I've heard and read some pretty wild statements from Christians about HP and what it means. Why is it so threatening to people? (I remember a debate on a UK Religious TV show about the corrupting influence of Star Wars because it espoused The Force...). What re people's views here. Genuinely very interested. I thought it was just a bunch of books for kids.
Christianity and Harry Potter
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I think you'll probably find a wide variance of views on HP within Christian circles. Personally, I don't have a problem with it; both my kids have read the books. But I've heard that some take issue with it due to the presence of scorcery in it. I don't know...Tolkein's books had wizards and evil characters as well...I think this is probably one of those many gray areas where you just need to follow your own spiritual and parental instincts.
I don't have a problem with Harry Potter either, although many in my church do. Most of these, however, have never even read the books, and are taking the word of other people who have similarly never read the book. They'll point to the Biblical admonition against witchcraft while ignoring the fact that Harry Potter has as little to do with witchcraft as did the TV show Bewitched.
I honestly think it's just part of a trend throughout our country where we feel we have to be *Alarmed* by things. And I think it's a shame, because there are a much more pressing things to be alarmed about in today's world.
I honestly think it's just part of a trend throughout our country where we feel we have to be *Alarmed* by things. And I think it's a shame, because there are a much more pressing things to be alarmed about in today's world.
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I think the main problem some Christians have with the books, apart from the depiction of magic in mostly positive terms, is the absence of Christ.
Harry Potter is quite a role model for kids--honest, moral, compassionate, loyal to his friends, (even to the point of putting their welfare ahead of his own) and although often terrified, dedicated to the fight of good against evil.
But nowhere in the books is the presence of Christ even hinted at--even allegorically. The implication is that if you're emotionally strong enough, and believe in yourself, you can be a moral figure and do all these things on your own, without the help of Christ. And some (not all) Christians believe this is a dangerous falsehood that children need to be protected from.
Harry Potter is quite a role model for kids--honest, moral, compassionate, loyal to his friends, (even to the point of putting their welfare ahead of his own) and although often terrified, dedicated to the fight of good against evil.
But nowhere in the books is the presence of Christ even hinted at--even allegorically. The implication is that if you're emotionally strong enough, and believe in yourself, you can be a moral figure and do all these things on your own, without the help of Christ. And some (not all) Christians believe this is a dangerous falsehood that children need to be protected from.
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The only problem with protecting children from that falsehood is that there are an infinite number of books out there that also do not mention Christ, and promote self-sufficiency. Rather than forbid your child to read them, it seems it'd be a whole lot more beneficial just to talk to them about that premise. That way, maybe they'll learn to recognize it for themselves when they read it later.
The Narnia tales don't 'mention' Christ either...and the parallels between the Savior and Harry are numerous: some are obvious, some aren't, without specialized knowledge. See the following article about the parallels, it may surprise you (15 pages long, with 3-4 pages of footnotes).
Is Harry Potter Allegory?
Pat~ said:
See above.
Interesting quotes from the article:
"When asked whether she is Christian, author J.K. Rowling states:
“Yes, I am, which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I’ve been asked if I believe in God, I’ve said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that [her Christianity] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what’s coming in the books.”(1)"
"Rowling maintains,
“There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed, as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything...everything has been building up to it, and I’ve laid all my clues.”(245)
She has laid her clues. She has said she couldn’t answer questions about the book’s religious content until the conclusion of book seven.(246) When questioned about her belief in God, Rowling avoids the question. “This is so frustrating. Again, there is so much I would like to say, and come back when I’ve written book seven. But then maybe won’t need to even say it ’cause you’ll have found it out anyway. You’ll have read it.”(247)
She cautiously contradicts an interviewer’s assertion that her books are free of references to God. “Um. I don’t think they’re that secular,” she says, choosing her words slowly. “But, obviously, Dumbledore is not Jesus.”(248) Of course he isn’t – Harry is."Many Christians savaged C.S. Lewis when the Narnia tales came out, much as John Bunyan slammed Handel for his Messiah (What??? Putting the Sacred Words of Scripture to secular music??? Horrors!).
Read the article. The parallels are systematic, and far too many to ignore.
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Yes, Zonk, I'm not saying HP necessarily promotes self-sufficiency; I was more just trying to point out the futility of trying to prevent your child from ever reading that type of premise.
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It's just a fictional story. I'd be offended if it "mentioned" but misrepresented Jesus or Christianity to the fans (which is what I disdain about HIS DARK MATERIALS/THE GOLDEN COMPASS etc) ... but HP is just a big long Halloween lark, I suppose? Ooooh! Scary make-believe!
I mean, I'd dislike it more if in the last book someone burnt Harry as a witch, right?
I mean, I'd dislike it more if in the last book someone burnt Harry as a witch, right?
I hadn't even thought of that. As an athesit self sufficiency is at the core of things, promoting, I hasten to add, the very characteristics ascribed as admirable to HP earlier in the thread. In all truth I find the idea that parents are concerned at the idea of their child exploring the idea of self-sufficiency appalling. Shouldn't everyone come to their faith on their own terms, whatever that faith may be.
And another point, can anyone write a story about a hero setting themselves at risk against evil and NOT have someone say 'its a Christian Allegory'? Other considerations aside (I don't mean to denegrate them, but rather not discuss them in this context) isn't the story of Christ a pretty typical (in terms of structure only - again , I am not intending to insult or denegrate) example of the 'Hero's Journey' - other examples being The Iliad, Star Wars and so on? And so any hero's journey, by definition, is bound to be compared. I haven;t read them so for all I know, HP could be a powerful adn deliberate Christian Allegory for all Iknow. I certainly am aware of the charge being laid at the door of LotR, which was always refuted by the author, who despised allegory in all its forms (and the fact that Samwas the real hero of LotR kind of nixed that one anyway).
And as an aside, how do people feel about 'The Chroinicles of Ancient Darkness' which depicts a world full of spirits and powers that cut directly across the Christian canon? Set in the Ancient World, for sure, but most of the beliefs depicted still survive today.
And the witchcraft thing - does anyone still believe that stuff is real? Aren't we past all that, and wasn't all the possession stuff in the 17th Century in America put down to Ergot poisoning from mouldy rye? (Ergot contains Lysergic Acid, essentially LSD).
Still curious and confused.
Banning books should be a crime.
Christianity always has to have its foot in everything.
I don't recall there being anything in the bible stating: thou shalt not read fiction.
But I've been wrong before.
Harry Potter = fiction
Star Wars = fiction
LOTR = fiction
Fiction: stories about characters and events that are not real
So I have to wonder why Christians would want anything regarding their God in a book labeled FICTION? And why they get upset when He isn't.
Christianity always has to have its foot in everything.
I don't recall there being anything in the bible stating: thou shalt not read fiction.
But I've been wrong before.
Harry Potter = fiction
Star Wars = fiction
LOTR = fiction
Fiction: stories about characters and events that are not real
So I have to wonder why Christians would want anything regarding their God in a book labeled FICTION? And why they get upset when He isn't.
A Church of England vicar, a few years ago, did a Harry Potter communion service. He dressed as Dumbledore, and other members of the church dressed as the other characters. I think it went down quite well as a one off service.
And if people want to ban books, they should at least have the decency to read them first, to see for themselves what the books are like.
And if people want to ban books, they should at least have the decency to read them first, to see for themselves what the books are like.
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What I've heard said is that while stories like LOTR have magic, it's not humans performing it. It's the fact that HP is the one who has these powers (instead of fighting bad guys who have it) that makes HP more threatening to some.
I'm pretty firmly Christian, and I love the Harry Potter books. I think books can promote good morals without being explicitly Christian/religious in nature.
The lessons in the HP books are lessons all kids could stand to learn--the redeeming power of love, looking beyond people's outward appearances, standing up for what's right at all costs, etc., etc.
Just my opinion.
The lessons in the HP books are lessons all kids could stand to learn--the redeeming power of love, looking beyond people's outward appearances, standing up for what's right at all costs, etc., etc.
Just my opinion.
It's only a trend? I thought it was a time-honored tradition here in America, immortalized by the Broadway musical "The Music Man."
Yes! We've got TROUBLE!
Right here in River City!
My whole take on Harry Potter is that Rowling was trying to recapture the glory days of Pre-WW II Britain and present it in a palatable manner to today's generation of British children.
-- the old locomotive trains
-- dragons
-- wizards
-- boarding schools
-- uniforms
-- decorum
-- ancient traditions
-- respect for one's edlers
-- respect for the past
-- the old suitcases
-- the old automobiles
-- fountain pens and/or quill pens
-- castles
-- witches
That laundry list represents some of the most treasured aspects of their history and their cultural identity--some of which are gone forever, or at the very least have been devalued and striped of a former dignity. They were all once important elements of what it once meant to be British. Today's generation of British (and American) children don't know about any of that except what they might glean passingly from books and old movies, and maybe the musings/grumblings of old people that they might come in contact with.
The whole Harry Potter series celebrates that and makes kids just marvel about it. J K Rowling is holding up those old traditions for the eyes of British children, and asking them to be proud of their past. AND she's asking them to emmulate the same degree of dignity and the respect toward authority and tradition that children of yesteryear employed.
One of the bitter and angry struggles Rowling had with Warner Brothers when they were in the early stages of developing the first film was her unbudging insistance that not one American actor was to be cast in any of the roles, most especially not the children's roles. That's because British people have for decades now seen so very many of their most beloved stories hijacked by American film studios and Americanized ("Winnie the Pooh" is a classic example. And look at Elijah Wood playing Frodo, and Sean Astin playing Sam). Their culture is being siphoned away from them via American cinema -- robbed from them. She wanted only British children playing those British roles for the sake of the millions of British children who would be greatly encouraged to see one of their own up on the screen for a change. In her mind, this story firmly belongs to the cultural identy of Britain and needs to stay there, even in its film versions.
Christians are focusing on the wrong issue here in the HP series of books and movies. They're up in arms over the magic and witchcraft. But they're overlooking the respect toward others and the dignity toward self and the reverence of tradition that the children in those stories exhibit.
-- the old locomotive trains
-- dragons
-- wizards
-- boarding schools
-- uniforms
-- decorum
-- ancient traditions
-- respect for one's edlers
-- respect for the past
-- the old suitcases
-- the old automobiles
-- fountain pens and/or quill pens
-- castles
-- witches
That laundry list represents some of the most treasured aspects of their history and their cultural identity--some of which are gone forever, or at the very least have been devalued and striped of a former dignity. They were all once important elements of what it once meant to be British. Today's generation of British (and American) children don't know about any of that except what they might glean passingly from books and old movies, and maybe the musings/grumblings of old people that they might come in contact with.
The whole Harry Potter series celebrates that and makes kids just marvel about it. J K Rowling is holding up those old traditions for the eyes of British children, and asking them to be proud of their past. AND she's asking them to emmulate the same degree of dignity and the respect toward authority and tradition that children of yesteryear employed.
One of the bitter and angry struggles Rowling had with Warner Brothers when they were in the early stages of developing the first film was her unbudging insistance that not one American actor was to be cast in any of the roles, most especially not the children's roles. That's because British people have for decades now seen so very many of their most beloved stories hijacked by American film studios and Americanized ("Winnie the Pooh" is a classic example. And look at Elijah Wood playing Frodo, and Sean Astin playing Sam). Their culture is being siphoned away from them via American cinema -- robbed from them. She wanted only British children playing those British roles for the sake of the millions of British children who would be greatly encouraged to see one of their own up on the screen for a change. In her mind, this story firmly belongs to the cultural identy of Britain and needs to stay there, even in its film versions.
Christians are focusing on the wrong issue here in the HP series of books and movies. They're up in arms over the magic and witchcraft. But they're overlooking the respect toward others and the dignity toward self and the reverence of tradition that the children in those stories exhibit.
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I'm forever amused that magic falls under the label 'witchcraft' and looked upon as something sinister and evil by the Christian faith.
Bloody hell, I've yet to see magic as profound and HUGE as the parting of the Red Sea.
Bloody hell, I've yet to see magic as profound and HUGE as the parting of the Red Sea.
I've yet to see magic of any kind whatsoever, apart from the everyday kind like the sun coming up and stuff like that, for which there are a number of other possible explanations...
not sure about a lot of this. I agree with the last paragraph, but the rest? Most British Children never went to Boarding School, Britain between the Wars was a pretty difficult place - the Depression was bad here too, btw. Old suitcases?
Old cars? There is a Ford Anglia in HP and that is about it.
Steam trains - absolutely
Pens - well yeas...
Witchcraft - remember we were always far less hung up on this than Americans were generally - still goes on, mind.
Ancient traditions - yep
castles - check
respect for the past - yep
respect for elders - check
decorum - we still queue well, you know, but point taken, although most of the behaviour of the kids in HP is pretty undecorous
wizards - never had any of those for real
dragons - as above, although the welsh probably still think theirs was real... (bless)
uniforms - most british schoolkids wear uniform still
Tolkien did this better in creating his myth for Britian... did it pretty well, I think. I do not think HP will last as well, somehow.
I wonder how those Christians who railed at HP feel now he has been revealed as a Christ-like figure in the last book... your thoughts on this would be gratefully recieved.
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Of course it is just fiction but for people who see magic as coming from the devil it is no more acceptable than a child hero who is a gifted drug dealer. The thing is seen as inherently evil.
This reminds me of a fanfic called something like "Harry Potter meets the King of Kings". In it, Harry was rescued by a stranger who told him about Jesus (first time Harry had been exposed to Christianity, by the way), and Harry promptly repented of his witchcraft and his evil ways. And then, ladies and gentlemen, a miracle occurred. The lightning bolt on his forehead changed into a cross.
I also read one where Vernon Dursley and all his family become born-again Christians and ask Harry to forgive them for treating him so badly. Harry is so moved by this change in their character that he inquires into what caused it, and you can guess how that fic ends.
There's another one where Lucius Malfoy murders a young woman whose last act before dying is to give him her bible and ask him to read it. So he does, becomes a Christian and stops his practices of wife-beating, child-beating and Voldemort-obeying. This last does not please Voldemort, so he murders Lucius. But Lucius has left Draco the bible, so Draco reads it, rinse and repeat.
I love HP conversion fics.
I also read one where Vernon Dursley and all his family become born-again Christians and ask Harry to forgive them for treating him so badly. Harry is so moved by this change in their character that he inquires into what caused it, and you can guess how that fic ends.
There's another one where Lucius Malfoy murders a young woman whose last act before dying is to give him her bible and ask him to read it. So he does, becomes a Christian and stops his practices of wife-beating, child-beating and Voldemort-obeying. This last does not please Voldemort, so he murders Lucius. But Lucius has left Draco the bible, so Draco reads it, rinse and repeat.
I love HP conversion fics.
Those are not quite as bad as the Snape/Malfoy slash...but they still leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Personally, I think the morals that are pushed in the Harry Potter books are good and great and very Christian. And if more people followed Christian morals, the world would be a better place.
And that's coming from an Atheist, folks.
Personally, I think the morals that are pushed in the Harry Potter books are good and great and very Christian. And if more people followed Christian morals, the world would be a better place.
And that's coming from an Atheist, folks.
There was also a fic where Snape becomes a born-again Christian and the Death Eaters crucify him. Literally. But that does make me wonder if there are any fics where Hermione converts. Or any LotR conversion fics, for that matter.
I've also read some much less disturbing Hermione/Ginny fics...
Actually, this is kind of amusing, because I've been talking with Tamora Perice, who also writes popular YA novels with multiple gods, people with magic and so on. And no one seems to complain about those! An entire series of hers was about these robots that are run off the souls of murdured children, but I don't see any complaints.
Why I bring that up is because a good 1/5th of her talk today was her finding some of the "fanfic" about hers. Her facial expression was priceless. I can only repeat the words:
"And I opened the link. I read the whole thing, and...no! Just...no! I mean...George and Jonathan? No! I ran and told Dan (her husband) and he just shrugged and said 'It's the internet, honey.'"
So this adds to my conclusion that the Internet is for horny psychopathic writers. That and Absolute Write.
Actually, this is kind of amusing, because I've been talking with Tamora Perice, who also writes popular YA novels with multiple gods, people with magic and so on. And no one seems to complain about those! An entire series of hers was about these robots that are run off the souls of murdured children, but I don't see any complaints.
Why I bring that up is because a good 1/5th of her talk today was her finding some of the "fanfic" about hers. Her facial expression was priceless. I can only repeat the words:
"And I opened the link. I read the whole thing, and...no! Just...no! I mean...George and Jonathan? No! I ran and told Dan (her husband) and he just shrugged and said 'It's the internet, honey.'"
So this adds to my conclusion that the Internet is for horny psychopathic writers. That and Absolute Write.
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