POV preferences

Oberon · Aug 8, 2007

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I haven't found it. I started my present WIP in first person present tense, partly to try it out, see how it works. I wanted to get into my MC's head, his thoughts, as if he were talking to himself. It's not easy. I keep tripping over tense shifts and keeping a consistent style. Most of the stuff I have read with this POV is the hard-boiled detective kind of thing.

From what I have read here at AW it seems that agents will not like this POV. Is that true? If so, I may have to do some major rewriting.

"When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns." Raymond Chandler.

Azraelsbane · Aug 8, 2007

There are plenty of extremely popular 1st person works out there. Agents like strong characters, plots, and good writing above all else. If 1st person gets you these things, I'd say stay with it. If you're having trouble with 1st person, try 3rd limited. You can get inside your chars head just fine, but some people find it easier.

Lady Cat · Aug 8, 2007

I agree with Azraelsbane. I've read a lot of great novels written in 1st person POV, and a lot of them written in 3rd person. Agents are looking for great writing, not the POV.

A lot of times it depends on the story you're telling. Sometimes an idea will lend itself more to one point of view than the other. If you're not sure, try it both ways to see which one works best.

necia phoenix · Aug 8, 2007

You know, personally, I really dislike writing 1st person, I don't care for reading it either. HOWEVER, it is a good way to get inside characters heads, I will write it to get a better understanding of my characters. The bottom line is, in my unprofessional opinion, if it is written well it will sell.

Ever read the Garrett PI series by Glen Cook? Or his Black Company series? both are written 1st person and are great books. Nerilka's Story by Anne McCaffery is also written in 1st person and have a good emotional kick to them. To get a feel for writing it, read it.

Dave.C.Robinson · Aug 8, 2007

If you write in first person present you will find some agents, and potential readers, who will hate it. Some don't like first person, others don't like present tense. It doesn't matter, provided you do it well enough.

It's a matter of taste. If you're able to pull off a good novel in first person present you will be able to sell it. If you write a bad novel in third person past you're going to have many agents and publishers hate it. Write it well.

The problem you face is that many people find that present tense magnifies faults in your writing. It's less forgiving than past tense, so for many it has to be better written to get over the hurdles.

If you can write it well enough, go ahead and use it. If you can't, either write something else or work on learning how to write it well enough.

Simon Woodhouse · Aug 8, 2007

I'm not a fan of first person perspective in general, but having said that, when it's done well it's really effective. The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath always springs to mind as an excellent example of first person.

I think you've got to have top-notch characters to make it work. If the characters aren't there, first person is a real hard slog to get through.

JasonChirevas · Aug 8, 2007

Oberon said:
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I haven't found it. I started my present WIP in first person present tense, partly to try it out, see how it works. I wanted to get into my MC's head, his thoughts, as if he were talking to himself. It's not easy. I keep tripping over tense shifts and keeping a consistent style. Most of the stuff I have read with this POV is the hard-boiled detective kind of thing.

From what I have read here at AW it seems that agents will not like this POV. Is that true? If so, I may have to do some major rewriting.

"When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns." Raymond Chandler.

My current WIP is Third Person Objective, but I will absolutely return to First Person POV. I enjoy writing and reading it.

I think a writer's level of success with First Person has a lot to do with his ability to relate to, captivate, and entertain people in direct communication. That's all First Person is, a long letter to the reader. It's all dialog. If you're not good with dialog, you should probably give First Person a wide berth.

As for tense, I would never read or write anything in present tense. To much of a stunt to me.

-Jason

Marion · Aug 8, 2007

I changed my first chapter to present tense just to see how it flowed. In my opinion it became tedious, so I changed it back.

I think it's ok for a couple of paragraphs either at the beginning of the book, or at the end, or even in a prologue. Other than that - nuh, don't do it.

Claudia Gray · Aug 8, 2007

I've seen excellent first-person present tense -- look at the recent YA novel Bloom by Elizabeth Scott for a very fine example -- but I think present tense is a lot more demanding. If you can pull it off, you rock.

That said, I stick to past tense, at least so far.

maestrowork · Aug 8, 2007

Marion said:
I changed my first chapter to present tense just to see how it flowed. In my opinion it became tedious, so I changed it back.

I think it's ok for a couple of paragraphs either at the beginning of the book, or at the end, or even in a prologue. Other than that - nuh, don't do it.

"Don't do it" is very strong. I personally don't find present tense tedious. My novel was written almost entirely in first/present. Works fine.

Like Simon said, first person is always about the narrating character and his/her voice. If you have an engaging narrator, you can pull it off beautifully and give your readers a really close experience alongside your POV character.

Shady Lane · Aug 8, 2007

I love first person, and I love present tense.

TONS of YA is written like this.

reenkam · Aug 8, 2007

I find present tense annoying. There are usually sentences that just sound really strange and I'll get caught on them mid-reading and realizing I'm reading, which ruins the reading experience.

I don't have a problem with first person, though.

Raphee · Aug 8, 2007

I have nothing against any POV. I read in all and enjoy them. However if given a choice the last thing I would like to read is present tense.
Having said that I recently read a novel Heat and Dust which was later adapted for a movie; and it used 1st person past and present tenses and in two POV's.
I thoroughly enjoyed that.
It's the skill of the writer, in weaving the story.
My only issue is that a lot of people get turned off by present tense while picking books from a book store. OK change that to ...I tend to do that.

Second is to avoid self indulgence that creeps into 1st person present.

wayndom · Aug 8, 2007

Are people still writing novels in present tense? I thought that was a fad started by young writing students, who didn't want to be told by "the man" how to write...

As far as POV is concerned, whatever works. Raymond Chandler didn't have a problem with first-person. In fact, it's what made his books (I don't think anyone has ever figured out what's going on in The Big Sleep).

But present tense? C'mon... Past tense is natural, because when a storyteller tells a story, it's told as something that already happened, and our brains are ready to receive it that way. There may have been some big successful books written in present tense, but I can't imagine that the tense is what made them successful. For most readers, present tense is like the writer constantly reminding them they're reading a story. In other words, it's a distraction from the story, not an enhancement.

Let the flaming begin...

Shady Lane · Aug 8, 2007

wayndom said:
Are people still writing novels in present tense? I thought that was a fad started by young writing students, who didn't want to be told by "the man" how to write...

As far as POV is concerned, whatever works. Raymond Chandler didn't have a problem with first-person. In fact, it's what made his books (I don't think anyone has ever figured out what's going on in The Big Sleep).

But present tense? C'mon... Past tense is natural, because when a storyteller tells a story, it's told as something that already happened, and our brains are ready to receive it that way. There may have been some big successful books written in present tense, but I can't imagine that the tense is what made them successful. For most readers, present tense is like the writer constantly reminding them they're reading a story. In other words, it's a distraction from the story, not an enhancement.

Let the flaming begin...

Not here to flame, because it's not really an opinion I'm arguing here.

Honestly, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a world with different books than you guys have.

Present tense is huge in YA, like I said.

I promise.

At least in my world.

HopelessDreamer · Aug 8, 2007

wayndom said:
But present tense? C'mon... Past tense is natural, because when a storyteller tells a story, it's told as something that already happened, and our brains are ready to receive it that way. There may have been some big successful books written in present tense, but I can't imagine that the tense is what made them successful. For most readers, present tense is like the writer constantly reminding them they're reading a story. In other words, it's a distraction from the story, not an enhancement.

Let the flaming begin...

I agree. I'm not exactly sure why; maybe it's because so many novels are written in past tense and it just seems like "the norm" (our brains are conditioned to recieve information from books in the past tense), so when we read a book in present tense it just doesn't seem to fit. When I read a book in present tense, I always feel as though everything is rushed. I don't have anything against people writing in present tense, it's just not my preference.

seun · Aug 9, 2007

What about second person, future tense?

Or am I just taking the piss?

maestrowork · Aug 9, 2007

wayndom said:
Are people still writing novels in present tense? I thought that was a fad started by young writing students, who didn't want to be told by "the man" how to write...

Oh yeah, and by famous and award-winning authors, too. Not your everyday high school kids.

But present tense? C'mon... Past tense is natural, because when a storyteller tells a story, it's told as something that already happened, and our brains are ready to receive it that way.

Here we go again... the tense, to me, has nothing to do with whether a story has already happened or in real time. It's about a feeling of intimacy and immediacy. Also, it works better with first person because that's how people talk.

Look at this site. Most posts are written in present tense. It's natural for people to write in present tense when they speak in first person.

There may have been some big successful books written in present tense, but I can't imagine that the tense is what made them successful.

The same can be said about past tense. I doubt that the "past tense" is what makes books like Harry Potter successful. It's the storytelling. The tenses are just tools, like POVs, and each story calls for different tools. There's no way you can say if the big successful book would have been even bigger and more successful had it been written in past tense.

In fact, I can't imagine Fight Club, for example, to be written in anything but first person/present tense. Just can't. It would have lost its soul, in my opinion. We'd have missed the immediacy as if the narrator was right there speaking to us. I could even smell his breath.

For most readers, present tense is like the writer constantly reminding them they're reading a story. In other words, it's a distraction from the story, not an enhancement.

I don't think you can speak for "most" readers. For you, perhaps. For me, I am perfectly engaged with first/present. Read many books written in present tense and they were great reads.

Dave.C.Robinson · Aug 9, 2007

I personally find a sense of artificial immediacy in present tense, and for me the artifice comes out more clearly than anything else. I prefer to read in past because I find it more transparent and so I can focus more on the story than the writing.

I believe the right tense for any story is whichever one is most transparent. You want the reader to be wowed by your story, not your tricks of language.

I've read and enjoyed books in both past and present tense, but I find that present magnifies the writer's flaws. All this means is that for me, a book written in present has to be better written to induce that all-important reader's trance.

All I really insist on is that the tense doesn't change within a paragraph. Different scenes can be written in different tenses, but never change tense by accident.

maestrowork · Aug 9, 2007

Dave.C.Robinson said:
All I really insist on is that the tense doesn't change within a paragraph. Different scenes can be written in different tenses, but never change tense by accident.

It depends, but I agree that it has to make sense:

"I hear her coming in, the bell on the door ringing three times. She looks absolutely beautiful in the dress she bought yesterday. She went all the way to the East Side to find that dress, and it's perfect for her. I love that woman. I'll marry her today if she'd let me."

Here, we have mixed tenses, but it sounds natural. The story is essentially told in first person/present, but it doesn't mean it's present tense all the way. The right tense has to be used. In essence, I think first person/present is very much like an omniscient narrator -- it's about the voice and the consistency and the sense of closeness. First person/present, to me, is like having the narrator sitting next to you and say, "Hey, buddy, how are you doing? And listen..."

And above seems to lose something if it's written in past tense:

"I heard her coming in, the bell on the door ringing three times. She looked absolutely beautiful in the dress she'd bought the day before. She'd gone all the way to the East Side to find that dress, and it was perfect for her. I loved that woman. I'd have married her that day if she'd let me."

It doesn't read the same.

Spiny Norman · Aug 9, 2007

I find myself agreeing with maestrowork an awful lot when the tense can of worms is opened.

Anyways, I usually write in first person/past, and slip into first/present when it comes to memories or flashbacks. I think I may have absorbed that tactic from John le Carre, who also uses present flashbacks with 3rd limited. The reasoning behind it is that when it comes to flashbacks or memories then it's happening to the character in a much more immediate and intimate sense than any action in the story's world. I especially use it in my current WIP, because he reflects heavily upon how purpose, memories, and linear progression works, and he considers certain memories or past events to be still happening because they're still controlling what he's doing in the present.

I like first/past a lot as well because it gives me the opportunity to really create a character's voice in detail. I'm citing Catcher in the Rye here as an example of that. You want to make a character whose voice is so magnetic and so charismatic that you'll sit through and listen to him talk about the use of the words "fuck you," or, with Chandler and Marlowe, about the different kinds of blondes there are, and which ones listen to Hindemith. You can only get that level of charisma with first person.

Mud Dauber · Aug 9, 2007

Shady Lane said:
Honestly, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a world with different books than you guys have.

Present tense is huge in YA, like I said.

I promise.

At least in my world.

LOL I agree! A lot of chick lit is written in present tense, too.

If a story draws me in, I don't even notice the tense. First person present has never irritated me the way it goads some people here. To the OP: this subject comes up from time to time on AW, and the majority of members (or at least the responses) are always against it. But judging by many popular/successful novels out there, there's obviously a market for it. So don't sweat it. Do what feels right.

Spiny Norman · Aug 9, 2007

When it comes to art (how pretentious is this start, huh?) if you notice the method then it's not being used effectively. Zooms and camera angles and lighting in movies, tenses and pacing and word use in writing, other stuff I don't know a whole lot about in sculpture - these are tools that are supposed to be used towards an end. If you do it badly, they're going to stick out like a Smothers Brother in a White Panther convention. Do it well, you get sucked in and only notice in repeat viewings/readings. Or if you're unfortunate enough to know a little before you start and pay a lot of attention.

That's my two cents on almost any methodology in writing. From characters to dialogue to whatever.

aadams73 · Aug 9, 2007

Mud Dauber said:
If a story draws me in, I don't even notice the tense.

Ditto. Or the POV.

Although lately I'm a little tired of first because it's starting to sound a little samey in certain genres.

scarletpeaches · Aug 9, 2007

For me, present tense is a piece of piss. It's the most natural, the easiest thing in the world for me to write.

First person, though...that's another story (if you'll pardon the pun).

I'm forcing myself to write in third limited past now, even though that's not my default setting as it's the most popular, the most easily-accepted, so I figure I can start the experimentation once I'm established and people are more willing to try new things for the sake of a well-liked author.

Although for me of course, present tense isn't an experiment, it's just what I do when I don't think about POV and tense.

POV preferences

Oberon

Azraelsbane

Agony is defeat

Lady Cat

necia phoenix

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

Simon Woodhouse

JasonChirevas

Marion

Claudia Gray

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

reenkam

aka cupcake

Raphee

In debt to AW

wayndom

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

HopelessDreamer

seun

Horror Man

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Spiny Norman

Mud Dauber

writing on the wall

Spiny Norman

aadams73

A Work in Progress

scarletpeaches