Is this illegal?

infinitus_kaze · Apr 19, 2007

I'm currently about 40% finished with a novel entitled Bel Canto and in the first chapter I make a joking reference to the Dungeons and Dragons games and Final Fantasy games calling them Dungeon Dragoons and Never-Ending Fantasy 49. I don't think that making those references is illegal, but I thought I would check to see if anyone here knew for certain whether or not I would be allowed by law to include those references. Does anyone know?

scarletpeaches · Apr 19, 2007

If you were arrested for things like that, it'd be pretty damn close to the thought police.

I think you'd be okay having a character say it, as it's a matter of opinion, as long as you don't say, "Playing this game gives you epilepsy," or "The makers of this game are all knuckleheads and junkies," from the narrator's point of view (i.e. yours). It could be - only could be - libel then.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 19, 2007

You're fine; you might want to skip the name completely and go with a generic like "role playing" or something, but then include references to the games that make it clear what you mean (elves or mages or whatever).

The potential difficulty in using the real names is a trademark issue; even if the game producers don't care, it's likely your publisher will. And the D and D folk like to sue publishers.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 19, 2007

The main character in the story is obsessed with role-playing games and in the first paragraph I'm describing his room filled with Dungeon Dragoons role-playing books and every one of the Never-Ending Fantasy video games. Then I make reference to him currently playing Never-Ending Fantasy 49 and being nearly finished with it. They are just meant to be playful variations of the originals without any ill intent. I'm just not sure if it breaks any sort of copywrite laws.

The targeted demographic for this novel is RPG fans and the novel is in the spirit of an RPG with the MC being thrust into a world called Bel Canto where he has to train to get stronger, find magical items to help him in his quest, and defeat the enemy in order to rescue the princess and protect the citizens of Bel Canto. I think that RPG fans will get a little laugh out of the names and not care, but I'm worried about the actual companies having a problem with it. Of course, the story is far more indepth than the simple synopsis I gave, but the synopsis only explains the aspect of the story that I feel will make it appealing to RPG fans.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 19, 2007

Medievalist said:
You're fine; you might want to skip the name completely and go with a generic like "role playing" or something, but then include references to the games that make it clear what you mean (elves or mages or whatever).

The potential difficulty in using the real names is a trademark issue; even if the game producers don't care, it's likely your publisher will. And the D and D folk like to sue publishers.

Sorry to double post, but I think we posted around the same time so I didn't see your post earlier.

This could be a bit of a problem if D&D decides to press charges. Perhaps I'll just make up a name without trying to make reference to D&D.

willietheshakes · Apr 19, 2007

I'd be more concerned with calling a novel Bel Canto at this point -- Ann Patchett won the PEN Faulkner AND the Orange Prize with her book by that title...

DeadlyAccurate · Apr 19, 2007

There is no D&D as a company. Wizards of the Coast owns the Dungeons & Dragons product line.

You might want to read the d20 SRD.

I can't imagine you'd be in any more trouble for referencing D&D than you would be referencing Coca-Cola or Kleenex, but the SRD should give you some insight.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 19, 2007

DeadlyAccurate said:
There is no D&D as a company. Wizards of the Coast owns the Dungeons & Dragons product line.

You might want to read the d20 SRD.

I can't imagine you'd be in any more trouble for referencing D&D than you would be referencing Coca-Cola or Kleenex, but the SRD should give you some insight.

I've been an expert witness in a case where D&D's TM owner was suing the Linux community over stuff in a couple of Man files; they're not nice. They want their TM.

But most publishers will tell you if you have a problem; just be upfront with them if they offer to publish, if you really really got to use a name instead of "his favorite dice for the game . . ."

infinitus_kaze · Apr 19, 2007

willietheshakes said:
I'd be more concerned with calling a novel Bel Canto at this point -- Ann Patchett won the PEN Faulkner AND the Orange Prize with her book by that title...

I'm not concerned by this at all. There are a lot of unrelated books out there with the same title. Off the top of my head I can think of "Castle in the Air" and "Castles in the Sky". I've named my book Bel Canto because the world in which the story takes place is called Bel Canto. I'm a music major and I wrote the locations in the book in appreciation of that. The world and all of the cities and continents within that world have musical terms for names such as Lied, Canzone, and Cantare. I'm not worried in the least that the title is the same as an award winning novel. Copywrite law states that you can place a copywrite on a work, but not on the its title; otherwise there would be a lot of authors, artists, and musicians in trouble for using the same titles for books, songs, albums, landscapes, etc.

herdon · Apr 20, 2007

You should change the names to Dungeons and Dragons and Final Fantasy respectively and then charge the companies an advertising fee.

Seriously, unless you are painting the games in a very bad light, this is a non-issue. Even if you are painting them in a very bad light it would probably be a non-issue. Trademark generally protects the use of a name for a product, not any utterence of the name.

Think on this: Coke and Pepsi commercials frequently refer to the competitor and try to put them in a bad light. Budwiser and Miller commercials do the same. You don't see Pepsi sueing Coke for trademark infringement.

willietheshakes · Apr 20, 2007

infinitus_kaze said:
I'm not concerned by this at all. There are a lot of unrelated books out there with the same title. Off the top of my head I can think of "Castle in the Air" and "Castles in the Sky". I've named my book Bel Canto because the world in which the story takes place is called Bel Canto. I'm a music major and I wrote the locations in the book in appreciation of that. The world and all of the cities and continents within that world have musical terms for names such as Lied, Canzone, and Cantare. I'm not worried in the least that the title is the same as an award winning novel. Copywrite law states that you can place a copywrite on a work, but not on the its title; otherwise there would be a lot of authors, artists, and musicians in trouble for using the same titles for books, songs, albums, landscapes, etc.

I wasn't suggesting you be concerned about copyright issues with the title, but about confusion in the marketplace. Sure, there are works with similar (or identical) titles out there - it can and does lead to confusion.

Captain Morgan · Apr 20, 2007

I'm currently about 40% finished with a novel entitled Bel Canto and in the first chapter I make a joking reference to the Dungeons and Dragons games and Final Fantasy games calling them Dungeon Dragoons and Never-Ending Fantasy 49.

How could that possibly be illegal? D&D is such a widespread name it practically counts as a monopoly. You don't see book authors or movies paying fees to use the word Coke do you?

Now if your work was non-fiction, and spent 200 pages informing the public how D&D is a very evil game and causes nothing but problems amoungst those who use it... then just maybe you could run into problems.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 20, 2007

infinitus_kaze said:
I'm not concerned by this at all. There are a lot of unrelated books out there with the same title. Off the top of my head I can think of "Castle in the Air" and "Castles in the Sky". I've named my book Bel Canto because the world in which the story takes place is called Bel Canto. I'm a music major and I wrote the locations in the book in appreciation of that. The world and all of the cities and continents within that world have musical terms for names such as Lied, Canzone, and Cantare. I'm not worried in the least that the title is the same as an award winning novel. Copywrite law states that you can place a copywrite on a work, but not on the its title; otherwise there would be a lot of authors, artists, and musicians in trouble for using the same titles for books, songs, albums, landscapes, etc.

You're right about titles and copyright, which in no way means a publisher will allow you to use a title that's already well-known and associated with another bestselling novel. In this case, they might, but I wouldn't count on it.

Devil Ledbetter · Apr 20, 2007

I used to do trademark protection letters for I company I worked for. They had a product with a weak tradename. If you misuse a trademark (write it in lowercase, as though it's generic) about the worst they can do is send you a letter and ask you not to do that again. Use it properly, and they'll be flattered -- unless you've slandered the product in some way.

wordmonkey · Apr 20, 2007

I have a running gag in my novel (linked below) about how bad a certain southern fried chicken franchise is. It's parody. And I tweaked the name to Kenturkee Fried Chicken. From the planet Kenturk.

I even did shirts on zazzle.com with a certain souther colonel replaced by a "grey" alien. Zazzle initially refused to do the shirt because they were worried about copyright/trademark issues. When I explained the context and the parody aspect, I had my shirts in the mail that day!

So I think you'd be OK. Especially if it's comedic.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 20, 2007

willietheshakes said:
I wasn't suggesting you be concerned about copyright issues with the title, but about confusion in the marketplace. Sure, there are works with similar (or identical) titles out there - it can and does lead to confusion.

I'm sorry. I must have misread your earlier post.

Jamesaritchie said:
You're right about titles and copyright, which in no way means a publisher will allow you to use a title that's already well-known and associated with another bestselling novel. In this case, they might, but I wouldn't count on it.

I'll cross that bridge when and if it comes.

Jan-Tosh · Apr 20, 2007

Don't worry, a publisher will make you change the title.

sassandgroove · Apr 20, 2007

infinitus_kaze said:
The main character in the story is obsessed with role-playing games and in the first paragraph I'm describing his room filled with Dungeon Dragoons role-playing books and every one of the Never-Ending Fantasy video games. Then I make reference to him currently playing Never-Ending Fantasy 49 and being nearly finished with it. They are just meant to be playful variations of the originals without any ill intent. I'm just not sure if it breaks any sort of copywrite laws.

The targeted demographic for this novel is RPG fans and the novel is in the spirit of an RPG with the MC being thrust into a world called Bel Canto where he has to train to get stronger, find magical items to help him in his quest, and defeat the enemy in order to rescue the princess and protect the citizens of Bel Canto. I think that RPG fans will get a little laugh out of the names and not care, but I'm worried about the actual companies having a problem with it. Of course, the story is far more indepth than the simple synopsis I gave, but the synopsis only explains the aspect of the story that I feel will make it appealing to RPG fans.

The only thing I have to contribute is that being married to a gamer who has lots of gamer friends, they have every D&D book, but they also have hundreds more RPG's that aren't D&D. If your target audience is RPG guys, and you have trouble with the D&D people, use another game reference. Or just say RPG. or say D&D in one line, and reveal the game they are talking about is Dukes&Demons. *wink wink.* I just pulled that out of the air, it could be better than that but you get the idea.
Also, having a refernce like that can date your book. I tried peppering my novel with pop culture references and it just came across as forced. I like some pop culture stuff, but other books I think are timeless because they don't have references. Just my thought. Good luck with your book.

mdin · Apr 20, 2007

Naming your book Bel Canto is like naming it The Kite Runner or Slaughterhouse-Five I don't think even PublishAmerica would let you keep that title, no matter how fitting it is. It is true that books share titles all the time, but in this case, the Ann Patchett version is a very popular, international bestseller. Titling it that will do you no favors, no matter how in love with the title you are.

herdon · Apr 20, 2007

I agree: Don't use the title of a famous book. A title is such an easy thing to change, and the only thing using a famous title will do is hurt you.

Claudia Gray · Apr 20, 2007

You're not in any legal trouble with either the parody names or the real ones. (Though others have pointed out the issue with Bel Canto.) My suggestion is to either use the real name or come up with even more outlandish parodies -- if your target audience is gamers, they'll get it.

infinitus_kaze · Apr 20, 2007

What if I were to keep the name Bel Canto in the title and add to it? I want Bel Canto to be part of the title because that is the name of the world where all the action takes place and is important to the plot, so what if I were to call the book something like Bel Canto: Enter the WASP Hunter? Just a random suggestion.

Note: WASPs (Weapon Armor Sentinel Protection) are the magical items that hunters (collectors) use to fight battles with.

Will Lavender · Apr 20, 2007

Patchett's Bel Canto was so ubiquitous in the bookstores. It was seemingly in front of my face every time I went in for about five solid years.

I agree with others: that title will probably be an issue somewhere down the line.

freshpencils · Apr 20, 2007

I think you mean "copyright," not "copywrite."

infinitus_kaze · Apr 20, 2007

Thank you. I hadn't realized that I was spelling copyright incorrectly because I wrote my posts in a hurry and didn't double-check them.

Is this illegal?

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