Word Count for First Novels

childeroland · Sep 11, 2007

I've been told by an agent and a few editors that publishers prefer first novels to have a word count of below 100,000, preferably 80-90,000. Anyone else have experience of this, or of selling first time novels over 90,000?

aruna · Sep 11, 2007

My first novel had a word count of around 150,000. It sold at auction in1998.
Toothpaste's first novel - YA - I don't know the word count but at almost 400 pages it's definitely over 100,000.

maestrowork · Sep 11, 2007

Anything from 60K to 150K... I think is within the norm.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 11, 2007

Length

Find publisher's length guidelines and then follow them. Not doing so makes selling a novel a heck of a lot harder than it should be, and often causes even more problems down the road, if you do sell the novel.

Do not go by exceptions. Those who manage not to follow length guidelines and still sell are in the tiny, tiny, tiny minority. Find the guidelines, read the guidelines, follow the guidelines, preferably before you even start writing the novel.

childeroland · Oct 5, 2007

That's what I thought but is there a secret (forgive the conspiratorial tone) preference --among editors dealing with first novels--for a certain word length in spite of their guidelines?

Susan Breen · Oct 5, 2007

I always thought that you were supposed to aim for 70,000 to 80,000 words, though of course there are exceptions.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 5, 2007

Length

childeroland said:
That's what I thought but is there a secret (forgive the conspiratorial tone) preference --among editors dealing with first novels--for a certain word length in spite of their guidelines?

No. Those guidelines are in place specifically for first novels. Once you've sold a novel or two, you can usually write something considerably longer than these guidelines state.

scarletpeaches · Oct 5, 2007

aruna said:
...Toothpaste's first novel - YA - I don't know the word count but at almost 400 pages it's definitely over 100,000.

I would have said it was far lower than 100k. Large type and pictures take up a lot of space, and I think it's MG rather than YA. It was shelved in the 8-12 section in my local Waterstone's.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 5, 2007

Toothpaste

It looks under 100K to me, but it doesn't matter. You have to go by the rule, not the exceptions to the rule.

Toothpaste · Oct 7, 2007

It's 80 000 (and there are no pictures in it! - okay the UK one has tiny sketches at the start of each chapter, but they don't really take up room). I think aruna, the German copy is longer than the English language one though.

Anyway, 80 000 is actually still way over the norm for the MG range. But I still cut it down a fair bit from what it was originally (my agent wouldn't sign me until I'd cut 10 000). The crazy thing was after I had cut it down, I hadn't actually cut any scenes or anything. So what remained was the exact same book, but suddenly it read so much tighter and better. It read . . .like a real book. It was cool.

I'm with James. More often than not, there is editing that can be done. And I just don't know why people are afraid of editing, it makes one's book so much better!

scarletpeaches · Oct 7, 2007

Who cares how long it is as long as people buy it, right?

valen_sinclair · Oct 9, 2007

what happens if you have a triology as your first piece???

Carrie R. · Oct 9, 2007

I do know agents who will auto-ding a novel that's not within the typical word length for the novel (for example, will ding a 140k romance from a first time writer). I'm with JAR -- there are exceptions, but as a first time writer you want to reduce any hurdles between you and publication. Having a novel within general word count for your genre can only help. And it varies from genre to genre (fantasies and sf tend to be longer than romance, for example).

Jamesaritchie · Oct 9, 2007

Toothpaste said:
It's 80 000

Anyway, 80 000 is actually still way over the norm for the MG range. But I still cut it down a fair bit from what it was originally (my agent wouldn't sign me until I'd cut 10 000). The crazy thing was after I had cut it down, I hadn't actually cut any scenes or anything. So what remained was the exact same book, but suddenly it read so much tighter and better. It read . . .like a real book. It was cool.

I'm with James. More often than not, there is editing that can be done. And I just don't know why people are afraid of editing, it makes one's book so much better!

I think Rowling screwed up word length guidelines for both MG and YA. There have been some fierce arguments inside publishing about acceptable length for these categories.

Toothpaste · Oct 9, 2007

Yes I do think she opened the door to longer lengths. I think as long as kids are willing to read it, it shouldn't be a problem. None of the kids I've met seem daunted by the size of my book. Heck compared to the last couple HP's, it's practically tiny.

KTC · Oct 9, 2007

i'm at about 48K and I only have about 3 weeks left to submit to the publisher. But they will have been informed it will probably be a novella...so I can only hope they are not disappointed by the word count.

BruceJ · Oct 11, 2007

valen_sinclair said:
what happens if you have a triology as your first piece???

Good question here. Does the entire series have to be finished before submitting the MS for the first volume, or will publishers accept the project on a volume-by-volume basis? Or does this vary by publisher, too?

Jamesaritchie · Oct 11, 2007

Trilogy

BruceJ said:
Good question here. Does the entire series have to be finished before submitting the MS for the first volume, or will publishers accept the project on a volume-by-volume basis? Or does this vary by publisher, too?

In this case, you need some luck, and a terrific first novel. It is not unheard of for new writers to sell a trilogy, but it is incredibly difficult. The problem with a trilogy is that if the first book flops, why would the publisher want the second and third? It only means they would lose even more money. So most publishers want trilogies from writers who have already proven their ability to please the reading public.

It's far better, and far easier, for a new writer to write a standalone first novel. If this is successful, it can be turned into a series, the way Harry Potter was.

BruceJ · Oct 11, 2007

Oops...

Thanks, James. Unfortunately, I've already embarked on that route, with the first volume (a novella ~40K words) being an intro/prelude to the series. The second work is at ~86K right now and probably won't get much bigger. The first work was published by a subsidy publisher (I know, I know...), but I'm not sure how I'll approach the remainder of the series. I'm obligated by contract to give them first dibs on the second work, but I'm not obligated to take their follow-on contract, if one comes. We'll see. Any suggestions you may have on a way ahead would be greatly appreciated.

Khazarkhum · Oct 27, 2007

Would you call Steinbeck's "Of Mice & Men" a novel?

It's well under 40,000 words.

Take the time to tell your story, and let the story dictate the length. If needs be, you can compress it later.

Voyager · Oct 27, 2007

I was kind of freaking out about the length of my novel. It's at around 73,000. Good to know I'm right where I need to be.

vfury · Oct 27, 2007

Toothpaste said:
And I just don't know why people are afraid of editing, it makes one's book so much better!

I love editing! Possibly because it involves lots of note making, list making and ripping apart. There's also the satisfaction from knowing the end result is almost always better than the original.

People have commented that my enthusiasm can be a bit alarming at times, though...

ORION · Oct 27, 2007

When I was querying LOTTERY it was about 72,000- after I finished "tweaking" with my agent it was 89,000 which was the length that it sold to Putnam- after editing there it is now 87,000 as a published hardback-
There are certain genre which are specific on length - there are certain imprints who have specific guide lines. When you are querying for representation there are generalities - but each situation is unique - depending on whether you are a debut author - switching genres, an established entity - etc.
The generalization is as others have said - a new author should probably keep their word count under 100 K - to increase their chances for representation -
This question is asked over and over - the other part is the premise and the writing-
The three go hand in hand- There are no hard and fast rules -
I know if I was an agent and I got a query for a 500,000 word novel no matter how brilliant the query letter was - I'd have to really think twice about requesting it!

popmuze · Oct 27, 2007

My agent just told me to pare my 100,000 word first adult novel down to at least 90, preferably 80 or 70. I got it down to 92 and I'm hoping for the best.
But I'm wondering what 90k would amount to in a typical hardcover layout. In a random inspection of the novels in front of me I find around 400 words a page. So even 92k would be less than 250 pages, which doesn't seem that much of a burden to put on the reader.

lkp · Oct 27, 2007

Remember also that genre has a big impact on word count. I was told by my agent that 120,000was not too long for historical fiction, and I believe the same is true for fantasy. There's no one size fits all answer, even for debut novelists.

Word Count for First Novels

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