it isn't always bad. I know i'm doing that with one of mine as we speak.... but it is also turning out to be the first of a possible series now with what i'm adding.

underthecity · Oct 17, 2007

I greatly appreciate the comments. Now I know I really don't have much to worry about until I get to draft #3. And I do know it needs developmental editing, which doesn't happen right away.

And also, for those who checked out the sample posted in SYW, it seems that chapter one still needs a lot of work, as I did strongly suspect.

Jamie Ford said:

JamieFord said:
It feels a bit overdescribed--almost like a transcript of what's happening, rather than boiling it down to the key elements that propel the story forward. The reader can, and should be allowed to connect the dots. The writing is fine, but I think you can simplify it, even cut the banter a bit, and actually make it stronger.

which is something I've suspected about the chapter, even after my many, many rewrites, but I'm just too damn close to it to notice it for its flaws. The rest of the chapters don't necessarily read this way, since the first chapter is describing the process of the first big test of the machine. So, if it reads like a transcript, I have to get back to work on it.

Right now, though, real life is getting in the way of my writing. I'm spending every evening this week building a shed, and this weekend I'm getting a new car to work on, a 1967 Mercury Park Lane convertible. It's 95% restored, but I will have to do some work to it, which cuts into my writing time.

Sigh. If only I didn't have to sleep. I might get something done.

allen

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