Foreign Languages

Azraelsbane · Sep 12, 2007

Wait, it's not the traditional "Are foreign languages okay?" question. Promise.

Most of my MCs are ancient, and their native language is different from one of the other MCs (whose native language is English). It's a pretty passive difference in the book. They speak English when she's around, and their native language when she's not. The reader knows they have a different language, but it's never really mentioned that they fluctuate back and forth.

I'm working on a scene where the English speaking MC walks in on some of the others talking. One of them isn't a friendly, and thus doesn't show the common courtesy of swapping from his native language for her. Would it be jarring if the language difference showed up that way? As in... the dialogue has been going on awhile before she shows up, and then she gets annoyed because she doesn't understand them.

I don't know if the reader would stop dead and go "Oh, wow. They were speaking another language all that time?" Or just go with it. I could take it out all together and just act like they were speaking English from the get go, but logically that doesn't make sense (to me, though it would likely be one of those flaws caught only by nitpicking reviewers).

Anyway, I thought about italics, but I think it's pointless to do it that way when every bit of the conversation is understandable.

What do you guys think?

JLCwrites · Sep 12, 2007

Could you start out the conversation with one character mentioning to the other that they should speak in "Pig Latin" so they are not overheard?

Azraelsbane · Sep 12, 2007

Turkey Lurkey said:
Could you start out the conversation with one character mentioning to the other that they should speak in "Pig Latin" so they are not overheard?

I guess I could...but it'd sort of knock up the logic flow that had them speaking a different language to begin with. If I did that, I might want to just leave the language thing out all together. *sigh* As it is, none of them would really think to say something like that, or it wouldn't make sense if they did, because all three of them would naturally fall to the same language.

JLCwrites · Sep 12, 2007

So, throughout the entire story, these two characters are speaking in an ancient language?
If so, then the reader should be able to pick up on it during this scene. Try writing it through, then let your beta readers decide if it is confusing. Or re-approach the scene in a few weeks to see if it works.
I'd hate for you to give up on your original plan.

Azraelsbane · Sep 12, 2007

Turkey Lurkey said:
So, throughout the entire story, these two characters are speaking in an ancient language?
If so, then the reader should be able to pick up on it during this scene. Try writing it through, then let your beta readers decide if it is confusing. Or re-approach the scene in a few weeks to see if it works.
I'd hate for you to give up on your original plan.

Well, I'm polishing the last scene for betas.

So I don't want to leave it for a few weeks. I guess I'll see how they react. Thing is, it's obvious from the beginning that the language difference is there (between characters), but it's up to the reader to realize that logically...why would these people speak the mortal tongue when talking amongst themselves? Really it just deals with a logic flaw I'm trying to keep from building into my world, because sooner or later if it gets published someone will go "Well that makes no frickin' sense. I doubt these immortals would always be speaking English amongst themselves."

It's trivial, I know... *sigh* Maybe I'll really just take it out all together.

JohnDavidPaxton · Sep 12, 2007

I don't think it's a problem if you keep it to a minimum. As a reader I certainly don't mind it when someone breaks into Russian or so for a paragraph or a chapter. As you said it's only a scene or a character, no.

Would this make me realize that all of characters from x were speaking language of x all the time? No. Or, at least, I doubt it. I tend not to go too far from what I'm given in a story, though. I like to think that everything written is important and everything left out isn't (except for twists, but I digress, as I think all crucial information for a twist should be put into story before it's revealed).

As them speaking another language doesn't seem important for a fundamental difference, I honestly don't think I'd get there unless someone hit me over the head with it story.

Are you really so concerned with what a reader is going to think about bi-lingual characters? No, I don't think anyone is going to see it is a logical flaw on your part that ancient characters are speaking a modern tongue when interacting with modern characters. The only thing this language switch shows the reader directly is that this example character, the one who won't speak english, is less willing to embrace the culture, more antagonistic or is just a jerk. I think it's a great way to show these things.

I do not mean this disrespectfully, but if your readers are getting to the point that they scrounge over your work and start asking questions about the history and cultures of your world, you're lucky.

JLCwrites · Sep 12, 2007

no no no!
Leave it in.... let your beta's tell you if it works. Trust your original plan! You are going through the final editing gitters!

Azraelsbane · Sep 12, 2007

I think I found a way to fix it and keep the logic. You guys got me thinkin.'

The main reason it even comes up in my mind, is the English speaking MC is flipping through MC2's journal while he's having a conversation with the minor antags, and after they leave she brings it up that she can't understand it. MC2 explains that it's in his native language (which really up to this point English MC never knew much about, seeing as the two guys she lives with always speak English with her...the bad guys just don't because they view it as sinking to her level). I thought the journal issue might get readers thinking "Well why weren't they speaking in their native language before she came in?"

But anyway, I think I got a handle on it. Thanks all!

Ravenlocks · Sep 12, 2007

Damn, and I was gonna chime in, too. But glad you got a handle on it. Not sure my two cents were really going to be very helpful.

Shane Fitzsimmons · Sep 12, 2007

Personally, I'd just mention it whenever it's relevant. Whenever they switch languages, say so. If you ever want to tell the story from the perspective of a character who doesn't speak the language, then you could either go the simple route and write: He walked in on them speaking a language he didn't understand.

Or, a more interesting way could be to, assuming it's a real language, to write a line of it out in the actual language, in italics. That way, neither the reader nor the character will know what was said, and they'll share the confusion, which is always good.

Though I suppose if they're speaking a relatively common foreign language, like Spanish, there's a decent chance the reader would understand. So that could be a problem.

Azraelsbane · Sep 12, 2007

Ravenlocks said:
Damn, and I was gonna chime in, too. But glad you got a handle on it. Not sure my two cents were really going to be very helpful.

I'm not 100% sure my idea will work. All opinions are helpful.

mscelina · Sep 12, 2007

I think that your idea on it will probably work, Azrael--personally I tend to use italics for that in my work. mostly because the characters don't break into the ancient language unless they WANT to say something the others don't understand.

*scratches head*

I hoop you understood that. I'm not sure I did.

Ravenlocks · Sep 12, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
I'm not 100% sure my idea will work. All opinions are helpful.

My thoughts are that if you're writing from the MC's POV and she doesn't understand, the readers shouldn't understand either. So in that case either you'd have to include the foreign language dialogue by the characters or filter the language through a character who will interpret for the MC. If she walks into the room where they're already speaking the foreign language, but we've understood it up until then, maybe you could start a new chapter with her walking in? So in the previous chapter we understood them, then she walks in and she can't understand, so suddenly we can't either.

However, if the scene is written from the POV of somebody else, somebody who does understand, then I don't see a problem. Like you said, your MC can just mention later that she didn't understand, the other character can explain what language was being spoken, and sounds like you'd be fine.

victoria.goddard · Sep 12, 2007

I think that if the story is from either the PoV of either the foreign MC or omniscient, then it doesn't matter if he's speaking another language and the English MC doesn't understand it, because the PoV narrator knows it. But what concerns me is what language the journal is written in--you say it's the foreign MC's journal, but English MC is flipping through it. Is she reading it, or just looking at it? Because if it's a journal, perhaps foreign MC thinks to himself that he's not worried about her looking at it because it's in his own language, and that would indicate she wouldn't know the language he was speaking, either.

Azraelsbane · Sep 12, 2007

It's from the foreign language speaking MC's pov. And the English speaking one kinda snatches the journal from him. He's worried at first, but then realizes his worries are unfounded, because she looks confused, and obviously doesn't understand what she's looking at. I'm almost done with the scene, and definitely got it ironed out by now.

Thanks so much for the help guys and gals!

EriRae · Sep 12, 2007

Give it to the betas and let them decide what's jarring and what's not...you know...betas?...um...me?...I WANT TO READ IT STOP ASKING QUESTIONS AND GET IT DONE YOU SILLY PYROTECHNIC ANGEL!!!

Azraelsbane · Sep 12, 2007

Erinmiller77 said:
Give it to the betas and let them decide what's jarring and what's not...you know...betas?...um...me?...I WANT TO READ IT STOP ASKING QUESTIONS AND GET IT DONE YOU SILLY PYROTECHNIC ANGEL!!!

*cringes in a corner* You are about the 10th person to yell at me today. I AM HURRYING. Would you like to read crap, or something good? Calm yourself, it's coming.

EriRae · Sep 12, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
*cringes in a corner* You are about the 10th person to yell at me today. I AM HURRYING. Would you like to read crap, or something good? Calm yourself, it's coming.

*slinks back to OTHER beta stuff she is doing* [SUB]Okay....[/SUB]

Koobie · Sep 13, 2007

JohnDavidPaxton said:
As a reader I certainly don't mind it when someone breaks into Russian or so for a paragraph or a chapter.

Neither do I! But hey, Russian's my native language. :tongue

French, on the other hand...

jurched · Sep 13, 2007

Last time I saw the unintelligible foreign language vs. English was in the ELFQUEST graphic novels.

Wendy Pini placed Elf talk in brackets <<Elf talk>> when the elves were in the human areas; the confused humans scratched their heads with one hand and grasping spears with the other.

In cases where humans were among the elves, their language was in brackets. It wasn't confusing because those scenes were usually kept apart by other action.

I can't see why this technique wouldn't work for a regular novel.

J

DamaNegra · Sep 13, 2007

How about makinig the 'ancient language' guys speak in Shakespearean english when they're talking their ancient language? That way, the slight difference would be noticeable.

dclary · Sep 13, 2007

Azraelsbane said:
*cringes in a corner* You are about the 10th person to yell at me today. I AM HURRYING. Would you like to read crap, or something good? Calm yourself, it's coming.

So... is it done?

Azraelsbane · Sep 13, 2007

dclary said:
So... is it done?

Yes. Beta readers will be waking up tomorrow with no reason to poke me. I don't know what they'll do with all the extra time... Oh yeah, read.

wayndom · Sep 13, 2007

I would do it by first showing the ancients talking to each other in english, without the MC present. Then do a POV shift to the MC entering the room, and overhearing the ancients speaking what sounds like gibberish to him. You could have one of the ancients react in some distinctive way to something said, and show the reaction in both POV's, to show the reader there's overlap in the two scenes.

Just how I'd do it... your mileage may vary...

[written before reading the whole thread]

Prawn · Sep 14, 2007

I use this all the time in my writing. People speak different languages. I make lanuage choice part of the inner dialogue. For example, I might say things like these:

He switched to Arabic, knowing she would understand him better that way.

Seeing his wife enter the room, he switched back to English.

Foreign Languages

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