How to stretch out a novel to fill more pages?

Michael Dracon · Apr 24, 2007

I didn't want to hijack another thread for this question, so I posted it in a new one.

I have a problem in that I'm thinking too big. I have two full-blown trilogies layed out on docs.google.com and each of them are actually already split up in 3 acts. I know when MCs are going to get hurt, when some MCs will leave and when new MCs will be added. I know the personality of an MC that won't appear until book 4. I know how the events in book 1 will affect what ultimately will happen in book 6. Hell, I have ideas for a sci-fi trilogy that will show the results of a major cataclysmic event that happens in book 5.

But I'm currently writing the first few chapters of book 1 and I have no idea on how to fill up the word count...

I know exactly what needs to happen in the book. I even split it into 3 parts. But with what I have right now I come up to about 10k words for part 1, and the novel needs to become about 100k words...

I know how to plan big things. It's the little things that keep bugging me. I need to figure out how to stretch a two-line chat into a two-page conversation. How do I turn 10k words into 40k?

Shady Lane · Apr 24, 2007

I have no idea, but when you figure it out, let me know. I'm tired of writing YA's under 30,000 words.

scarletpeaches · Apr 24, 2007

One of the characters could have a really long dream, described in detail. Then you have them wake up and say to a friend, "Whoa...I just had a really weird dream. Wanna hear all about it?"

Chumplet · Apr 24, 2007

Write the story, then go back and flesh it out with description, action etc. Get some feeeeeeling into it.

Siddow · Apr 24, 2007

Look over it and make sure you're writing it in scenes. Showing, not telling.

And perhaps think about this: maybe you do only have enough for one book.

Penguin Queen · Apr 24, 2007

Maybe I'm getting hung up on the word here, but "stretching" does not sound like a good idea to me. You do not want to write "filler". It will read like filler. You do not want one word too many.

You say you plan big, but if things dont start happening until Book #3, why would your readers want to read Book #1? Might it be a better idea to cut all the "filler" and make one book out of your proposed trilogy?

Or else, come up with more plot and stuff that happens now. A sub-plot, a new character.... that kinda thing. You must want to write this, otherwise poeple won't want to read it.

NeuroFizz · Apr 24, 2007

Michael Dracon said:
But I'm currently writing the first few chapters of book 1 and I have no idea on how to fill up the word count...

I'll be blunt. First, of all, I suspect the clipped quote above was just a poor choice of words. Putting words on paper does not make a story. Nothing in a novel should be put in to fill up the word count. It will probably be quite obvious to the reader. Every chapter, every paragraph, every sentence should contribute to the story in some way.

Second, you shouldn't be thinking about a trilogy, particularly two of them, until you can first complete book one. And it has to be written as a stand alone story. It can certainly form a multi-volume story arc, but each book should have enough of a resolution to allow it to be read and understood without reading the others. So, you have to shift your thinking to that prospect--discovering and elaborating the story arc of the first book before worrying about what's going to happen in the other books.

This has been said multiple times by writers with much more experience than I have (paraphrased)--ideas are a dime a dozen, and jotting them down doesn't make a person a writer. It takes a writer to weave those ideas into a coherent and interesting story.

Shady Lane · Apr 24, 2007

scarletpeaches said:
One of the characters could have a really long dream, described in detail. Then you have them wake up and say to a friend, "Whoa...I just had a really weird dream. Wanna hear all about it?"

*Starts writing furiously*

Michael Dracon · Apr 24, 2007

I have been thinking of putting a whole trilogy of those ideas into one single book. But then there is just so much happening in one single book. Another problem is that each of the novels, as currently planned, has a gap of a few months in between them. There have to be gaps in there because the MCs need time to learn certain things.

Let me lay out book 1:
Part 1:
- chapter 1 introduces 2 MCs, 2 sisters to be more exact
- chapter 2 introduces the third MC (the goth-to-be mentioned in another thread)
- chapter 3 complicates matters and gives some idea of what the antagonists are like. in here the MCs will realize that magic can help them solve it
- chapter 4 has the MCs finding a way to learn magic
- chapter 5, 6 and 7 each follows a single MC learning magic

Part 2:
In here the MCs are going to find the antagonists and confront them

Part 3:
In here the MCs are going to find the persons behind the previous antagonists and confront them as well. Here a 4th MC will join in and help out.

So far part 1 has about 10k words worth of stuff. With the amount of details already put in part 1 I have no clue how to flesh out parts 2 and 3 yet. And with chapters clocking in at about 1000 to 2000 words I'm thinking I'm not putting in enough details...

I've been thinking of splitting chapter 1 into two chapters. But then I'll have the 3 first chapters each follow a different MC. And I don't want the reader to lose track there already.

Judg · Apr 24, 2007

I'm not going to repeat what I said in the other thread. Maybe you're trying to stretch too little plot over too many books. PQ's suggestion sounds good to me.

It's hard to say without seeing the outline of your plot though. Is your problem too little plot? In that case, listen to PQ. Or is your pacing way too fast, burning through events faster than readers can absorb them? In that case, you really do need to "pad" things with description, character development, internal conflict, some sideways exploration, exposition of motivation. But all of this should serve, if not to advance the plot, to flesh it out, reveal character, support the theme, engage the reader. Call on the five senses, look at body language, set up some undercurrents...

Check out the questions I posted in the Chapter Set-up thread. They might be helpful sometimes.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 24, 2007

NeuroFizz said:
I'll be blunt. First, of all, I suspect the clipped quote above was just a poor choice of words. Putting words on paper does not make a story. Nothing in a novel should be put in to fill up the word count. It will probably be quite obvious to the reader. Every chapter, every paragraph, every sentence should contribute to the story in some way.

Second, you shouldn't be thinking about a trilogy, particularly two of them, until you can first complete book one. And it has to be written as a stand alone story. It can certainly form a multi-volume story arc, but each book should have enough of a resolution to allow it to be read and understood without reading the others. So, you have to shift your thinking to that prospect--discovering and elaborating the story arc of the first book before worrying about what's going to happen in the other books.

This has been said multiple times by writers with much more experience than I have (paraphrased)--ideas are a dime a dozen, and jotting them down doesn't make a person a writer. It takes a writer to weave those ideas into a coherent and interesting story.

I agree that you should not try to "fill up" anything as far as word count is concerned because a novel does NOT need to be 100K words like you originally posted. Depending on the age level you are writing for a novel can be anywhere from 15,000 words and up. You shouldn't try to aim for a specific word count. Instead, write the story and see how long it is.

However, I do disagree with NeuroFizz on not writing a series as a beginning author. I think that if you have what it takes to write a series you should go for it, but you have to be realistic about it. For example, my first project, The Gemstone Chronicles, was originally meant to be a seven book series, but as I began to plot out everything I realized that I didn't have enough story for a large series like that. Now the story is a trilogy. Look at your story and see what you really have to work with. Don't try to set unrealistic goals where you need to fill in the story with nonsense. Look at your story logically and see if it should be altered into a two book series or a single novel. If you feel you still have enough for a trilogy, by all means do it, but don't try to flush a story out unnecessarily or the story will get flushed by agents and publishers.

Michael Dracon said:
So far part 1 has about 10k words worth of stuff. With the amount of details already put in part 1 I have no clue how to flesh out parts 2 and 3 yet. And with chapters clocking in at about 1000 to 2000 words I'm thinking I'm not putting in enough details...

The size of the chapters is dependant on the age of your target audience. If you are writing a YA or Pre-teen then I'd say 2000-5000 word chapters is sufficient.

Judg · Apr 24, 2007

Um, what HAPPENS in those first few chapters? Introductions can be tedious.

Your problem seems to be a lack of conflict. Conflict isn't necessarily fighting: it's having a goal and being blocked in reaching it. You don't have to pull the central conflict in right away, but the POV character for the chapter should be trying to accomplish something (perhaps dumped in his/her lap by circumstances) and having some difficulty in doing so.

Gaps of time within a novel are not a problem. It happens all the time.

Michael Dracon · Apr 24, 2007

NeuroFizz said:
I'll be blunt. First, of all, I suspect the clipped quote above was just a poor choice of words. Putting words on paper does not make a story. Nothing in a novel should be put in to fill up the word count. It will probably be quite obvious to the reader. Every chapter, every paragraph, every sentence should contribute to the story in some way.

Second, you shouldn't be thinking about a trilogy, particularly two of them, until you can first complete book one. And it has to be written as a stand alone story. It can certainly form a multi-volume story arc, but each book should have enough of a resolution to allow it to be read and understood without reading the others. So, you have to shift your thinking to that prospect--discovering and elaborating the story arc of the first book before worrying about what's going to happen in the other books.

This has been said multiple times by writers with much more experience than I have (paraphrased)--ideas are a dime a dozen, and jotting them down doesn't make a person a writer. It takes a writer to weave those ideas into a coherent and interesting story.

Each of the books I've got planned has its own self-contained story. So far so good.

I'm already trying to set aside the bigger picture and focus on just book 1. But my problem is that apparantly my writing is very compact. And when I say 'fill it up' I do mean that. My conversations and desciptions of situations and locations are all straight and to-the-point. And that's where I need to fill it up.

I need to figure out a way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation without adding needless things.

rwam · Apr 24, 2007

My advice would be to write what you see as being 3 books and do the opposite: tighten, tighten....and tighten some more. Maybe it's a bad hunch, but my hunch says after doing so, you'll have a full-sized novel. I know it sounds cool to say you're writing a trilogy or two, but if you're unpublished (and I'm assuming you are) agents tend to be very very very very very very very reluctant and also a wee bit skeptical of looking at trilogies from first time novelists. And even if you end up with a series? I'd still make the first one stand on its own and market it as such.

NeuroFizz · Apr 24, 2007

Your outline doesn't give much information, Michael, so disregard the following if you are already doing something like the following.

It seems like you are playing the role of film director, with screenplay in hand--directing your characters through various movements and actions. What you should be doing is climbing into the skin of your characters while they are experiencing various events and challenges. Don't introduce us to your charcters, show them in some kind of scene in which their actions introduce us to how they act and react to that specific incident, so it tells us something about their character.

Having a chapter devoted to each of three MCs--to show in sequence how they learned magic -- may come off as contrived, telling. Try to avoid the descriptive distance and the rigid listing of topics. Write scenes in which you are the characters so we can see them from the inside out, not just from the outside at a distance.

Judg has excellent points on this.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 24, 2007

Michael Dracon said:
Each of the books I've got planned has its own self-contained story. So far so good.

I'm already trying to set aside the bigger picture and focus on just book 1. But my problem is that apparantly my writing is very compact. And when I say 'fill it up' I do mean that. My conversations and desciptions of situations and locations are all straight and to-the-point. And that's where I need to fill it up.

I need to figure out a way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation without adding needless things.

This statement alone tells me that you probably aren't ready to write a novel yet. It sounds to me like you are trying to mold your writing style after someone else because there is nothing wrong with having your dialogue and descriptions straight forward. That is how many authors write.

I would recommend that you put your novel on hold and start working on short stories for the time being. Short stories are an excellent way of improving your skills and when you feel that your skills have reached a proper level, then begin working on the novel.

Sassenach · Apr 24, 2007

Michael Dracon said:
I need to figure out a way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation without adding needless things.

This seems to indicate that you're not getting the point. There is no way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation.

Michael Dracon · Apr 24, 2007

Judg said:
Um, what HAPPENS in those first few chapters? Introductions can be tedious.

Your problem seems to be a lack of conflict. Conflict isn't necessarily fighting: it's having a goal and being blocked in reaching it. You don't have to pull the central conflict in right away, but the POV character for the chapter should be trying to accomplish something (perhaps dumped in his/her lap by circumstances) and having some difficulty in doing so.

Gaps of time within a novel are not a problem. It happens all the time.

In the first half of chapter 1 the following happens:
- Sister 1 works as a secretary at an insurance company. The first thing in the book is her handling several unhappy customers coming to her desk to complain. The first will wield a silver sword because he thinks it helps in defeating (what he thinks is) the monster behind the company. One more weird person right after that will illustrate that there is something strange going on.
- Sister 1 will check out something odd on one monitor and go out and check it. She'll end up finding a hidden room and peek in to see her boss do an unknown but clearly magical ritual
- Sister 1 will report this to her immediate superior and then will be sent off on paid vacation for making no sence to said person.
- Sister 1 will get a phone from Sister 2's school that she's causing trouble.

The second part of chapter 1 will show what kind of trouble that is.

Plenty of conflict. Hell, someone else would probably turn those 4 points into 2 full chapters already. But for some reason I just cannot get it fleshed out to something barely being just 1 chapter.

Michael Dracon · Apr 24, 2007

Sassenach said:
This seems to indicate that you're not getting the point. There is no way to turn a small chat into a multi-page conversation.

I get the point just fine. I don't want to do that.

My problem seems to be in general speed of things. I want things to happen quickly per chapter. But in most of the novels I read I see a lot less happening in a single chapter. Only the Dresden Files seem to come close to the speed I'd like to have in my novel, and that's because those generally have about 4 problems going on at the same time.

With me putting in some speed leads to compact writing, and thus less words...

It's an odd paradox.

Edit: sorry to edit this a few times, I need to find the right words to explain this.

Kristin Landon · Apr 24, 2007

This is a first draft, so why not relax and stop worrying about word count? Just write it to the length that feels right, and when you're done, see what you have. There's plenty of work left at that point, anyway.

Later in the process you may figure out a complication or an additional plotline that will flesh things out in the second draft while keeping the writing naturally compact.

Or, you may find you just have less book than you thought you did, and that your trilogy is indeed one novel. But better to settle for one solid novel than try to inflate it into something it isn't; that will show.

Either judgment is much easier to make when you have a complete manuscript.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 24, 2007

Michael Dracon said:
In the first half of chapter 1 the following happens:
- Sister 1 works as a secretary at an insurance company. The first thing in the book is her handling several unhappy customers coming to her desk to complain. The first will wield a silver sword because he thinks it helps in defeating (what he thinks is) the monster behind the company. One more weird person right after that will illustrate that there is something strange going on.
- Sister 1 will check out something odd on one monitor and go out and check it. She'll end up finding a hidden room and peek in to see her boss do an unknown but clearly magical ritual
- Sister 1 will report this to her immediate superior and then will be sent off on paid vacation for making no sence to said person.
- Sister 1 will get a phone from Sister 2's school that she's causing trouble.

The second part of chapter 1 will show what kind of trouble that is.

Plenty of conflict. Hell, someone else would probably turn those 4 points into 2 full chapters already. But for some reason I just cannot get it fleshed out to something barely being just 1 chapter.

That actually isn't enough conflict for a single chapter and you would be hard pressed to find any author who would be able to turn it into two chapters. The simple fact that you keep pushing the issue and insisting on expanding the plot is enough to make my head hurt.

I don't want to be rude and I'm trying not to be, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Unless you come to grips with the fact that your writing style is your own and stop worrying about "filling up" space, you will never make it as an author. You ARE NOT ready to write a novel and won't be ready any time in the near future if you continue to remain stubborn. Work on improving your skills and locking into your own style through short stories and then move on to novels when you finally understand what it takes to write one, which I get the impression more and more each time you respond, you don't understand what it takes to write one.

I recommend you take writing classes at a university, join a writers workshop, or something to help you to understand writing better.

Fillanzea · Apr 24, 2007

I suggest that you type up some entire chapters by writers whose pacing you admire. Type them out, so you can observe firsthand how much detail they include and where, and how they pace their scenes.

CaroGirl · Apr 24, 2007

I think you're going about things backwards. Novels don't begin with word count. They begin with characters, situations, plot, and, above all, story. Write your story. Use an outline if you must, but don't plan it as a trilogy. Plan it as a single story and divide it if you can't reasonably fit it into one book.

But, really, just write and write and write until "the end." Then see whatcha got. Honestly.

WildScribe · Apr 24, 2007

Penguin Queen said:
Maybe I'm getting hung up on the word here, but "stretching" does not sound like a good idea to me. You do not want to write "filler". It will read like filler. You do not want one word too many.

Yup.

rubarbb · Apr 24, 2007

Good arvice rwam, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Tighten it up, get rid of usless info and/or words.

How to stretch out a novel to fill more pages?

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