overwhelmed and lacking solutions

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

First off, hello, I'm new to these boards and seeking some assistance, while possibly sharing some ideas and philosophies of my own in my writing. To start off, I'm a high school senior who's currently sitting on a 400 page first draft of a science fiction novel of mine, and I've got 60 pages left of editing until my second draft is complete. I've based my writing formula heavily off of Stephen King's memoir to the craft. I'm unsure if this is something that is frowned upon or not, but his advice on the topic has served me well. As a writer, I want to construct a world and story that if I saw this book on the shelf, I'd flip out and purchase it instantly. I'm a huge fan of epic fantasy and science fiction, regardless of its form of media. Be it movies, novels, manga/graphic novels, video games, whatever, I don't discriminate by origin because in the end its the story I'm interested in. From my own personal proofreading, I believe I've captured this well. I'm preparing for some close friends who share similar fiction interests to me to take a look at my novel, give their opinions and help me catch some minor editing issues (like form when you mean from, I hate that one >.<), critique it once more and its ready for the press...at least I hope. It would be nice if I could get it finished in time for my application to Virginia Tech's (I'm actually interested in the field of computer science, but I enjoy writing fiction) early admission, but that's probably a pipe dream. xD

Personally, while I like my story a lot, I realize the market is probably over saturated with fantasy and science fiction, and considering my position as a simple high school student bogged down with AP classes, I have no idea where to start. From what I've researched my first move should be finding an agent, and that there are several directories aimed at us writers that can help me with this. Other than this, I'm quite lost on how this whole publishing thing usually works.

Will agents or publishers start off with low hopes of my submissions because I've yet to graduate from high school? What about the genre? Is the fact my current work (a trilogy, fully planned out) science fiction further hinder my efforts at finding a publisher? Is there anything else important I should know?

And least importantly, will this effort eventually pay off with some pocket change?

While I had the novel planned out for quite a while now, I seriously set to work on it this summer with three thoughts in mind. A) It was fun, and I always wanted to share this tale of mine with an audience. B) I figured now would be a better time than ever to get it constructed. Something tells me 'Published Fiction Author' would look nice on a college resume. C) I wanted to experiment with my ability to construct a world, characters and orchestrate their story in an entertaining manner. It wasn't until I finished my first draft the reality hit me that publishing meant business. I'm just slightly curious on this field.

Thanks for the advice in advance, and I'm looking forward to sharing and learning with this community!

Shady Lane · Sep 10, 2007

My best friend calls himself A-rod, so your username makes me giggle.

Welcome to AW. I'm a high school junior, and congratulations--so far, you're doing a great job of disproving the theory that teenagers are incompetent writers and--possibly worse--incompetent businessmen.

I personally love On Writing, and think it's a great source, but make sure you're not trying to craft a Stephen King clone, okay? This is purely hypothetical advice, because you really do sound like you know what you're doing.

Okay. So. Get that 2nd draft finished, and get ye off to some beta readers. Friends are great, because you've got to be able to capture the reader, and see if you can get a writer beta as well. There's a board here just for finding one.

Once they've critted, do another edit, and try to cut. You don't mention what font you're using or what your wordcount is, but 400 might be kind of chunky. Once you've got the story as nice and tight as you can get it, you're ready to query agents. Find some that represent sci-fi, craft a good letter (we can help you with that here) and get to submitting. And while you're waiting for the responses to pour in, start writing the next one.

Some agents like to work with young writers, some don't. I include my age (sixteen) in about half my queries, depending on how I'm feeling that day/about the agent. My responses to both have been similar--I got full and partial requests from several agents before I started putting in my age, and I received a partial request on Friday from an agent who knew my name exactly--which I hope will mean she thinks it's cute that I covered her submission package in 34 cent stamps.

I'm definitely not an expert on trilogies, so I'll leave that one to someone else. Hope I've helped, and good luck to ya. Let me know if you have any questions.

And if you write YA, definitely check out the YA boards. Or check it out anyway because you're in high school and that's like a free ticket. That's where the cool kids hang out.

Esopha · Sep 10, 2007

Jay-rod said:
To start off, I'm a high school senior who's currently sitting on a 400 page first draft of a science fiction novel of mine, and I've got 60 pages left of editing until my second draft is complete.

Hi! I'm a high school junior, about 30k into the second revision and 25k into the first draft of two separate works. Welcome to AW!

From my own personal proofreading, I believe I've captured this well. I'm preparing for some close friends who share similar fiction interests to me to take a look at my novel, give their opinions and help me catch some minor editing issues (like form when you mean from, I hate that one >.<), critique it once more and its ready for the press...at least I hope.

I think you mean ready to query. Presses =/= Publishers... but more on this later.

From what I've researched my first move should be finding an agent, and that there are several directories aimed at us writers that can help me with this. Other than this, I'm quite lost on how this whole publishing thing usually works.

I have some reading for you!

http://www.misssnark.com/
http://www.pubrants.blogspot.com
http://nathanbransford.blogspot.com/
http://accrispin.blogspot.com/

Also, check out the Bewares and Background Check area of this forum. There's a whole thread dedicated to explaining how real publishing works.

Will agents or publishers start off with low hopes of my submissions because I've yet to graduate from high school? What about the genre? Is the fact my current work (a trilogy, fully planned out) science fiction further hinder my efforts at finding a publisher? Is there anything else important I should know?

The writing is everything. However, make sure that each book stands alone. Series with big, gaping holes at the end make people run away to find a dark corner to cry in.

And least importantly, will this effort eventually pay off with some pocket change?

Maybe. Probably not. Shady's published. It's her third (?) book, though. First books are usually poop. If you don't think your book is poop, then you'll need to work on the second edit, get the WIP off to beta readers (like Shady said) and write and read. A lot.

If you want, take a look at our Share Your Work forum to get some feedback from the wonderful people here. (They won't play nice because of your age, either.)

Definitely come hang out with us YA people. Everybody's welcome, even if you don't write YA.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 10, 2007

Book

The only way an agent or editor will know how old you have, or what degrees you have or have not, is if you tell them. For all they know, you're forty years old and have more degrees than a thermometer.

So don't tell them otherwise.

Azraelsbane · Sep 10, 2007

As one of the SF&F critters that will definitely not play nice with you because of your age, I'd also like to suggest you post a bit in SYW. Especially if it's your first novel.

It might be spectacular, but getting some feedback will let you know how great it really is. It will also help you tighten things before sending it off.

SYW crits are the best tools, ever. You just have to realize you can't take everything to heart, and you can't do everything suggested.

Good luck! And grats on the book. It's a great feeling to finish a novel!

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

Shady Lane said:
TLSIT (Too long so I truncated )

Oooooh, I'm glad to see another youngin' trolling around these forums. Thanks for the initial advice - far as Stephen King clone goes, I can't say myself if it would be perceived as one. I'd give my plot synopsis, but I'm exceptionally lazy, and haven't made one yet! I fancy my plot as a salute to contemporary science fiction and fantasy in all the above mediums I listed. For example, my story includes vampires, and I portray them similarly to Hirano does in Hellsing, with lots of flowing black auras and fun stuff. My own little universe is unique in its own, but I also fancy the idea of someone noticing where X fictional creature of mine was influenced by, not out of originality or an attempt at cloning something, but as a tribute to what I myself was influenced by.

Far as my font, 12 point book antiqua with 1.5 margins all the way around. Before I started I was unsure how to set these things, and with a little research found an article on it which suggested the above. It might not be what all publishers want, but I can change that as needed with minimal effort. Trust me, it was chunky at the 480's, and I cut like 130 of that out, but I also found the need to revise some parts to the point of adding new chapters.

Overall I think its a solid read as far as the first installment of my series goes. First installments are rarely the most memorable or best done, and I treat mine as an introduction to the world my characters live in as their antagonist slowly reveals itself over the course of the story. I'm 100% confident the second installment will be where it shines, followed with an equally exciting conclusion. I try to keep the action fast coming.

I'll stick my head in the YA later, but I've got some AP Gov + Psych to study, not to mention go over another twenty pages for today's revisions. Oh, the joys of writing in the summer with no time restraints. I miss it xO

Shady Lane · Sep 10, 2007

Maybe. Probably not. Shady's published. It's her third (?) book, though. First books are usually poop. If you don't think your book is poop, then you'll need to work on the second edit, get the WIP off to beta readers (like Shady said) and write and read. A lot.

Confirmed.

ETA: Standard format is Courier new, 12 point, 1'' all around. You'll probably go insane less rapidly if you think of it in terms of word count--so hit that button and find out what we're working with.

Esopha · Sep 10, 2007

Shady Lane said:
Confirmed.

ETA: Standard format is Courier new, 12 point, 1'' all around. You'll probably go insane less rapidly if you think of it in terms of word count--so hit that button and find out what we're working with.

Excellent. I was right.

Ditto on the word count.

And stop talking about homework. It makes us procrastinators feel bad.

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

Wow, I'm surprised with the overwhelming amount of feedback for a thirty minute absence. This place moves faster than /b/ on Caturday.

Thanks for the pointers, and far as wanting editors to go light on me because of my age, that isn't what I meant. To be honest, I don't view my work as that spectacular (however I do joke about it being the greatest literary achievement of the 21st century

), but its a fun, non-complicated read that I don't think will leave the reader disappointed. My goal with the first novel is to leave them feeling like "Wow, that's a big twist and explains a lot. I want to know what happens next!"

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

Shady Lane said:
Confirmed.

ETA: Standard format is Courier new, 12 point, 1'' all around. You'll probably go insane less rapidly if you think of it in terms of word count--so hit that button and find out what we're working with.

I'll be sure to make those corrections then. Word count is hovering at 152k at the moment, and I'm probably going to cut another 2-3k out by the end.

EDIT - its now 359 pages total. The font is a lot bigger than my old one is, and probably completely fragged some of my page set ups. I'm going to have to go back through this now xD

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

Esopha said:
Excellent. I was right.

Ditto on the word count.

And stop talking about homework. It makes us procrastinators feel bad.

That explains your 25k and 30k, I was thinking 'Jesus Christ that's like over nine thousand!'

JoNightshade · Sep 10, 2007

Jay-rod said:
Overall I think its a solid read as far as the first installment of my series goes. First installments are rarely the most memorable or best done, and I treat mine as an introduction to the world my characters live in as their antagonist slowly reveals itself over the course of the story. I'm 100% confident the second installment will be where it shines, followed with an equally exciting conclusion. I try to keep the action fast coming.

Just so you know, this paragraph right here screams "DANGER!" to me. I have no idea if this is true or not for you, but people often write "triolgies" and then discover that their first novel is just background info for the other two.

If you first novel is not "the most memorable" and an "introduction to the world," and your second book is "where it shines"... well, that's a huge indicator to me that book #2 is your real story. Book number one just might be for YOUR benefit as a writer-- but not something that will ever be publishable.

I suggest you post your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum. There are a lot of great critiquers here who will tell you straight out whether they think you have a giant info-dump or a viable story.

Shady Lane · Sep 10, 2007

JoNightshade said:
Just so you know, this paragraph right here screams "DANGER!" to me. I have no idea if this is true or not for you, but people often write "triolgies" and then discover that their first novel is just background info for the other two.

If you first novel is not "the most memorable" and an "introduction to the world," and your second book is "where it shines"... well, that's a huge indicator to me that book #2 is your real story. Book number one just might be for YOUR benefit as a writer-- but not something that will ever be publishable.

I suggest you post your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum. There are a lot of great critiquers here who will tell you straight out whether they think you have a giant info-dump or a viable story.

Chick's got a point.

Esopha · Sep 10, 2007

Jay-rod said:
I'll be sure to make those corrections then. Word count is hovering at 152k at the moment, and I'm probably going to cut another 2-3k out by the end.

Ooh. It's a big book.

You're probably going to have to cut out a bunch more, as well. 100k+ novels are hard sells, even in sci-fi/fantasy, which typically have longer word counts. Sorry about the word count vs. page number mix up. I didn't mean to make you freak out.

Also, listen to Jo. She knows all. Accept it, embrace it.

JoNightshade · Sep 10, 2007

Esopha said:
Also, listen to Jo. She knows all. Accept it, embrace it.

I do?

Wow. That's news to me.

::Wanders off to ask herself some important questions::

Esopha · Sep 10, 2007

JoNightshade said:
I do?

Wow. That's news to me.

::Wanders off to ask herself some important questions::

I can revise my previous statement to:

Listen to Jo. She sort of knows some stuff.

Better?

JoNightshade · Sep 10, 2007

Ummm, now that you mention it, I kinda like the "all-knowing" thing.

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

JoNightshade said:
Just so you know, this paragraph right here screams "DANGER!" to me. I have no idea if this is true or not for you, but people often write "triolgies" and then discover that their first novel is just background info for the other two.

If you first novel is not "the most memorable" and an "introduction to the world," and your second book is "where it shines"... well, that's a huge indicator to me that book #2 is your real story. Book number one just might be for YOUR benefit as a writer-- but not something that will ever be publishable.

I suggest you post your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum. There are a lot of great critiquers here who will tell you straight out whether they think you have a giant info-dump or a viable story.

I probably worded that wrong. The first novel is still with the story. Its not like Tolkien's Simmarlion (sp?) where I just have a huge chunk of lore on a fictional world. The comment on what one would be most memrible is just from personal experience. 'The Gunslinger' isn't the Dark Tower book that stands out the most to me, 'Wolves of the Callah' does. Many Harry Potter fans favor the third book, but you rarely here one who favors the first. My first novel is just as action packed and key to the story as the others are, its just a different focus. Hard to describe without posting some of it I guess. As the first installment in a fictional future, I have to take the liberty of setting several things up for the understanding of the reader. It doesn't distract from the main plot itself, and instead I built what I do share here and there around the plot.

I'll post some of it later, but I'm still tweeking bits here and there. Far as novel size, yeah, I know its big. Then again so is my little tale, and I'm more interested in sharing my tale than making a profit. Like I said this isn't exactly my career of choice.

Esopha · Sep 10, 2007

I will take your comment under advisement.

EDIT:

This is for Jo.

Just Me 2021 · Sep 10, 2007

Hey there, Jay-rod.

Good for you to be writing, and even better for you to be on here getting advice. These people will steer you in the right direction.

Definitely cut, cut, cut your word count. You'll be surprised how much fluff you probably have in there. I know it feels like chopping off your own arm, but do an edit where you cut out every single unnecessary word or phrase or paragraph and see what you end up with. It'll be a tighter, more compelling read and will be much closer to an acceptable book length. Then get it to a few good beta readers.

Keep going - you're on the right track!

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

Just curious around what is expected of an 'acceptable word count?' I find it quite shocking that 150k is considered a lot.

EDIT- http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1624390#post1624390 posted the first part of my first chapter. If I picked up anything from my stephen king reading that influenced me a lot, I like how he divides points of view from character to character with numbers. I re-writ about half my first chapter in my first revision, so I'm not ready to share it yet

Shady Lane · Sep 10, 2007

For sci-fi? 60-120K I'd say is good.

That's for YA. As you will soon learn, I know absolutely nothing that doesn't have to do with YA.

Esopha · Sep 10, 2007

YA fantasy... I think it's about 75k - 100k.

But someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:

I know you're writing sci-fi, but fantasy is my genre.

Jay-rod · Sep 10, 2007

Shady Lane said:
For sci-fi? 60-120K I'd say is good.

That's for YA. As you will soon learn, I know absolutely nothing that doesn't have to do with YA.

by my third draft I'll be around 120-130k, so good to hear.

Deirdre · Sep 10, 2007

Jay-rod said:
Just curious around what is expected of an 'acceptable word count?' I find it quite shocking that 150k is considered a lot.

What you may not know is that the major chains, having noticed that long books from not-so-well-known authors weren't selling (because of cost), imposed a moratorium, which means that authors were being pushed to cut manuscripts.

Even famous authors got hit by this, including, I've heard, Connie Willis.

It'll be monumentally harder to sell anything over 120k in the current market.

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