Question about Plot Points

warning: i'm not a professional, so my comments may or may not help you.

i've never read Syd's book, but from what i've read about him he was never a writer, but a reader. he places much emphasis on page requirements and a rigid plot structure. don't worry about confining yourself to a formula.

by the way, i don't think a screenplay with five central charcters will work particularly well, especially by a beginner.

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you're a taking a, as Andrew Horton would call it, "carnivalesque" approach, where more emphasis is on character development than plot.

you can have 5 different characters with seperate goals, but you need to weave their individual stories. i think what you're trying to get at is subplots. but out of the five characters, there must be a central one whose decisions and actions dictate the direction of the overall story.

I don't know...I think being a beginner is a great time to experiment with what works and what doesn't.

I like to take a hands on approach to writing, going from the gut, then going back and tweaking things as I learn more craft and such. This way my creativity won't get stifled. Other's like to learn everything up front, then start writing.

So I'd suggest doing what feels right to you. After it's written, you can decide if it was successful or not. I'm a complete beginner, but I now officially have one completed draft of a screenplay under my belt.

I had 4 characters that I handled in a similar way. One was definitely the main, but the others were just as important and got equal screen time.

So now I'm rambling. Hope it helped some at least.

Nicole

I haven't read Field. What does he say these two plot points are?

I think you can easily have multi-character scripts, I don't think it depends on being a newbie or not. Some people work better with multi-character (Altman, Paul Thomas Anderson). And I'd argue that writing one single developed character arc over 2 hours is actually harder. I usually write scripts with 2 main characters because I think one main character can actually be really hard.

Nonetheless, if all 5 of your characters are essentially main characters with their own character arcs and each undergoes a well developed change in the script then I think you'll end up hitting whatever plot points you're trying to hit automatically by writing them that way.

The multiple characters

ARE indeed do-able, and acceptable.
What Krano says about making the stories and arcs come together is VERY true though.

Crash (to use one of Plot's examples) takes four or five seemingly seperate stories and eventually twines them ALL together. Each of the characters comes into contact or alters all of the others lives in some way thus making ONE story.

WARNING
Just don't let the stories run away with your script.
Don't let it get bloated. You'll have to keep it streamlined and organized.

Regarding Plot Points.
I haven't read Field either but I've heard Plot Points mentioned in several different ways.
When I think of Plot points I think of important events that change the course of the story and move it forward. I think EVERY major scene ends on a Plot Point.
So, I don't believe it's just 2.

I think there are 3 MAJOR Plot points and then many other minor ones.

The first MAJOR one is where the Protag is forced to make his/her big choice and commit to life changing events. END OF ACT 1.
The next Major point would be where the Protag STARTS the final face off with the antag. END OF ACT 2, BEGINNING OF CLIMAX.
And the final one would be where the Protag actually achieves the goal.
END OF ACT 3, and BEGINNING of WRAP UP.

Now, in between those major points is EVERYTHING else that happens.
They can be minor or fairly significant beats.
Your script doesn't move from A to P to Z, it REALLY moves from
A to C, to I, J,K,L, O,P, ......... Z.


SO, try to work out where each of your characters are going to END UP.
THEN work backwards through the steps to get him/her there.
THOSE steps or events will be your Plot Points.
Next you create the scenes that willl support those events.

(and don't be afraid to brainstorm. You don't have to have things set in stone right now. Play with it until you get something you really like.)

Plot point
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In television and film, a plot point is a significant event within a plot that digs into the action and spins it around in another direction.

Noted screenwriting teacher Syd Field teaches that the 'ideal' movie plot has the first plot point occurring around the 30th minute of the film, then the second one around the 90th minute.

I believe there is also a theory of screenwriting that your expectations should be reversed at the end of every scene. But I suppose here we are referring to major reversals.

Anyway, semi-related, an article in the Guardian about burning McKee's Story: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/film/2007/06/end_of_story.html

i take back what i said about how beginners shouldn't attempt multi-story scripts. my first script has several subplots in it (smacks head).

i think i got hung up your language, sadie. i think a film with five pure central characters would be incredibly disjointed, not a film with five different subplots. when i hear 5 central characters, my mind jumps to five completely different plots and five different themes.

slightly off topic: is it wrong that i don't care for the movie Crash? everyone i know who has seen it tells me how much they loved it. i can appreciate the message, but from a writer's viewpoint, certain parts of the film felt contrived. i think Hagis (someone check spelling) decided on a theme first and then wrote the stories instead letting the theme derive itself, which leaves an inorganic taste in my mouth.

anyone else feel the same way?

Funny *****spoiler, major spoiler ahead*****

really funny Zep.

And what in the world did we do before Wiki?
Thanks Bison.

Here is my advice to the OP, Sadie.
Find the script for one of the ensemble films that Plot listed and read the script. THEN take a yellow highlighter and mark ALL the moments in that script that match Bison's definition.

Uh, let's take Crash because I've seen that one.
Think about it carefully.
Study the moments. You won't be marking EVERY little sip of coffee or stroll through the park BUT MOMENTS THAT SHIFT THE STORY.
(for example, in Crash when the two black teenagers steal the white couple's car, or when the DA's wife falls down the stairs.)

Next get a green highlighter or a red pen and mark the two or three MAJOR points. These are the moments where the story LEAPS forward. Like, uh, OH I can't rememember the very first one (what some would call the Inciting Incident) but a big one would be when the Hindu store owner goes to shoot the locksmith, hits the Mexican daughter instead.
And another would be when the young black teenager is killed.

NOW, with those clearly marked, read the script again and consider how the writer put all the scenes and events together to move from one point to the other.

Hope that helps.
If not, let me know and I'll pull some more half baked advice out of my backside.

I liked Crash.

I think I would have to watch it a second time to judge it purely as a film and not a message.

Sadly in our day I don't think anything that happened in the film couldn't or more correctly DOESN'T happen in real life.
So, no, I wouldn't say it was contrived.
Just we as busy human beings don't ever see the connections.

Now that I'm thinking about it though Crash DIDN'T have five main characters. Don Cheadle was the main character and all the other stories were SPOKES of his story.
Remember, we started with him, and him finding the body, and then we go back and see how it all happened and how all those lives connected to the starting point......with HIM.

BUT, each character did have their subplot and it SEEMED like different stories until the climax.

To answer the original question.
YES you make plot points for each character.
It's just that some of those plot points MUST crash into each other.
(sorry, I just had to say it.)

for this problem what you need is Dan Decker's book, Anatomy of a Screenplay. it breaks down how the goals and motivations of each major and supporting character should intertwine and how what they do in act one affects everything in act two and three. check it out!

krano said:

slightly off topic: is it wrong that i don't care for the movie Crash? everyone i know who has seen it tells me how much they loved it. i can appreciate the message, but from a writer's viewpoint, certain parts of the film felt contrived. i think Hagis (someone check spelling) decided on a theme first and then wrote the stories instead letting the theme derive itself, which leaves an inorganic taste in my mouth.

anyone else feel the same way?

Click to expand...

I will continue to be off topic with you: Only certain parts feel contrived? Anyway, you're not alone. Crash is a bad 'very special episode' of an after school special.

Usual dsclamer applied.

Plot points are really difficult to define because a plot point for a horror movie wouldn't work for a coming-of-age drama.

I define plot points as the escalation of the action not the change of direction.

For a four character movie plot points more readily reveal themselves as each character can be an antag for another or each character can perform some act that affects the others.

Also, when I think of characters, I think what would be the juxtaposed personality for the character.

If the character is shy, introduce a wild character

If the character had a bad childhood, introduce a criminal personality with a similar story.

I'm working on an ensemble like that now. It's four characters dealing with issues at work and play.

I totally disagree with Baron.

Rising action is just that, rising action.
You can increase the pacing and sense of action WITHOUT actually taking the story ANYWHERE.
(see The Island for a good example of this.)

Plot points are moments in which the story advances or takes a twist.