Changing POV within a scene

[Namatu]

Yes, head-hopping is bad. If you want to change POV within a scene between two characters (not very often, mind you, but do change), is there a "best" way to do it? I have a very long scene, containing many characters, including two key ones from whom the reader needs insight. I could break scene and then switch POV, but as it stares at me now, I don't want to.

Just wondering how others have approached this.

[Azraelsbane]

##

That's all there is to it.

I separate my chapters by time, because there are often years between chapters. Therefore, I might have 2 or 3 scenes in a chapter that happen in the same time frame, but from different povs. Some might swap from one to another in a scene, others might swap to a different MC that is elsewhere.

I swap pov a lot. Probably...2-3 times per chapter. I don't have a specific rule of thumb for pov swaps. Usually, I play a scene out in my head as each of my MCs, whichever pov is most compelling for that particular section, I use.

It is jarring to constantly swap povs every few paragraphs though, imo. My chapters are pretty long 4-8k, and so 2 or 3 scene breaks isn't that jarring (I hope. ). Just my opinion on it.

[NicoleMD]

I know what you mean.

For me, sometimes a scene break is more jarring than a POV shift. How I approach it is I try to take a step back from the first POV by having a couple sentences serve as a neutral buffer before switching to the second POV.

I try to limit myself to one shift per scene so I don't get too indulgent, but do whatever works best for you.

Nicole

[ccarver30]

I did this the other day and it was not really intention. Lemme find it...

[ccarver30]

Doh. Apparently I changed it. LOL Sorry.

I tend to overlap. I have scene A from Clay's POV then the very next break is the same scene from another character's perspective. It doesn't get redundant either. *shrugs*

[Gillhoughly]

I think you're stuck with the ## break--BUT when it goes to print it won't look nearly as horrible as it does in standard MS format. The layout makes it read much more smoothly.

The main thing is your overworked editor--who might possibly be me--will be grateful.

I have a very serious antipathy to head-hopping and usually figure the writer either doesn't know any better or is just sloppy/doesn't care. I've seen both.

I'm currently editing an anthology and emailing writers I've not yet worked with, giving them fair warning about my hot buttons: head-hopping and too! much! exciting! punctuation! in narrative sentences. (For those who enjoy writing the way Captain Kirk speaks.)

Thankfully they are on my side for both. It is to be noted that they have had books on the Times bestseller list, so their opinion is worth considering!

Good luck!

[Namatu]

I'm revising a work that I wrote for fun and heads hop all over the place. Gilloughly, yours would explode if you saw this scene. Brains! Everywhere! Ah!

I'll try out both the break and the several neutral sentences tactic and see which one works best. Head-hopping has become a peeve of mine since I read several books in a row with incessant and unnecessary activity.

[Garpy]

You can signal a head hop with a character action/gesture. For example: -

Bob pulled on his cigarette, and studied the wallpaper.
That's real nice wallpaper the lady's got in this apartment. Jeeeez, just look at that lovely paisley pattern. He realised it would be a long time before he could afford wallpaper like that to dress his place with, especially on the crappy wage he took home every week. His mum always warned him that being a flea-keeper wasn't going to make him a particularly wealthy man. But, it was the kind of job that interested the ladies, and Hell, it got him outside often enough. Better that than being stuck behind a desk all day.

The smell of Bob's cigarette smoke was beginning to bug Betty.
'Hey Bob, stub that out will ya?' She hated the smell, doubly so when it was stale. And that kind of stink settled into the wall paper like you wouldnt believe. etc etc etc etc

It's not unlike the way that you can attribute a line of dialog by getting a character to DO something minor/subtle. Minor point...just don't hop too much. In a scene I might hop from A to B...and maybe even back to A. But definately not A, B, A, B, A etc .

[Namatu]

Yeah, an A to B and maybe back to A is about all I've been considering. I always love the examples that people use.

[Gillhoughly]

Sorry, but the insertion of several neutral sentences still counts as head-hopping. A writer tried that on me a few years back. I asked for a rewrite. She wasn't happy, but after she fixed things the story flow was stronger and I bought it.

You may have to go for a 3rd person omniscient to get in the information you need.

Good luck!

[Namatu]

Can a POV switch within a scene ever be well done?

[Ava Jarvis]

Even the good books that do POV switch in scenes don't do it well enough to keep from making the scene jar.

Try the scene breaks for now.

Get _Self Editing for Fiction Writers_ and read the Point of View chapter that discusses this sort of thing. You will basically get Gillhoughly's answer but in more detail, with other discussion, examples, and exercises.

[Raphee]

I would say use scene breaks. I am trying to write omni with a mix of 3rd limited. I know its against the rules.
Anyway I am finding the scene break is much better even if you do it every few sentences or paragraphs or so. It keeps the flow smoother as one of the posters above said.

[Garpy]

Originally Posted by Gillhoughly

Sorry, but the insertion of several neutral sentences still counts as head-hopping. A writer tried that on me a few years back. I asked for a rewrite. She wasn't happy, but after she fixed things the story flow was stronger and I bought it.

Yes it is head hopping...but it's a rule I've guiltily broken from time to time when needs must. I'll admit though that if I can, I'll seperate a scene with a '***' to cut between heads.

[Shane Fitzsimmons]

Unless you're going omniscient, head hopping in a single scene is bad. Whenever you approach a scene, you should decide who is going to be the most interesting perspective to see things through, and then stick with it. There are some instances where it's necessary to get multiple perspectives out of the same scene, but in this case you should probably write the same scene several times over from different perspectives, without really retelling the scene over again in the same way. Obviously if the perspective is omniscient then this isn't an issue, but unless your entire book is omniscient, you should almost never switch to that perspective. The only exceptions I've experienced where this was okay was when the author took a step back from any of the perspectives, and instead talked about the world or a large location.

For instance, if Bob is about to bring his army to Castle Mountain Dew, and rather than wanting to tell the story from any specific character's head, you just want to give the general feeling of what's going on in the village about to be attacked, then switching -- briefly -- to omniscient to describe an old woman going into her underground shelter, then to a family boarding up their windows and barricading their doors, etc. That sort of thing is usually okay in moderation.

Anyway, if you're not going omniscient, and you're not approaching your story like Quentin Tarantino, then you should approach every scene from the most interesting, and most relevant character's perspective possible. Switching up to another point of view in the middle of a scene just so that we can know ahead of time that Jackie is about to pull a knife is pretty lame and unnecessary.

[scarletpeaches]

Head hopping? Again?

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHH!!!!!!!

[Azraelsbane]

Originally Posted by scarletpeaches

Head hopping? Again?

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHH!!!!!!!

Get ye back to yer tankard and hush, heathen!

[Doogs]

IMO, Philip Pullman pulls this off quite well in the His Dark Materials trilogy, and particularly in The Amber Spyglass. I normally detest head-hopping, but he pulled off the POV changes in a way that didn't bug me in the least. Might be worth checking out.

[donroc]

I have used it in the opening chapters of my horror novel to show husband and wife are on same "page" regarding goals until she has new secrets and he cannot know what she is thinking or has been doing -- nor should the reader -- until the end.

www.donaldmichaelplatt.com

[Gillhoughly]

Not to worry, head-hopping is sometimes hard to avoid, it just takes a bit of practice.

We've ALL done it.

My books are usually in 1st person, so it's not a problem, but I wrote a 3rd person novella for an invitation-only collection. I did a head-hop without realizing it. The editor sent my piece back with a gentle admonishment to "fix it."

As she was and is a multiple-Hugo winner whose work I adore I looked at the bit through new eyes, blushed mightily, and fixed it. The rewrite was better and stronger for staying in the hero's head.

I collaborated with a non-writer on a series, and he turned in an otherwise smokin' hot love scene that bounced between the characters like a slow motion tennis ball. I let him know that was not the "done thing" and though it was news to him, he instantly got it and did a fantastic rewrite. For the rest of the series he never made the mistake again. (Fast learner!)

Now there is a very well known fantasy writer who had head-hopping in his first bestseller that came out in the mid-70's. I don't know if he still does that because I've never read another of his books since. Life's too short for me to waste time on sloppiness.

[nevada]

If you want to see how to change POV within a scene succesfully, check out some good romance novels. Try Suzanne Brockmann. Susan Elizabeth Philips. Stay away from Nora Roberts and Elizabeth Lowell. Notorious headhoppers. Anyway, while you normally wouldnt want to switch pov's in the middle of a scene. romance writers do it all the time, usually during the naughty bits, to get the feeling of what both characters are feeling. The trick is to find a bit in the scene that is a natural beat, a breathing space if you will. Don't just switch willynilly. Find a natural beat and switch it there. Good luck

[maestrowork]

Originally Posted by Gillhoughly

My books are usually in 1st person, so it's not a problem, but I wrote a 3rd person novella for an invitation-only collection. I did a head-hop without realizing it. The editor sent my piece back with a gentle admonishment to "fix it."[/IMG]

Head-hopping is not my problem, but slipping into omniscient while in 3rd limited is... When I write in 1st person, it's not problem because I'm in the narrator's head all the time. But in 3rd limited, sometimes I have troubles keeping my POV with the character. There would be slight POV violations (e.g. describing his clothes or what's happening behind him, etc.) -- they are not bad, easily fixable in rewrites.

Yeah, don't worry about it... rewrites can be fun that way, to catch all these little niggles.

[Doogs]

Originally Posted by maestrowork

Head-hopping is not my problem, but slipping into omniscient while in 3rd limited is...

This is a problem for me, too. Not so much for describing clothing as for covering larger events. Battle scenes, for example.

[Julie Worth]

Originally Posted by Namatu

I could break scene and then switch POV, but as it stares at me now, I don't want to.

You don't have to break the scene, in my opinion. Just be clear whose head you're in, and don't do it too often. The readers who aren't writers won't fault you for it.

[jodiodi]

OK, there are way too many 'dos and don'ts' in this thread alone, not counting all the other PoV threads I've seen on here. I'm now completely confused.

I admit to headhopping. I was told it was bad. I corrected myself and tried to attone for my sins. So I stay in one PoV per scene/chapter. However, I've always seen my stories in an omniscient manner. So what's wrong with omniscient and how is it different from head-hopping?

I write romance (of a sort) and as in one of the previous posts, I find it difficult to stay in one POV during character interaction in 'the naughty bits'. I do it, but to me, it lacks depth and emotion.

I've got a headache now.