Categories, trends and self-publishing.

pickman · May 26, 2007

Hello, I haven’t posted here in a while, but I have a few burning questions.

First, if a novel doesn’t fit into an easily definable category (e.g, literary, sci-fi, romance, etc), how much does this affect its chances of being published?

I have this idea for a novel that I’ve been obsessing over since last year. I thought I had long given up on novel writing, but I keep finding myself writing snatches of it in notebooks. The trouble is, I don't know how to market it to a publisher or agent if I do cave in and write it.

I suppose the novel could simply be labelled “Science Fiction”, as it is set 100 to 150 years in the future, in my own twisted vision of the UK. However, I have heard of mainstream writers who have set stories 10-20 years into the future, and their work is not labelled Sci-fi. Also, my idea does not revolve around scientific questions in the same way that science fiction traditionally does – my novel revolves around a plot that is more reminiscent of a political thriller than something by H. G. Wells. The novel is also humorous, like a darker version of Red Dwarf or Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. I suppose it could even be classed as satire in places.

So what does that make my novel: a comedy-sci-fi-thriller? And where would that be placed in Waterstones?

To be honest, I’m not that clued up about science fiction, besides my obsession with William Gibson. I draw more from William Burroughs and P. G. Wodehouse. The novel this book most closely resembles is Naked Lunch, and what the hell is that classed as?

That’s the main question, but I also have a few secondary questions:

Is there a website or magazine that can keep me up to date in trends in the world of publishing, and can inform me of what is selling and what isn’t? Occasionally I come across best-seller lists in magazines, and that’s it. I would find this info useful, not just for writing novels, but as research for a publishing venture I’m thinking about starting.

Finally, what are the chances of a self-published novel being taken up by a publishing company or agent?

Apologies for the length of the post. I appreciate any info or advice anyone can offer.

RLSMiller · May 26, 2007

pickman said:
Hello, I haven’t posted here in a while, but I have a few burning questions.

First, if a novel doesn’t fit into an easily definable category (e.g, literary, sci-fi, romance, etc), how much does this affect its chances of being published?

I have this idea for a novel that I’ve been obsessing over since last year. I thought I had long given up on novel writing, but I keep finding myself writing snatches of it in notebooks. The trouble is, I don't know how to market it to a publisher or agent if I do cave in and write it.

I suppose the novel could simply be labelled “Science Fiction”, as it is set 100 to 150 years in the future, in my own twisted vision of the UK. However, I have heard of mainstream writers who have set stories 10-20 years into the future, and their work is not labelled Sci-fi. Also, my idea does not revolve around scientific questions in the same way that science fiction traditionally does – my novel revolves around a plot that is more reminiscent of a political thriller than something by H. G. Wells. The novel is also humorous, like a darker version of Red Dwarf or Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. I suppose it could even be classed as satire in places.

So what does that make my novel: a comedy-sci-fi-thriller? And where would that be placed in Waterstones?

To be honest, I’m not that clued up about science fiction, besides my obsession with William Gibson. I draw more from William Burroughs and P. G. Wodehouse. The novel this book most closely resembles is Naked Lunch, and what the hell is that classed as?

That’s the main question, but I also have a few secondary questions:

Is there a website or magazine that can keep me up to date in trends in the world of publishing, and can inform me of what is selling and what isn’t? Occasionally I come across best-seller lists in magazines, and that’s it. I would find this info useful, not just for writing novels, but as research for a publishing venture I’m thinking about starting.

Finally, what are the chances of a self-published novel being taken up by a publishing company or agent?

Apologies for the length of the post. I appreciate any info or advice anyone can offer.

1. Perhaps futuristic fiction would work? I'm not sure if that's a definitive genre, but something to think about. I would just think about the main elements of your book - if it's set in the future, has sci-fi elements and comedy, then you could call it futuristic sci-fi with satire elements? I'm not too sure about this, just musing.

2. http://www.publishersmarketplace.com/ - A good site I believe but it's not free.

3. Self-published novels, from what I've heard, have a slight stigma associated with them. However, if you managed to shift a good few thousand copies (I heard 10,000+ was a good number from an online interview with an editor, can't remember where it was), then that works in your favour. It depends on the agent/publisher - some people don't like em, others won't penalize you for self-publishing.

Anne Lyle · May 26, 2007

1. Write it first. There's no point worrying about agents and publishers if you have nothing to submit.

2. When you have written it, submit it to agents and publishers who handle SF, because non-SF folk might be put off by the SF elements. If you still feel it wouldn't fit comfortably on the SF shelves, just describe as "my novel, 'Great Title' (x,000 words)" and leave them to decide what to publish it as.

Genre is a slippery thing. Alternate history is technically SF, but there are plenty of alt hist novels being published under mainstream imprints (e.g. "Fatherland" by Robert Harris). My own alt hist/soft SF novel may well end up being published as fantasy, simply because it's the kind of swashbuckling stuff that fantasy fans like, and there's no advanced tech, time travel or other obvious SF tropes in it. Frankly I don't care, as long as someone wants to publish it under a decent contract

Stijn Hommes · May 26, 2007

Seems there's ample options for the agent to pick out a genre. If your story is set in your own twisted version of the UK and has the plot of a political thriller, to me, it seems it should be marketed as a thriller. Only way to find out for sure is to write the novel.

Siddow · May 26, 2007

Sign up for the Free Lunch at publisher's marketplace. Once a week you'll get an email detailing several sales--who wrote the book, what it's about, and a ballpark figure of what it sold for.

One thing to keep in mind as far as trends go: the books being published now were written a year or two ago. There's no sense in trying to follow trends. Write a book you love, send it out, and write another. The only time to even think about what a publisher is specifically looking for is when you have a product to sell. If you finish this book and then hear that someone at Harper-Collins is looking for far-future, humorous thrillers, then by jove, find a way to let them know you have what they're looking for.

JoNightshade · May 26, 2007

pickman said:
I suppose the novel could simply be labelled “Science Fiction”, as it is set 100 to 150 years in the future, in my own twisted vision of the UK. However, I have heard of mainstream writers who have set stories 10-20 years into the future, and their work is not labelled Sci-fi. Also, my idea does not revolve around scientific questions in the same way that science fiction traditionally does – my novel revolves around a plot that is more reminiscent of a political thriller than something by H. G. Wells. The novel is also humorous, like a darker version of Red Dwarf or Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. I suppose it could even be classed as satire in places.

I can answer this one. If you're not previously published, just call it sci fi. Nobody cares about any of the other little divisions within sci fi-- what matters is where it will be found in the book store. And there's no "satire sci fi" section, it's just sci fi.

As for other authors who have written futuristic novels that are shelved in, say, mainstream fiction, this is generally because the majority of the author's OTHER books are found in that same genre. Generally, bookstores don't like to split up authors (they are easier to find all together and there's a better chance of selling if you have more books). So just disregard those.

maestrowork · May 26, 2007

Boy, you haven't started writing it yet and you're already wondering if you should self-publish it?

First, just write it. The only person stopping you is you.

Second, worry about the genre later. Unless your book is really off the chart, unlike anything else in the world (but judging from your name-dropping, I bet it's not that unique), or totally out of focus, you should be fine. You can market it as satire, distopia, romance, SFF, whatever. If you get published, your publisher will decide exactly what it is.

If you REALLY do want to write to market, then you should do some research. Find out what is out there, what is the closest to your ms, and look at their market.

Some self-published books do get mainstream attention, but we know about them exactly because they are rare. If you self-publish then you will have to do extra work to try to make it successful enough to garner interest. My thought is, why not just focus on writing a great book?

The bottomline is, until you actually sit down and write, everything is just "talk."

The Lady · May 26, 2007

pickman said:
Finally, what are the chances of a self-published novel being taken up by a publishing company or agent?

Almost none. Don't bother going that way until you have exhausted all other possibilities because it really is a dead end.

kristie911 · May 26, 2007

You're definitely putting the cart before the horse in this case.

Write it...then you can worry about who's going to publish it. Right now, you don't even know if you'll finish it. Your publisher is the least of your worries.

pickman · May 27, 2007

Thanks for all the helpful replies. It has helped me to sort my head out on this issue.

So basically I should just write it and let the agent or publisher decide which shelf of the bookshops its going to end up on. I suspect it's probably going to be shoved under "sci-fi", but I'll see once I've written it completely.

maestrowork: I realize that my novel probably isn't going to be completely unique, and I have been inspired by the writers I've namedropped in my post. But have you ever read a novel with totally original characters, settings, plot, style, etc? I can at least say that that there are plenty of elements in my novel that are unique (to my knowledge anyway).

Thanks for the publishers marketplace link, that looks very useful. I'll sign up to that newsletter. The main reason I wanted this info was for my own idea for a publising business, and nothing to do with my own writing. I know how futile it would be to write a novel to cash in on a trend.

I thought self-publishing might be a harder route to take. I was inspired by Stephen Clarke who wrote 'A Year in the Merde', which does looks like a novel that would be difficult to place in a conventional publishing company. So he started his own company to publish his books, and he did quite well out of it from what I can tell. I have also found myself brainstorming interesting ways to market a self-published novel, that are encouraging me to go down that route if I have to.

Cheers.

justpat · May 27, 2007

Everyone is giving this guy a bad time because he is asking about publishers and agents before he even wrote the book. Whats wrong with that? Its called thinking ahead. I know writing is an art, but its also a business, and its good business to research a market before you make the product. Personally, before I start a new book, one of the things I do is write a query letter for it, not to send out, just to see how original it sounds. If it doesn't query well, then thats an indication that it isn't original enough or still needs work.

We all want to be published, that means we have to be loyal to our art, but also keep in mind that the agents and publishers are in it to make money. I'm not saying you have to hack together a formula novel, but you have to think about the bottom line.

Siddow · May 27, 2007

When I was reading my email today, I thought of another thing you might enjoy. It's a Books Update from the NYT. I get the Times headlines in my box daily, but once a week I also get the Books section, and it has some great articles and first chapters and such.

www.nytimes.com

ChaosTitan · May 27, 2007

justpat said:
Everyone is giving this guy a bad time because he is asking about publishers and agents before he even wrote the book. Whats wrong with that?

No one is giving pickman a hard time, just offering their advice based on experience. Writing a novel is hard. Millions of people want to write one. Hundreds of thousands of people start to write one. Maybe a few thousand of that ever actually finish writing one.

Finishing is the hard part. Editing a first novel into something that is saleable is even harder. It's a "cart before the horse" issue because the market is very fluid. What might be true for selling in certain genres will undoubtably be different in the six to twelve months it may take for pickman's novel to be written, rewritten and polished to perfection.

No one is telling him to not think ahead, but he shouldn't be wasting energy stressing over marketability until he's got at least one draft in the bank. Put that valuable energy into writing.

weatherfield · May 27, 2007

Your description makes me think of dystopia books, first and foremost. I may be way off base, but when you said twisted version of the UK, it got me thinking about A Clockwork Orange and 1984 and maybe as an American counterpart, Fahrenheit 451. It seems to me that these types of books often wind up in general literature, but can also be shelved in Science Fiction, although they may not rely on science as a plot mechanism. I do think that it can depend a great deal on your writing style, though.

I agree with what people are saying in that you shouldn't worry much about the marketing part yet, but I think it's always useful to know which books yours will most likely resemble, and to read accordingly. While I can't think of any dystopian examples that are overtly humorous, I'd be surprised if there were none whatsoever.

Seeing as you like Gibson, do you also like Philip K. Dick? I think he's very good to look at in terms of futuristic stuff that's dark and highly politicized.

job · May 27, 2007

>>>because he is asking about publishers and agents before he even wrote the book. Whats wrong with that? <<<<

There's nothing precisely wrong with it,

but it's a little bit like asking MaryAnn Hartleson,
the head cheerleader
what she wants to name the first son you two will have,
before she actually agrees to go out on a date.

'George, John, Paul, or Ringo?' is an interesting question
and one to devote some thought to,
but there are about 534,781 other questions that might turn out to be of more immediate use,
like,
'What are you doing Friday night?'
and
'Have you seen the movie at the Regal?'

BenPanced · May 27, 2007

pickman said:
Finally, what are the chances of a self-published novel being taken up by a publishing company or agent?

Slim to none. Agents and publishers are looking for first publication rights. If you tell them it's already been self-published, they'll take a pass because it's already been published. It's very, very rare when a self-pubbed book gets picked up by one of the larger houses, but I wouldn't pin my hopes on that happening. As others have said on these boards, aim high.

pickman · May 28, 2007

weatherfield said:
Your description makes me think of dystopia books, first and foremost.

I think the novel will be probaby be a dystopian novel, although I'm not trying to shove any political or moral message down the readers throat. The setting is harsh in places, not-so-harsh in others, and the characters used to it. They are just getting on with their part in the plot.

Seeing as you like Gibson, do you also like Philip K. Dick? I think he's very good to look at in terms of futuristic stuff that's dark and highly politicized.

I've only read 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep,' and I liked it. While I would like to check out more of his work, I don't know if I would describe my idea as highly politicized. Some of my characters are politicians, there are some changes to UK and international politics in my setting, but that's it so far.

Siddow - thanks for the NY Times link. I notice the book section contains bestseller lists, which I will find useful.

chaostitan - thanks for the advice, but I want to stress that this isn't my first novel. I have completed two novels in the past, and they were both rubbish. However, that was some years ago and I consider myself to be more mature as a writer. I am aware that completing a novel is not a walk in the park. This is why I am jumping the gun a bit by asking about how to market a novel I haven't properly started writing, and which currently exists as a folder filled with notes and index cards. I think that writing a novel is a huge gamble - it costs a lot in time, effort and sanity, and is likely to yield nothing in return. I prefer my risks to be calculated at least some way in my favour.

Having said that, I am so obsessed with my novel idea that I will probably end up writing it anyway, despite my doubts about it's marketability. I suppose that if I have to self-publish it, I will have to be very creative and driven in the way that I market it.

Anne Lyle · May 28, 2007

pickman said:
I think that writing a novel is a huge gamble - it costs a lot in time, effort and sanity, and is likely to yield nothing in return. I prefer my risks to be calculated at least some way in my favour.

I can understand your concern - you want to produce a book that has a decent chance of being published. However, what you start writing in 2007 isn't likely to get published until, say, 2010 (pulling ballpark figures out of the top of my head and assuming you are not a book-a-decade sort of writer), and who knows what will be in vogue by then? Far better to strike out with something that isn't like the currently published books than flogging an already dying horse!

pickman said:
Having said that, I am so obsessed with my novel idea that I will probably end up writing it anyway, despite my doubts about it's marketability. I suppose that if I have to self-publish it, I will have to be very creative and driven in the way that I market it.

Exhaust your options in the traditional market first, including small publishers. And if you must self-publish, make sure you use a reputable POD publisher, not a vanity press in disguise. I'm sure those poor sods that signed up with PA think they're being "creative and driven" in marketing their work - but they're just being exploited. A lot of "creative marketing" boils down to ill-conceived schemes that annoy people and reach very few actual readers.

To be honest, I'm skeptical about the value of self-publishing a novel. Memoirs, poetry, specialist non-fiction - yes, because no matter how well-written such works might be, the audience may never be big enough to be worth a publisher's while. But if you want to be a fiction writer, you're better off working on your writing than wasting your time in self-marketing. Sure, order a few copies from Lulu.com to give to your friends when every publisher has turned your novel down - but don't mistake that ego-stroking for a career path...

Good luck, BTW - obsession and dogged perseverance are essential!

RLSMiller · May 28, 2007

Redfox said:
I can understand your concern - you want to produce a book that has a decent chance of being published. However, what you start writing in 2007 isn't likely to get published until, say, 2010 (pulling ballpark figures out of the top of my head and assuming you are not a book-a-decade sort of writer), and who knows what will be in vogue by then? Far better to strike out with something that isn't like the currently published books than flogging an already dying horse!

Unless, of course, you write a book so fantastic or 'current' that the publishers rush it out in a few months to ensure maximum sales(aka a Crash book). Ambitious, sure, but we can dream.

pickman · May 28, 2007

Redfox said:
And if you must self-publish, make sure you use a reputable POD publisher

Or set up my own publishing company! Just a thought.

To be honest, I'm skeptical about the value of self-publishing a novel.

I am as well for the most part, especially where fiction is concerned. But it seems like the kind of challenge that appeals to me.

but don't mistake that ego-stroking for a career path...

It's funny how self-criticism flies out of the window when you get obsessed with your work (or maybe that's just me). I really hope I'm not deluding myself with this, like I did for the last two novels. I'll just have to see how it develops.

veinglory · May 28, 2007

As you are still writing there is time for you to develop and understanding of what self-publishing can and cannot acheive before you make the final choice.

JanDarby · May 28, 2007

There's a thread somewhere from the last month or two on starting one's own publishing company. Maybe someone here remembers what the thread's title was. I can't remember enough to do a search for it.

Bottom line: it's a lot of work for little reward, and requires business skills, rather than writing skills.

JD

Lindo · May 28, 2007

Just because a novel is set in the future doesn't necessarily mean it's not a mainstream novel. Examples of literary and best-seller future books include:
Alas Babylon, On the Beach, Clockwork Orange and Wanting Seed, Handmaid's Tale, most of Vonnegutt (it's hard to describe Sirens of Titan or Slaughterhouse Five as anything other than SciFi, but few people would think of them that way).

A lot of it has to do with your voice and how you do what you do. For instance, most people would see Hitchhiker's guide as a humor book, not SciFi. So, as a previous poster advised (not to mention the Nike campaign) just do it, worry about the pigeonholes when it comes home to roost.

Lindo · May 28, 2007

It was a fad for awhile to pick up self-published books. I briefly shared an agent with Bill Branon who published Let Us Prey by himself, sold it very well (it was about a revolt against the evil IRS, which struck a chord) and it got picked up by, as I recall, Schuster. There was trouble right off the bat. THe original was like 500 pages and Schuster wanted it cut, which Branon, shadow warrior that he was, resisted pugnaciously. I seem to recall the book didn't really meet expectations. On the other hand, it launched Branon's career. He was sort of the poster boy for "swapmeet sales goes bigtime", but the big houses lost interest in that means of acquiring titles and I get the impression that their current attitude toward it is pretty negative.

I know people who make a decent living on self-published books. I have done so myself. But NOT FICTION.

Elektra · May 28, 2007

It sounds kinda like speculative fiction. Isn't that what Dave Kuzminski writes?

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