Spelling of a foreign word

SecretScribe · Jun 29, 2007

Hi there

My novel is set in South Africa and over there people say Ya not Yeah. The problem is that you spell it 'ja'. Should I use the correct spelling, i.e. 'ja', or should I use 'ya' so that it is easier for non-SA readers to get the pronunciation?

Sophia · Jun 29, 2007

I think that when you write a word in a language other than English (or whatever your main writing language is) you italicise it. So you would write it as "Ja". Whenever I see words like this, I recognise that it is a foreign word. It doesn't matter if I am not 100% clear on how to pronounce it, as the pronunciation isn't usually story-relevant, just the 'flavour' of the speech.

I think, though, that this is something the editor would have the final say on.

Edited to add - I realised I didn't actually answer your question. I think you should use the "ja" spelling to convey the flavour of the character's speech. But it's just a personal preference on my part. Second edit: If I saw "ya", it would initially make me think that the character was putting on an upper-class English accent. If it continued throughout the text, I would probably get a bit put off by the quirkiness of it. Writing it as "ja" gets around all that, for me.

Stijn Hommes · Jun 29, 2007

I'd use the original spelling. If you don't you lose the flavor you attempt to convey, because "Ya" isn't all that uncommon a phrase in English. If you really think it's worth explaining the prononciation, especially if you use more such phrases, you can have an explanatory list in the back of the book, or just a footnote on its first occurance.

Personally, I don't see how the reader could get confused. Aren't they pronounced the same to begin with?

SecretScribe · Jun 29, 2007

Hi there Stijn

In your country it would be - but in the UK or US I think the pronunciation would be different.

reenkam · Jun 29, 2007

in the US ja could be pronounced with a j like in judge or like an h for "ja" (that'd be a spanish pronuciation) or like a y like "ya"

but, yeah, I just put foreign words as they're spelled in the actual language and in italics.

JoNightshade · Jun 29, 2007

I work with a couple of German girls who say "ja" cooonstantly. It's quite funny and even though someone who didn't "know" might think they were saying "yah" or "yeah," it's quite clear from their pronunciation that it's "ja." I dunno how to explain the subtle difference. But I would definitely go with ja. Italicizing it is good.

Will Lavender · Jun 29, 2007

If it's a major part of the text, I'd omit the italics. If you only see it a few times, however, I would italicize.

No need to italicize something that appears frequently. It's why some writers don't use apostrophes in their contractions.

job · Jun 29, 2007

Use the foreign word. Spell it correctly.

Do not worry about the reader mentally mispronouncing it.

The style manual of your publisher will determine whether a foreign word is Italicized or not. Generally this depends upon whether the word appears in English language dictionary. Your copyeditor will let you know the house style for this word.

If you want it Italicized in the work or think it will be, you can Italicize the word in your manuscript or underline it. Your choice.

Geist · Jun 29, 2007

SecretScribe said:
Hi there

My novel is set in South Africa and over there people say Ya not Yeah. The problem is that you spell it 'ja'. Should I use the correct spelling, i.e. 'ja', or should I use 'ya' so that it is easier for non-SA readers to get the pronunciation?

I use a lot of foreign language in my book, German, to be exact. The proper way to do it is like this:

Dummes kleines Madchen (Silly little girl), don't you know God doesn't listen to prayers from ghosts?

In your case, Ja is so commonly used that you don't need to explain it, but you should probably underline or italicise it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

Ed

Shady Lane · Jun 29, 2007

I've got a random Russian word in my ms. You think you're doing just fine with the Arabic letters, and then BAM--Russian. It's shocking.

Danger Jane · Jun 29, 2007

I'd say go with ja. If you're really concerned about people mispronouncing it, maybe you include an author's note about the local slang you've incorporated.

fjeastman · Jun 29, 2007

My current WIP I'm playing with a few non-English words. I italicize them and don't give any clue to their meaning.

It's a 1st person story and the MC has no idea what they mean, either.

--fje

swvaughn · Jun 29, 2007

Geist said:
I use a lot of foreign language in my book, German, to be exact. The proper way to do it is like this:

Dummes kleines Madchen (Silly little girl), don't you know God doesn't listen to prayers from ghosts?

In your case, Ja is so commonly used that you don't need to explain it, but you should probably underline or italicise it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

Ed

I think this has been debated before. Memory's a bit fuzzy, though, and I could be remembering something that didn't actually happen...

Anyhoodles.

Some say to put the translation in parenthesis after the foreign phrase; others (I'm in this camp) say the reader should be able to infer what it means from surrounding text, and if they can't, leave it out.

Ja is a fairly common foreign expression; it means the same in German and South African, and many English speakers recognize it. It's also fairly simple to figure out that it's an affirmation when it's used in context.

For more complicated phrases, it's much less jarring to leave out the translation (IMO) -- Barry Eisler has some great techniques for revealing or hinting at the occasional Japanese he drops into his novels. It's a bit trickier to make sure the general sentiment comes across without directly translating in the text, but totally worth it.

Ziljon · Jun 29, 2007

JoNightshade said:
I work with a couple of German girls who say "ja" cooonstantly.

...I bet they do, Jo!

Geist · Jun 30, 2007

swvaughn said:
others (I'm in this camp) say the reader should be able to infer what it means from surrounding text, and if they can't, leave it out

JoNightshade said:

I work with a couple of German girls who say "ja" cooonstantly.

Click to expand...

You must have an enormous Arbeitsplatz.(ahem...so much for leaving out the translation tags and letting the context indicate the meaning. My regards to Mel Brooks.)

swvaughn · Jun 30, 2007

Geist said:
You must have an enormous Arbeitsplatz.(ahem...so much for leaving out the translation tags and letting the context indicate the meaning. My regards to Mel Brooks.)

This actually was kind of my point. If you don't put in the direct translation, the person to whom this kind of thing is being addressed (in your writing -- presumably someone who also understands the language) might respond with a good-natured comment, as they would know you're referring to an office environment. And the reader might infer your characters were having a friendly conversation.

Or, this could go the other way, depending on the surrounding text, and the character stating that whoever he/she is addressing must have an enormous Arbeitsplatz could infer, through his/her POV, that he/she is making the other character believe they're being insulted, when they're actually just making pleasant conversation. If you write it well, the reader could find this amusing even without knowing exactly what the word means.

But hey, ii ja nai betsu ni. I can take a joke. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Danger Jane · Jun 30, 2007

Oh, my south african friend says use ja.

JoNightshade · Jun 30, 2007

Geist said:
swvaughn said:

You must have an enormous Arbeitsplatz.(ahem...so much for leaving out the translation tags and letting the context indicate the meaning. My regards to Mel Brooks.)

Click to expand...

Actually, no! We have a very small "arbeitsplatz." It's just that we hired the one girl and she was good, and she had a friend and we thought, why not?

javili · Jun 30, 2007

When I write for the gringo market, I often spell spanish words wrong in order to help them read the piece. I don't want people not to understand, but I don't like putting translations in parenthesis or all of these clumsy devices.

So instead of de lujo I would use de luxo so they will read it as "deluxe" (actually x and j can be the same sound in Spanish... Mexico is pronounced as if it were Mejico,)

I think this give a Spanish flavor without stumbling the reader.

swvaughn · Jun 30, 2007

JoNightshade said:
Actually, no! We have a very small "arbeitsplatz." It's just that we hired the one girl and she was good, and she had a friend and we thought, why not?

Ack! The quotes, they lie!

Jo, I didn't accuse you of an enormous arbietsplatz. Honest! I just borrowed Ed's phrase to illustrate a point... which I fear might have been lost in translation. :roll:

I kill myself sometimes. And yet, I remain alive. Go figure.

I have a writing buddy with a German MC in his series. He uses ja quite a bit, and I understood before I knew what the word literally meant. So it's all good, ja?

job · Jun 30, 2007

>>> The proper way to do it is like this:
Dummes kleines Madchen (Silly little girl), don't you know God doesn't listen to prayers from ghosts?<<<

I wouldn't say it's the 'proper' way to do it. This sort of straight, interpolated translation in brackets is so rare I'm having trouble recalling an instance of it.

More common is using foreign phrases carefully and rarely -- just enough to give flavor to the character's speech -- and chosing spots where the meaning will be obvious from context. If the meaning isn't obvious, you work a definition into the surroundings.

Something along the lines of --

Dummes kleines Madchen, don't you know God doesn't listen to prayers from ghosts?
But I was not a stupid little girl, whatever he called me. Nor a ghost, exactly.

javili · Jul 9, 2007

That is not "Proper" way to do it. It's is contrived and the easiest, clumsiest way to introduce foreing words.

The italic solution by job is a much better way.

job · Jul 10, 2007

javili said:
That is not "Proper" way to do it. It's is contrived and the easiest, clumsiest way to introduce foreing words.

The italic solution by job is a much better way.

And, in the final analysis, the publishing house will probably stongly suggest it be done according to the 15th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style. (i.e. Italics for everything not in Websters.)

Whether the editor falls in love with the parenthesis and translation will depend upon the editor. I've seen footnotes in fiction.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 11, 2007

Chicago

job said:
And, in the final analysis, the publishing house will probably stongly suggest it be done according to the 15th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style. (i.e. Italics for everything not in Websters.)

Whether the editor falls in love with the parenthesis and translation will depend upon the editor. I've seen footnotes in fiction.

Thankfully, none of the publishers I write for follow this silly rule. I hate Chicago, and, thank God, more and more editors are throwing away the latest editions.

maestrowork · Jul 11, 2007

I would use the actual word. But if you're worried the readers will pronounce it wrong, slip in some kind of clue. Dialogue, short exposition or whatever.

"His name is Jesus," Mark said, "but here, it's pronounced as yey-su."

Jack nodded.

Spelling of a foreign word

SecretScribe

Sophia

Stijn Hommes

Know what you write...

SecretScribe

reenkam

aka cupcake

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Geist

Shady Lane

my name is hannah

Danger Jane

fjeastman

swvaughn

adrift

Ziljon

Tortilla di Patate

Geist

swvaughn

adrift

Danger Jane

JoNightshade

has finally arrived

javili

swvaughn

adrift

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

javili

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Jamesaritchie

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray