The worst submission scenario

Lindo · May 29, 2007

I've been made more aware of this from living in the Third World so that sending a manuscript to somebody can cost me like $60 all in.
An awareness freshened by my attempts to help a local writer translate and sell a foreign language novel.

The worst thing that can happen is that you have a great query, a great first few chapters or 50 pages or whatever: such a great presentation package that lots of agents or publishers ask for the complete manuscript. Which doesn't live up to their expectations and thus gets shredded and bleeds you to death.

It's a variation of something I dealt with in preparing mail order catalogs: you can oversell the product or take such a cool picture that it generates lots of orders, but they get returned (the mail order nightmare: shipping and handling and stock expenses with no income at all).

This can lead to all sorts of thoughts. One might be, underplay your pitch.

Another is my continued opinion that these people are stupid to always insist on seeing just the first X pages, when the last pages are just as signifcant, maybe more so. You don't REALLY have to grab the reading audience right of the bat, but you sure as hell have to grab them when the close the book.

I'm still working on this one. Anybody?

jhtatroe · May 29, 2007

Rather than "underplay your pitch," I'd say to make sure the novel lives up to the hype.

Although, I guess that's easier said than done.

RLSMiller · May 29, 2007

My greatest submission fear is that I'll write a great and compelling story, query and all the rest of it, but then the person who reads my query will be so disillusioned by the questionable quality of most slush-pile work, or just be having a really bad or overly critical day that they'll dismiss my whole manuscript based on the first paragraph.

I just hope that slush pile readers will be so relieved to see coherent sentences that they'll continue reading no matter what.

Surely an agent wouldn't be too quick to dismiss a manuscript, purely on the off chance that they may be reading the Next Big Thing? It happened to J.K Rowling, although to be fair her whole first chapter was questionable, not just the first paragraph, and her success couldn't really have been predicted.

Anne Lyle · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
The worst thing that can happen is that you have a great query, a great first few chapters or 50 pages or whatever: such a great presentation package that lots of agents or publishers ask for the complete manuscript. Which doesn't live up to their expectations and thus gets shredded and bleeds you to death.

Yeah, that sucks. I'm not looking forward to it. My sympathies if you've already gone through it.

This can lead to all sorts of thoughts. One might be, underplay your pitch.

What, and risk not getting asked for more? That's shooting yourself in the foot, matey.

Another is my continued opinion that these people are stupid to always insist on seeing just the first X pages, when the last pages are just as signifcant, maybe more so. You don't REALLY have to grab the reading audience right of the bat, but you sure as hell have to grab them when the close the book.

But in your own worst case scenario, the problem is the reverse - grabbing them with the first few pages and then losing them at some point during the full. Maybe you don't have to grab the reader by the cojones on the first page, but you have to draw him in, inexorably, until he can't resist reading just a little bit more to find out what happens next... (I used the masculine pronoun here since we ladies don't have the relevant anatomy

)

Writing a full-length work of fiction is hard. It's hard to keep the narrative drive going, the plot twisting and turning. You can't say 'oh as long as the beginning/end/whatever is stonking, the rest can be just OK.' It all has to be good.

Lindo · May 29, 2007

I always am careful to distinguish--when people say you have to draw your reader in, grab them on the first page, etc.--between professional readers and the actually paying audience out there.

The latter do NOT have to be grabbed up right away. People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

No, they go by a lot of things: reviews, word of mouth, the jacket blurb very much. They're even affected by author photos and even by the cover art. (Don't knock that: people say you can't tell a book by the cover, but there is definitely a relationship between the overall experience of the book and the cover design. Often more so than trying to extrapolate from the introductory pages.)

I suppose what I meant to say was not "underplay your pitch" but "don't overplay your pitch".

Gillhoughly · May 29, 2007

People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

Every single time.

I pay no attention to hype, having been disappointed time and again. Either the writing is good and hooks me or I put the book back and reach for another that will.

CaroGirl · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
Another is my continued opinion that these people are stupid to always insist on seeing just the first X pages, when the last pages are just as signifcant, maybe more so. You don't REALLY have to grab the reading audience right of the bat, but you sure as hell have to grab them when the close the book.

I'm still working on this one. Anybody?

I think, more than expecting the first X pages to be the best, agents and editors expect them to be as representative of your story and writing ability as the last, and every page in between. And stories start at the beginning, do they not?

Cassidy · May 29, 2007

i don't see how you can overplay your pitch, if by that you mean making your query absolutely professional and compelling. after all, your goal with the query is to get them interested enough to want to see the full manuscript. after that, all kinds of factors can figure in to whether or not you get the offer of a contract-- whether the rest of the manuscript is of the same quality as the first chapters, of course, but also whether it is a good fit for that agent or editor's needs at that time. anyway, it sounds like you're on the right track if you are getting requests for the full manuscript. i sympathize on the cost... a tax write off i guess, if one ever makes enough to need it!

i actually do often read the first few pages in the book store and buy the book if i like the writing. i agree that covers are important-- a cover will get me to pick the book up off the shelf, but if i don't like the writing, i'll be putting in right back down.

rugcat · May 29, 2007

jhtatroe said:
Rather than "underplay your pitch," I'd say to make sure the novel lives up to the hype.

Or at least make sure you accurately portray what you've written. It's a temptation to slant your query toward what you know the agent will like, but it's a waste if it the reality doesn't match the description.

No rejections are pleasant, but better a "this doesn't seem my sort of thing" response to a query than to send off a partial or even a full to an agent who isn't going to be interested, wasting time and money.

CaroGirl · May 29, 2007

It's also a good idea to research agents before querying. There are probably a lot of needless rejections of mss that are simply sent to the wrong place. A literary agency isn't gonna look at your SF query no matter how wonderful it is. And the fantasy publisher isn't going to have much use for your non-fiction book about the life of squids. Make the agent handles your genre, word count, and would be a good fit BEFORE sending blind queries out here, there and everywhere. It saves everyone time and money.

Linda Adams · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

I do all the time. I've put many a book back because the first page didn't do much for me.

Will Lavender · May 29, 2007

Two Things You Must Do

Write a good book. Write a good query.

The Lady · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
. People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

quote]

Always. And then I check a few random pages here and there to check that the writer continues to be consistent. I've learnt by now that some writing voices I can read, and some just propel me out of the book. So first paragraph matters. Then the back blurb. But even a wondrous back blurb will still see a book left on the shelf if the first page doesnt measure up.

Andre_Laurent · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

Well, I read the jacket first, then page one. If page one sucks....guess what....it goes back on the shelf.

aadams73 · May 29, 2007

I read the jacket first too, then I flick through the first couple of pages and see if I like the voice.

Jamesaritchie · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
I always am careful to distinguish--when people say you have to draw your reader in, grab them on the first page, etc.--between professional readers and the actually paying audience out there.

The latter do NOT have to be grabbed up right away. People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

Actually, for writers the reader doesn't know, this is the most common way of buying books, and it's what publishers plan for. Readers, plain ordinary readers, browse bookstores, pick up anything that looks interesting, read the jacket copy, and then flip to the first page and start reader. And the for couple of pages decide whether they'll buy the novel.

With new writers, with unexpected buys, there really isn't any other way to decide to buy a book.

And no matter how good the rest of the novel is, most readers do not keep reading if the opening loses them. I sure don't. Life is way too short, and there are far too many other novels, to spend time reading anything in hopes that it will grab me later on.

This doesn't mean you have to have slam-bang action up front, but you do have to keep the readers interested. You have to make them turn pages.

Jamesaritchie · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
I've been made more aware of this from living in the Third World so that sending a manuscript to somebody can cost me like $60 all in.
An awareness freshened by my attempts to help a local writer translate and sell a foreign language novel.

The worst thing that can happen is that you have a great query, a great first few chapters or 50 pages or whatever: such a great presentation package that lots of agents or publishers ask for the complete manuscript. Which doesn't live up to their expectations and thus gets shredded and bleeds you to death.

It's a variation of something I dealt with in preparing mail order catalogs: you can oversell the product or take such a cool picture that it generates lots of orders, but they get returned (the mail order nightmare: shipping and handling and stock expenses with no income at all).

This can lead to all sorts of thoughts. One might be, underplay your pitch.

Another is my continued opinion that these people are stupid to always insist on seeing just the first X pages, when the last pages are just as signifcant, maybe more so. You don't REALLY have to grab the reading audience right of the bat, but you sure as hell have to grab them when the close the book.

I'm still working on this one. Anybody?

The last pages are significant, but as Mickey Spillane said, "The first chapter sells this book, and the last chapter sells the next book."

The system works well. You should reveal the ending in your query letter, and in the synopsis/outline when you send sample chapters. If you leave the ending out, it's your fault, not because an agent or editor wants it this way.

And, yes, you absolutely do have to get a reader's interest right up front. No one is going to read the ending unless the rest of the novel is worth reading from page one all the way through.

Sixty bucks might seem like a lot of money, but it's your money, not an agent's money, and not an editor's money. And God awful cheap compared to what you'd have to invest in any other business.

I don't know why you'd want to underplay anything. This seems designed to draw rejections.

DeadlyAccurate · May 29, 2007

Lindo said:
The latter do NOT have to be grabbed up right away. People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

All the time. And if you watch people in the bookstore, you'll see that many of them buy the same way.

Step back from your book and look at it from a reader's perspective. As a reader, do those pages make you want to turn the page? That's the only thing that matters.

Philip64 · May 30, 2007

The pro reader and the regular kind...

Lindo said:
I always am careful to distinguish--when people say you have to draw your reader in, grab them on the first page, etc.--between professional readers and the actually paying audience out there.

I think there is some truth to this. People wading through large numbers of submissions are bound to place a premium on their particular idea of novelty, perhaps more than the book-buying public does. Professionals will read or skim-read hundreds of books a year. The average reader gets throught a tiny fraction of that. It stands to reason that their tastes and perspectives will diverge.

An opening that might grab a regular reader (if there is such a thing) may not grab a pro. The pro may have read similar openings before (often in unpublished work); or he may simply be too aware of the devices and methods being used. Equally, an opening that a pro thinks is startling and unique may strike most regular readers as obscure and frustrating.

This, however, is not really the heart of the matter...
In my experience, setting up a promising story - say in the opening 50 -100 pages - is easier than actually bringing it home. I have rarely had trouble developing a strong pitch for my ideas, regardless of medium. The really hard part is living up to the expectations you create.

I can't offer a solution. I can only assure you that not living up to a strong set-up or opening (whether as part of a pitch or a manuscript) is a very common problem in literature of all kinds. Living in the modern world, we have most of us absorbed the importance of developing instant appeal. Sadly, however, such skills will not help you a great deal with the meat and substance of a good book.

arkady · May 30, 2007

Lindo said:
People don't walk into a bookstore, pick up a book and start reading it, then make a decision to buy from the first pages. Do you buy that way?

No I don't. I take it for granted that the first few pages will be designed with plenty of snag appeal. I open the book to some random spot in the middle and see what the writing's like after the whiz-bang introductory page.

Nevertheless, whether Mr. and Mrs. Averagereader start from the first page or not, agents and publishers want their "hook" in the first page and first chapter, so we've got to supply it. Arguing about whether the majority of real-world readers do it or not is pointless. Unless you've got a string of published novels behind you, agents and publishers expect to be snagged on the very first page, and you'd better supply what they demand.

sunna · May 30, 2007

arkady said:
I open the book to some random spot in the middle and see what the writing's like after the whiz-bang introductory page.

Same here. I'll read the first few pages, and then a few passages in the middle, to see if the voice is consistently appealing.

Julie Worth · May 30, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
...Readers, plain ordinary readers, browse bookstores, pick up anything that looks interesting, read the jacket copy, and then flip to the first page and start reader. And the for couple of pages decide whether they'll buy the novel.

With new writers, with unexpected buys, there really isn't any other way to decide to buy a book.

I look up the book on Amazon and sort through the reader comments by lowest ratings first. I figure those are the people not related to the author. If it passes that test, I read the first few pages. If it doesn't have the search inside feature, I usually pass.

The worst submission scenario

Lindo

jhtatroe

RLSMiller

Anne Lyle

Fantastic historian

Lindo

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

CaroGirl

Living the dream

Cassidy

writing for kids and teens

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

CaroGirl

Living the dream

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.

The Lady

Critical Member

Andre_Laurent

aadams73

A Work in Progress

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

DeadlyAccurate

Absolutely Fazed

Philip64

sticking his oar in...

arkady

sunna

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?