Redondilla Workshop

THE REDONDILLA
INTRODUCTION -

Hello all,
I chose the "Redondilla" to talk about. There are rules, but the only hard and fast ones still followed that I can find is an adherence to an eight syllable line and four line stanza.

I am in no way an expert on this form. As with most foreign languages, I am quite sure someone who is fluent in Spanish could speak far better than I to the subtleties needed in taking one form, created in a specific language, and applying it to the English language. Please consider my efforts no more than an ice breaker in hopes of starting discussion and interest in a particular form.

THE LAY OF THE LAND -

This workshop will attempt to include at least enough; history, explanation of form, modern day attitudes, and examples, to allow and encourage participation and spark discussion.

From the historical information a set of rules will be established, merely for the purposes of this workshop, to keep things on an even keel and hopefully avoid too many off-topic tangents of style and freedom of expression etc. Beyond this workshop of course we are all free to experiment and alter as we desire. These rules of form are simply to keep things flowing in here.

There are posts that follow, concerning the history of the form and it's influence. Modern day attitudes. Philosophical discussion and questions posed. And, a few exercises offered to produce your own one to three stanza poems using this form and the theme or themes offered (to keep things simple for critiquing and discussion) for any interested in participating.

These exercise poems will be critiqued by all who participate based upon the form established, so if you simply can’t forego your freedoms of choice and expression for the purposes of this workshop exercise, expect to hear about it in the critiques.

So let‘s get started and please, join in and read the following posts and let’s have some fun exploring the Redondilla.

HISTORICALLY -

The Redondilla is of Spanish origin and is a four line poem with eight syllables per line. The proper rhyme scheme of the Redondilla is abba.

Personally, I pronounce it Ray-don-DEE-ya, pardon me for my ignorance if that is incorrect.

One site I looked up stated "Redondilla (Eng. Roundelay)". This may be correct, but can be confusing as there are also French forms called Roundelet, and Rondel, and an English form called Rondel. All of which have their own differences.

A little background from:
www.fullbooks.com/The-History-of-the-Reign-of-Ferdinand-and4.html

"...There is considerable resemblance between the early Spanish ballad and the
British. The latter affords more situations of pathos and deep tenderness,
particularly those of suffering, uncomplaining love, a favorite theme with
old English poets of every description. [10] We do not find, either, in
the ballads of the Peninsula, the wild, romantic adventures of the roving
outlaw, of the Robin Hood genus, which enter so largely into English
minstrelsy. The former [Spanish ballads] are in general of a more sustained and chivalrous character, less gloomy, and although fierce not so ferocious, nor so
decidedly tragical in their aspect, as the latter. The ballads of the Cid,
however, have many points in common with the border poetry; the same free
and cordial manner, the same love of military exploit, relieved by a
certain tone of generous gallantry, and accompanied by a strong expression
of national feeling.

The resemblance between the minstrelsy of the two countries vanishes,
however, as we approach the Moorish ballads. The Moorish wars had always
afforded abundant themes of interest for the Castilian muse; but it was
not till the fall of the capital, that the very fountains of song were
broken up, and those beautiful ballads were produced, which seem like the
echoes of departed glory, lingering round the ruins of Granada.
Incompetent as these pieces may be as historical records, they are
doubtless sufficiently true to manners. [11] They present a most
remarkable combination, of not merely the exterior form, but the noble
spirit of European chivalry, with the gorgeousness and effeminate luxury
of the east. They are brief, seizing single situations of the highest
poetic interest, and striking the eye of the reader with a brilliancy of
execution, so artless in appearance withal as to seem rather the effect of
accident than study. We are transported to the gay seat of Moorish power,
and witness the animating bustle, its pomp and its revelry, prolonged to
the last hour of its existence. The bull-fight of the Vivarrambla, the
graceful tilt of reeds, the amorous knights with their quaint significant
devices, the dark Zegris, or Gomeres, and the royal, self-devoted
Abencerrages, the Moorish maiden radiant at the tourney, the moonlight
serenade, the stolen interview, where the lover gives vent to all the
intoxication of passion in the burning language of Arabian metaphor and
hyperbole, [12]--these, and a thousand similar scenes, are brought before
the eye, by a succession of rapid and animated touches, like the lights
and shadows of a landscape. The light trochaic structure of the
_redondilla_ [13], as the Spanish ballad measure is called, rolling
on its graceful, negligent _asonante_, [14] whose continued repetition
seems by its monotonous melody to prolong the note of feeling originally
struck, is admirably suited by its flexibility to the most varied and
opposite expression; a circumstance which has recommended it as the
ordinary measure of dramatic dialogue.
[13] The _redondilla_ may be considered as the basis of Spanish
versification. It is of great antiquity, and compositions in it are still
extant, as old as the time of the infante Don Manuel, at the close of the
thirteenth century. (See Cancionero General, fol. 207.) The redondilla
admits of great variety; but in the romances it is most frequently found
to consist of eight syllables, the last foot, and some or all of the
preceding, as the case may be, being trochees."

Click to expand...

NOTE: For those interested and in need of knowing, a "Trochee" or "Trochaic Foot" is a metrical foot of two syllables the first being long or accented, and the second short, or unaccented, as in FA-ther, SYS-tem, WEL-come, etc.

I encourage you to click on the link for the above article, scroll down to where it says,

"CHAPTER XX.
CASTILIAN LITERATURE.--ROMANCES OF CHIVALRY.--LYRICAL POETRY.-THE DRAMA."

and read the complete chapter. It will give you a fuller sense of the Redondilla as an outlet for national pride, and an undying growth largely from "the people" of the land. I get a feeling it (romance/ballad) was looked upon as a "lower form" of writing, but gained such popularity with the people as to become what one might call the voice of a nation, as well as spread internationally to be adopted and used by other lands who could relate to it's thematic nature of struggle, chivalry, heroism, etc.

Information Gathered from:

http://www.poetryrenewal.com/forms/002/214.shtml

http://pages.prodigy.net/sol.magazine/pl01form.htm#redond

MODERN DAY ATTITUDES -

The modern Redondilla is often a single stanza, but multiple stanza poems are still to be found. Most of the samples in the link below, you may agree or not, are not very good in my opinion, but then again, neither are my examples. Some are quite good though, so I encourage you to read a many as you can. Most, including one of my examples (in the following post), really ignores the "ballad" nature of the original. There is no folk-lore or legend telling to today's samples. Well, I should qualify that by limiting it to today's "English" samples.

The rhyme scheme of abab is often called a Redondilla, but was actually known as a "Serventesio". Despite the mix-up I think either rhyme scheme has become acceptable if not technically correct, and of course like most ancient forms, the rules today depend largely on who you read and choose to go by, a rhyme scheme of abcb is also considered acceptable by some.

I cannot prove it but I have my suspicions that the Limerick might owe it’s eventual birth to an altered form of the Redondilla. While fairly loose in form a great many Limericks fall into the 8 8 6 6 8 syllable pattern, and many are of legendary or heroic figure even when cast in a bawdy kind of light. The most famous I know, off the top of my head is:

“There once was a hermit named Dave
Who kept a dead whore in his cave
Though he kept her on ice
She just didn't smell nice
But think of the money he saved”

I don’t think I stretch too far to see the roots of a Redondilla here. And, this opinion is somewhat supported by one of the poems in the examples link that speaks to the Redondilla vs. Limerick impression.

It (the Limerick) is short and to the point. It covers a single, simple topic. It references (what has become) a legend . And it closely resembles the syllabic pattern. Any syllable and line variations are easily attributable to years of form alterations, the Limerick as stated, is very loose in form now as most poetry is, but it’s not hard to see a 5 line, syllabic, metered, poem, stemming from a 4 line, syllabic, metered poem popular for centuries before the Limerick was created, (1820 is the earliest known, and that was before the name “Limerick” was applied.) And really, is a rhyme pattern of aabba, that different from abba? Drop the first line, make the syllabic changes as such:

“Dave kept a dead whore in his cave.
Though he kept her cool on some ice,
She just did not smell very nice,
But think of the money he saved.”

And viola! A Redondilla.

Many Modern Samples:

http://www.akawordsmith.com/clwpoems/f19.shtml

LANGUAGE DIFFICULTIES -

There is an assonance in the original Spanish, (usually the final three vowels) that is not found in English, nor is it often possible. Spanish, as other “romantic” languages, make it possible to usually assonate the final two or three vowels, something that would be very difficult in English.

Problems such as this have been and will always be what makes it difficult, in my opinion, to write poetry of a foreign language form in English and retain the many subtleties inherent in the original, much the same as one discovers when writing Haiku in English.

What I mean is, if a form is created in a language that contains many words with “-iello”, “-agio”, or “-entia” etc. type endings, how are poets to accomplish the same quality, when the only door left open to them is repetition of the same word. One might be able to find two vowel rhymes such as gather, blather, slather, gladder, bladder, sadder, etc. but, it becomes extremely difficult when trying for three vowel rhymes. Unless YOU want to spend time trying to find words like, gravitate and navigate, agitate, magistrate, etc. that fit what your trying to express. Now, consider sticking to form and finding rhymes that offer three vowel assonance and fit with trochee meter. I don’t even want to think about it.

No. I think it becomes necessary to simply take from the form what we can, and make it our own. I'm not saying it's impossible. I am far too inexperienced to make such claims. I just think it's nigh to impossible to find three vowel ending rhymes that offer a final trochee foot, and gracefully, artfully, retain the thrust of what one is trying to express. We've all experienced having to use a word we really didn't care for or one that just isn't soulful enough. Or, perhaps even gone as far as changing the entire poem for the lack of a perfect word. And, we even revert to a foreign word sometimes to get the “fit” we desire.

My personal opinion is that this is a large part of what led to the unpopularity of rhymed poetry and the great love of free verse and blank verse in the first place. The English language is more precise in some ways, but that benefit comes at a price. While English words may tend to be less obscure than say a Japanese or Chinese character that might have as many as six or seven English equivalents, or a romance language word that might have three or more; it bears with it a limiting of artistic rhyming choice.

Also, I suppose we should consider boredom, laziness, and difficulty with the metrical foot as reason or excuse for “freedom”, alteration of form, and/or complete lack of interest in rigid structures of the past.

Enough navel gazing.

OK, TIME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP -

While I have found no definitive proof, the general feeling I get is that the trochaic requirements are not strictly adhered to in modern Redondilla of the English variety. At the most, the requirement is for the final foot of each line to be trochaic, though samples do not show strict adherence to that either. However, a full trochaic line would certainly not be wrong by any means. The samples I found seem to follow nothing but the abba rhyme scheme and the eight syllable requirements.

Now, and please be kind, I offer here are a couple of my examples. Both I feel capture the ballad, or Minstrel quality of the Redondilla. At least I can see them being sung by a Minstrel:

This first one is more in line with what the article noted as the British theme; a more tragic, lost love kind of thing, not generally associated with the original Spanish themes. Still Minstrel in quality, just not legend, heroic, or folklorish in nature.

A Boy’s First Love

She came into my room that night
And lifted me to heights unknown.
With passion borne of longing grown
In wispy dreams of unclear sight.

Then one day came - she said goodbye,
And I was left to weep alone,
As in my heart she tied a stone.
I feel no shame as now I cry.

I dare not wait for her return
Nor hope that she still remember,
How in my soul she stoked the ember
Of love that endlessly will burn.

This song I sing from hearts deep ache
As I yearn for my lover‘s kiss,
Perchance to die in love’s sweet bliss -
Too much to ask my heart to take.

She taught me things no boy should know
And changed my life in many ways.
And as she died so dies the blaze
Within my heart she left to glow.

This second, though humorous, is more in line with the legend themed of the original Spanish. Along the lines of a “Don Quixote-esque” nature.

Hop-Along Catastrophe

The journey long, the trail dusty,
Out west he planned to stake his claim.
Seeking riches and greater fame,
Trouble was, his gun was rusty.

Citified boy could barely ride
The golden steed he sat upon,
As off he ran to west just won -
Got down the block, fell off and died.

SUMMARY -

So, what do we have?
An original Spanish form requiring four lines of eight syllables with assonant rhyming of the last three syllables, ballad in theme, and used in romantic dialog like that of Cervantes. Well, that is what we had.

We of the English prison have a bastardized 4 line 8 syllable poem, with varying rhyming scheme, no strict adherence to trochaic meter, incorporating any theme or topic one chooses with no thought given to the ballad nature of the original.

A poem that often comes off resembling a Haiku or Limerick (especially in such feeble hands as mine) that is also easy and fun to play with, but because of such ease, often misses or outright ignores the beauty, pride and meaning inherent in the original as well as the Minstrel quality.

PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSION -

I understand and appreciate the freedom needed in the English language to accomplish works in forms of other languages but:

Can or should it still be called a Redondilla?
Does it matter?
Out of respect for the original and the originator, should all variations of form be given a new name?
Is it more respectful to give credit to the original by calling it by the same form name, though the form is altered?
What constitutes form? Is any eight syllable quatrain a Redondilla?
Is any fourteen line poem a Sonnet?
Do the indentations and stanza breaks have anything to do with the form?
Is something still a villanelle as long as the lines repeat?

These are of course philosophical questions a best. Each person will have their own opinions and none of them will govern the future of poetry. My only vague point I guess is that had I been the creator of a form such as the Redondilla, or one of the other foreign language forms, I think I would feel it a slap in the face to view other's attempts that fall so short or change completely what I had originally created, and still have those attempts called by the same name.

If you think of poetry like a pie, then, in the pie family you can have a Redondilla, which, like a rhubarb pie let's say, will always have certain ingredients in certain proportions made in a certain way. Or, you can play with the ingredient amounts or change the actual ingredients and have something that is either a very poor attempt, or something entirely different.

Continuing the pie analogy if you'll bear with me; if you take an original form and change the rhyme scheme, the assonance requirement, ignore the ballad aspect, what you wind up with is more inline with a shepherds pie than a rhubarb, and while having it’s roots perhaps in the pie family, it’s no more a rhubarb pie than yogurt is ice cream.

I thought it would be interesting to discuss the questions above. And of course anything having to do with the Redondilla you might wish to.

LET'S GET BUSY,
THE FIRST EXERCISE -

Now, for the purposes of this workshop, concerning the requirements of a Redondilla, the form will be:

1. A four line, eight syllable stanza

2. An abba rhyme scheme (for now, we‘ll get to others in sequence)

3. Have a ballad nature to it, (actually the theme will be set in each exercise)

4. Trochaic lines or ending foot will be optional. (but you are encouraged to try)

5. Simple and to the point but be as artful and elegant as you desire.

6. These are story telling poems and as such should be clear and understandable by the masses, not esoteric or mysterious.

The first exercise is to write a poem of at least one, but no more than three stanzas, dealing with any aspect of the legend of Don Quixote. It can be serious, heroic, or humorous in nature but the theme will be something having to do with his legend.

The deadline for posting to this first exercise will be Tuesday, June 26.

On Wednesday the 26th, we will begin critique and discussion of posted poems and then on the following Monday a new exercise will be posted. I think 4 or 5 days should be enough for short poems of a stanza or two. If this proves too difficult adjustments can be made in future exercises.

I’ll go first :

Don Quixote

Don Quixote, the legend told,
Was Knight-errant on a great quest.
But really he wasn’t the best
At serving in the ranks of old.

Have you heard of Don Quixote?
Of sound mind, they said he was not.
Delusions he suffered a lot.
Could it have been the peyote?

Who’s next? And please be careful not to let my humor or lack of beauty influence or bring down your level of effort. I expect first rate stuff from you all - I’ve seen your work.

Oh, just to let you know...

I am all over the forum and other places as well. I will make a point to be online and in the workshop from at least 6PM to 8PM eastern USA time everynight. I'll probably be there more, but those will be definite hours you can count on getting a quick response if needed. Also, feel free to PM me if needed.

Thanks,
Jeff

I'm here now if anybody should have any questions. If not, just read the material, I know it's a lot to take in.

I look forward to seeing your poems. Remember the dealine is Tuesday and thanks for taking part!

I'm liking these! We can go over each one in turn starting tomorrow, that would be Tuesday here in the States in case anyone is already in tomorrow where you are.

Remember we're all going to critique so that all can learn. I am going to try and I want all of you to try and point out any flow problems, trochee meter ( is it present or not). Word choice and imagery issues. Could it be more beautiful, deep, picturesque and what would get it that way.

I am assuming this workshop idea is to go a little beyond the normal criting and actually learn and teach each other through scansion and re-writes and discussion etc.

I would like to go beyond the open ended comments we often give and get in the crit section. I for one want to hear details.

"This needs to be tightened up a bit." Well yeah but what do you mean, how would you do it?

If the flow is off what would you change? Word order, different word choice and if so what?

I guess we'll start with mine. I didn't think about or worry about trochee meter so it will be interesting to see how we can tear it up and improve it.

And don't worry, if you want to come right out and say, "Damn Jeff, this really sucks," that's fine. Just be ready to say more than it "needs fixing".

I'll see you all tomorrow and look forward to getting into this! Thank you for your time and particpation.

First, thank you for the link to Don Quixote. It completely slipped my mind to include one. Pardon the oversight please.

Next, let me say I am impressed by your submissions. And after reading them, espescially Rob's, I am ashamed to be offering such drivel or attempting to "lead" those who are so clearly, already way ahead of me. But, I have always said I am no expert, and as long as no one gets the impression I am trying to "teach", but that I am merely organizing, then I am comfortable in continuing this.

Ok, so let's take a look at my Don Quixote disaster.

|Don Qui|xote|, the leg|end told|,
|Was Knight|-errant| on a| great quest|.
|But real|ly he| wasn’t| the best|
|At ser|ving in| the ranks| of old|.

|Have you| heard of| Don Qui|xote|?
|Of sound| mind, they| said he| was not|.
|Delu|sions he| suffered| a lot|.
|Could it| have been| the pey|ote|?

As we can see this poem lacks consistent meter, beauty, and any real meaning. The only thing it has going for it is a little humor that relates to the eccentric or bizarre adventures of the character.

From "Bob's Byway of Poetic Terms":
http://www.poeticbyway.com/gl-t.html

TROCHEE (TROH-kee), TROCHAIC (troh-KAY-ick)
A metrical foot with a long or accented syllable followed by a short or unaccented syllable, as in ON-ly or TO-tal, or the opening line of Poe's "The Raven:"
ONCE up- | ON a | MID-night | DREAR-y, | WHILE I | PON-dered, | WEAK and | WEAR-y,

Sidelight: In English poetry, trochaic verse in long poems is infrequent since it can produce a monotonous effect, but this problem is avoided in short poems such as William Blake's "The Lamb," and "Tyger! Tyger!"

Sidelight: In a trochaic line of verse, the last syllable is often omitted to end the line with an accented syllable. A line thus shortened is termed catalectic.

Click to expand...

While there are many trochaic feet within my poem, few if any, fall in the proper sequence. And, it may just be my lack of knowledge, but I can't for the life of me figure out how you could ever use most three syllable words in a trochaic verse. Which brings up something I would like for us to discuss while we're here.

WORD ACCENTING -

I bolded the stresses I felt most people would see as they read this. Without them consulting a dictionary of course. It is my understanding that all one syllable words are unstressed or unaccented, but for poetry are often used as stressed to fulfill the meter rquirements.

If that is true, how words are used isn't always dictionary perfect. Sometimes an unstressed word is used and scanned as a stressed word. I have seen this in examples of scansion of iambic pentameter, and if we consider the word Quixote, we might see what I mean.

Technically it is qui-HO-te, which works fine as a trochee foot if it is led by a stressed syllable and followed by a stressed one as well. But depending on who is reading it or how someone "chooses" to stress it to fulfill form requirements and their desired intent or expression, it could just as easily be QUI-ho-te, or QUI-hoTAY if you really hit the last syllable for dramatic effect.

It would be my guess, that how a word HAS to be stressed was probably one of the first "rules" to be stretched or broken.

I would appreciate your thoughts and knowledge on this.

THE RE-WRITE -

Don Quixote, the legend told,
Was Knight-errant on quest so great.
Sadly rode he to waiting fate
Though mind was weak, his heart was bold.

Have you heard of Don Quixote?
His common sense they thought was strange.
Delusions did his mind derange.
All results of sweet peyote?

I stayed as close to the original (as pathetic as it is) for the purposes of this workshop. Otherwise, I would have changed or scrapped it completely.

To me, this one feels a little more serious. The humor of the last line is there, but now it's a little more subtle and feels perhaps more thought provoking than the first version.

Now, I think you all should critique and post any comments and questions and after any discussion, we'll move on to "Man OF LA MANCHA" by Pat, and just go in order of how they were posted.

MEETING TOGETHER AS A GROUP -

I'll check in here at 8 PM tonight, and just leave this window open till late night, and keep checking back should anyone have a comment.

I'm trying to be as flexible as I can so if any or all can agree on set hours that work for everyone I'm open to a consensus. I not opposed to anything from 6PM to 3, 4, 5, AM eastern standard time.

Just let me know.