Is there originality still?

Well...yes. And you do have completely new, fresh concepts like the matrix from Neuromancer, they're just less common than putting a fresh twist on things, obviously.

I think completely new ideas are possible...of course, I can't give an example cause then it'd be a compeltely new idea which I should use myself...

But I also think that changing old ideas and making them fresh and new is just as original. Lots of stories have the same 'base' but it's the characters and the exact events and setting etc. that make it original.

Originality is self-explanatory isn't it, Samuel?

It's something original, although there are degrees of originality where, as you say, a new twist is put on old tale.

What is the deal? What point are you trying to make?

Most often it IS about a new twist to the same old story, probably with a combination of multiple things that don't seem to relate to each other at all. Jurassic Park is a combination of many different elements of tried-and-true plots: cloning, scientific experiments, dinosaurs on the loose, man vs. nature, being stranded on an island, sabotage, etc. Take each element apart and there's nothing too original about them. But mix them all up, you have something no one has seen before.

Terry Pratchett

maestrowork said:

Most often it IS about a new twist to the same old story

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Raymond is right. Books like JURASSIC PARK are a fresh twist on old themes. I look at JP as a variation of the basic haunted house story. The theme is not original but the story sure was. For that matter, so was THE DAVINCI CODE. Love it or hate it, the story was a basic murder mystery/thriller, but the premise of Jesus marrying and having children whose decedents are alive today was a new fresh twist. And 40 million readers agreed.

No doubt there are mountains of cliché-based novels out there, and you have to hunt for the truly original ideas, but when you find one, it’s worth all the effort. For a fantastic example of a new spin on an old tale, read DARKLY DREAMING DEXTER by Jeff Lindsay.

Oberon said:

Terry Pratchett

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No, no...humans have believed that the Earth's disc rests upon the back of four elephants, which stand on a giant sea turtle swimming the cosmic waves since - well, since the invention of the clock radio. Maybe earlier. I don't know. Time is difficult to measure before the invention of the clock radio.

What happens when your story is pretty much something new?
Or an old concept but so changed and put on a dose of steroids...
that's originality right?

I guess we can call originality the recycling of old ideas.
Geniality is coming up with something totally new.

Gravity defying upside down large breasts

Basilides said:

No, no...humans have believed that the Earth's disc rests upon the back of four elephants, which stand on a giant sea turtle swimming the cosmic waves since - well, since the invention of the clock radio. Maybe earlier. I don't know. Time is difficult to measure before the invention of the clock radio.

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Since half past an elephant's butt, that's when.

Oberon said:

Terry Pratchett

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Terry Pratchett writes satire, so he's not pulling these stories out of thin air. Monstrous Regiment is the same story as Mulan, and Lord Vetinari is the epitome of the benevolent dictator archetype.

Why can't a new twist on an old idea be considered as original as a whole new idea?

It depends on so much, including how original the twist is, how often the idea has been overused, and most importantly how well you pull it off.

Dave.C.Robinson said:

It depends on so much, including how original the twist is, how often the idea has been overused, and most importantly how well you pull it off.

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What Bufty said:

Bufty said:

Originality is self-explanatory isn't it, Samuel?

It's something original, although there are degrees of originality where, as you say, a new twist is put on old tale.

What is the deal? What point are you trying to make?

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"Degrees of originality"

Agents and publishers want to see stuff that is new and original, just like all the other stuff.

caw

Originality

As I said in another post, I think the only originality tehre is in the world is the individual person. Put yourself into the writing, and it will be at least somewhat original.

But if you really want to be original, then do whatever it is better than anyone else ever has. Few things are as rare, or as original, as something extremely well done.

Upside down tits are more original that anything well done

Originality

Hello, All.

No, I don't believe there is anything original plot-wise. Chances are, even if there isn't a novel published within the past 20 years like the one you've written, there will be a simliar story line in years passed.

However, IMO originality has little to do with the story in itself. It's your delivery, your particular emphasis on the elements of your craft. It's like braiding or weaving. You can give ten people the same cords, or yarns, and tell them to create something without communicating with any other person in the group. Even if two people use the same method of weaving, odds are, the end product will not have any simlilarities.

So, yes and no. No original stories, but that's okay. The telling is what should matter. How many professional storytellers have recanted the same stories for years? What separates them isn't their stories, it's how they act and perform.

No original story lines? Of course there are original story lines. There are original characters. There are worlds being created that are chalk full of originality and new ideas. There are writers creating whole universes of things and places and races that we have yet to explore.

BUT, if you're talking about the bare bones of what makes a STORY work, then that's a little different. That's why writing is a craft: you have to take those original ideas and twist them into a form that is not only recognizable but familiar for your readers. Does this have to happen always? No, it doesn't. I love the theatre, but Brecht and Beckett are a whole different kettle of fish for most theatre-goers.

You'll hear people talk about Joseph Campbell's hero's journey--it's not bullsh*t. Neither are the archetypes specific to most writing. Good writing is, first and foremost, good storytelling. And how do stories begin? "Once upon a time." How do they end? "The End." Your job as a writer is to take your idea, and take it from Once upon a time to The End in such a way that you grab readers and drag them along with you. So you have a wise, venerable wizard in your fantasy story--does that mean you're stealing from Tolkien--who stole from Mallory--who stole from Homer? No, it means you are incorporating a familiar character archetype into your story; you are signposting to your reader THIS IS THE MENTOR--PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE/SHE SAYS! Then you take that character and make him/her into your own. It's only if your give the wizard the ideosyncracies that cause him to live and walk and breathe that the character becomes YOUR creation and not someone else's.

Don't sell yourselves short. It's entirely possible that someone will come up with a completely new genre and style of writing in our lifetimes. It's more important for the here and now that writers don't torture themselves with thoughts of 'lack of originality.' Any individual thought is original.

orig.

mscelina said:

No original story lines? Of course there are original story lines. There are original characters. There are worlds being created that are chalk full of originality and new ideas. There are writers creating whole universes of things and places and races that we have yet to explore.

BUT, if you're talking about the bare bones of what makes a STORY work, then that's a little different. That's why writing is a craft: you have to take those original ideas and twist them into a form that is not only recognizable but familiar for your readers. Does this have to happen always? No, it doesn't. I love the theatre, but Brecht and Beckett are a whole different kettle of fish for most theatre-goers.

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I had assumed that was what we were talking about, the bare bones, which is the straight plot. The deviations in elements and events creates the originality for the writer.

It isn't a reason to panic at all. How many books are out there that's man-meets-woman? Man goes against a corporation/government and the odds? Detective seeks serial killer? A haunted house? A fantastic voyage? An exposing look at the rich?

Writing is beautiful because so many stories can use these simplistic summaries and be so amazingly different. Red Dragon, Intensity, Whispers, and Murder on the Orient Express can all be catagorized as a search for a killer. BUT. All completely different styles, characters, events, and in combination, you wouldn't really think they were similiar in any sense.

I think there is plenty of potential for originality.

But I don't think a lot of it is the kind of thing many people would buy.

For a musical example: Jandek. Totally original, bears absolutely no relation to other music. And it disturbs most people.

To be really original, rather than making something old "fresh", I think requires risk. It doesn't look like taking risks is very popular at the moment. Not that this is good or bad, but it seems to be the condition of things.

Is there originality still?

Was there ever?

"Beginning artists borrow; mature artists steal." -- (attributed to so many artists it'll make your head spin)

"Someone gets in trouble, then gets out of it. People love that story -- they never get tired of it." -- Isaac Asimov

If you could come up with a story that was completely new in all of it's composite parts, no one would read it. Or, if anyone did, it would never be considered a great work.

Why? It lacks inter-textuality. Something wholly original can't reference anything else or it's no longer original, right? I think a lot of people take new twists on old themes. The fine points of the plot need to differ, but the tropes and plot progression doesn't.

Upside down.

davids said:

Upside down tits are more original that anything well done

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Well, I've never seen upside down tits, but I've very seldom seen anything really well done, either. Still, you may be right. I'm not real sure how this is going to help your writing, but, yep, you may be right.