What type of higher education should a fiction writer pursue?

Who Watches the... · Dec 13, 2006

Can anyone elaborate on the difference between an english major with an emphasis on literature versus an english major with an emphasis on rhetoric versus a major in linguistics?

What's the opinion on MFAs? I hear they're highly selective.

smiley10000 · Dec 13, 2006

Being an English major will allow you to read and study the classics. This can be useful to a point, although people don't write the way they wrote 200 years ago...

Linguistics is the study of the construction of language. It is more the science of language and how it works. I have a BA in linguistics. Other than the grammar stuff. I don't believe it will really help you are a writer in any way. (although sociolinguistics deals with how people speak and use language. that may be interesting to pursue.)

I have heard MFA programs are a waste of money. I think it depends on the program you get into. But, that is graduate work. Are you looking for your first degree? I would recommend taking something of interest to 'expand your horizons' Take anthropology or philosophy or history. Something that can tell you about life. It will give you stuff to write about later on.

Miss. Snark recommended this site: Laura Lippman. She had some interesting comments on university and what to do.
Good Luck!

10000

ETA: I forgot to name my url (blush)

Deleted member 42 · Dec 13, 2006

The rhetoric emphasis is usually designed for people planning to teach. I think, speaking as a long term English Major (under grad through grad), I'd suggest literature, and do at least one class on rhetorical analysis or classic rhetoric, and try to take advantage of writing classes that are workshops in nature.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 13, 2006

English major

I majored in English Lit., but there was still a fair amount of rhetoric and linguistics study. The emphais simply changes, particular in the final two years.

All three teach grammar, but English Lit has a focus on reading and writing, and generally includes, or qualifies you for, advanced creative writing classes, and is a better lead in to an MFA. Some very good creative writing courses have a prerequisite of of an English Lit. major.

Like anything else, MFA programs range from horrible to wonderful, but they are getting better, and more and more MFA programs are placing an emphasis on real world writing and publishing, rather than the old emphasis of strictly "literary" writing that may not get you far.

An MFA program also stands you in good stead if you want to be an editor.

In my opinion, teh real value of a good English Lit. program is that you WILL read and study a ton of great literature, or you won't pass, and you will have opportunity to take some very useful creative writing courses, and you will spend a lot of time parking your butt in a chair and writing.

An MFA is something you'll decide on later, maybe in your junior year, and at that time you'll know far more about MFA programs, and whether you can find one right for you.

Matt Lipp · Dec 13, 2006

I'm focusing on English Literature right now, but I'm not sure if I'm going to grad school or law school.

CrankItTo11 · Dec 13, 2006

Study what you are passionate about... you'll find a way to incorporate it into your writing. I have an MS in Anthropology, which fed my fascination for people and prehistory.

PeeDee · Dec 13, 2006

I took English with a minor in Graphic Design.

Hell, take architecture if you want. Having an English degree doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help hugely, and no matter what you study it'll eventually wind up in your writing somewhere.

(Although I have yet to write a story with a graphic designer in it. How boring. He lined up the cut box, praying that he wasn't anti-aliasing the picture prematurely......)

greatfish · Dec 13, 2006

I would say that English Lit. would be the most useful emphasis for an English major who wants to write. It's unbelievably important for a writer to familiarize themselves with classic literature. You'd have a hard time pointing out a great writer who wasn't extremely familiar with his predecessors and the accomplishments they have made.
As for the value of the MFA program, the subject is hotly debated in the writing community and has been for some time. My personal experience with it is that it is mainly meant for writers who want to teach writing, and not for writers who are looking to improve their own writing. As one MFA student once phrased it to me, "The MFA program is where mediocre writers teach students how to write mediocre fiction so they can teach other students how to write mediocre fiction." Of course this is just one viewpoint. Like I said, the value of the MFA program is highly debated right now, mainly because the MFA is still relatively new. It's still too soon to tell if the great writers of tomorrow are going to be MFA graduates, but I wouldn't count on it.

C.bronco · Dec 13, 2006

Yep. Major in what you want, buy a copy of Strunk & White's The Elements of Style, read a lot and you'll be good to go.

Euan H. · Dec 13, 2006

Who Watches the... said:
Can anyone elaborate on the difference between an english major with an emphasis on literature versus an english major with an emphasis on rhetoric versus a major in linguistics?

I have an MA in Linguistics, and I'm working on a doctorate. Getting a degree in the field will probably not directly help you write fiction.

OTOH though, it probably will sensitize you to language in a way that most other majors won't, especially if you get a detailed look at discourse analysis or a functional grammar. I guess it could also be helpful if you are writing fantasy and you want to create a less-silly-than-usual fantasy language.

Namatu · Dec 13, 2006

I agree with CrankItTo11. Study what you're passionate about. I've always been interested in too many areas to select a master's program, but all of the reading I've done over the years in these areas definitely informs my writing. A degree program in one of those areas would be awesome. If only I could determine which one!

anodyne · Dec 13, 2006

I would say, study what you find interesting. The first two years of college are basically a chance to find out what does interest you. So go undeclared major, take the general education requirements, and if you still think English is the way to go, then do that.

Literature is fine, but just be aware that you'll have to read a lot of things that you don't particularly like, and a lot of those things are in the canon. There's nothing wrong with the canon, per se, at least from a non-theoretical standpoint.

That's another thing, literature majors are required to take several classes in theory, and then apply that theory to everything they write about literature. For many people, that's a deal-breaker (I majored in Lit minored in Theory, so your mileage may vary). I went on to earn my M.L.I.S.

However, during my undergrad I discovered that I adored Bio-chemistry, but I was already a third of my way through my lit degree, and decided to put it on hold. Probably not the best idea, B.A.s aren't exactly employable at the moment, luckily, M.L.I.S.s are.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 13, 2006

English degree

PeeDee said:
I took English with a minor in Graphic Design.

Hell, take architecture if you want. Having an English degree doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help hugely, and no matter what you study it'll eventually wind up in your writing somewhere.

(Although I have yet to write a story with a graphic designer in it. How boring. He lined up the cut box, praying that he wasn't anti-aliasing the picture prematurely......)

It always amazes me when I hear someone say a degree in English doesn't help hugely. It helps tremendously, at least a degree in English Lit. does.

Such a degree isn't a requirement, but it's astounding how many successful writers have such a degree. The percentage is pretty impressive, no matter how you look at it.

And if you don't get such a degree, you're probably still going to have to learn everything someone with such a degree knows, and you're still going to have to read nearly all teh books someone with such a degree reads, and you're going to have to spend as much time writing as someone with such a degree writes.

This is darned difficult to do when you spending the majority of your time getting a degree where reading and writing aren't requirements.

PeeDee · Dec 13, 2006

Not if you enjoy it.

And by "doesn't help hugely," I meant that it's not going to magically make you publishable, or a good writer. It will certainly help you on your way more than getting an advanced degree in spot welding.

It helps the same way writer's workshops help: It gives you a reason to focus on this subject, which does take a fair amount of focus. It gives you an excuse to read good books, something I'm always in favor of.

Anonymisty · Dec 13, 2006

I graduated with a Bachelor's in Modern Languages (French, Spanish and German) and a minor in Philosophy and Religion.

I often joke that I write now because I couldn't get a job doing anything else. *grin*

JimmyB27 · Dec 13, 2006

greatfish said:
It's unbelievably important for a writer to familiarize themselves with classic literature.

I have to disagree. I think it's far, far more important to familiarise yourself with contemporary literature.
If you're training to be a doctor, you don't learn about leech application, if you're training to be a soldier, you don't learn musketry drills.

PeeDee · Dec 13, 2006

JimmyB27 said:
I have to disagree. I think it's far, far more important to familiarise yourself with contemporary literature.
If you're training to be a doctor, you don't learn about leech application, if you're training to be a soldier, you don't learn musketry drills.

True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading John Steinback, Charles Dickens, Daniel Pinkwater, William Shakespear, and the other classics...

JimmyB27 · Dec 13, 2006

PeeDee said:
True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading John Steinback, Charles Dickens, Daniel Pinkwater, William Shakespear, and the other classics...

True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading Iain Banks, Terry Pratchett, Robin Hobb, John Irving and the other contemporaries.

I just think that there's this kind of snobbery surrounding the so called classics, and they are too often simply assumed to be inherently better than anything written more recently.

PeeDee · Dec 13, 2006

JimmyB27 said:
True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading Iain Banks, Terry Pratchett, Robin Hobb, John Irving and the other contemporaries.

I just think that there's this kind of snobbery surrounding the so called classics, and they are too often simply assumed to be inherently better than anything written more recently.

I didn't say you shouldn't read Terry Pratchett, Robin Hobb, et al.. I said you should also read the classics. If you intend to write, then you should be reading everything with words on it anyway.

Sassenach · Dec 13, 2006

How did Daniel Pinkwater end up between Dickens and Shakepeare??

PeeDee · Dec 13, 2006

Because I'm reading Chicago Days & Hobo Nights, enjoying it immensely, and wondered if anyone would notice if I stuck his name there.

maestrowork · Dec 13, 2006

I'm a practical person. I went to college for computers. But I took creative writing classes.

Deleted member 42 · Dec 13, 2006

JimmyB27 said:
I have to disagree. I think it's far, far more important to familiarise yourself with contemporary literature.

It's not an either / or thing. Both are important. The "classics" have shaped English. I would encourage reading all kinds of text, the King James Bible, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, and classic novels and lots of poetry (even if you don't write poetry, poets are magic) and scads of popular or genre fiction and lots of non fiction too -- read widely, and thoughtfully.

NeuroFizz · Dec 13, 2006

The most important lessons learned in a college education are lessons about you, the person; how you handle the responsibilities (personal responsibility, discipline, personal interactions in a diverse environment, etc.) and balance them with the freedom of post-high school education. This doesn't mean that high school students can't learn the same lessons, but the freedom and distractions, plus the added years of burgeoning adulthood add to a (potentially) more enriched experience from college. Most high school educated individuals get these same lessons from work and the non-college freedom. The good thing about college is one can back up this with a plethora of instructional offerings and an opportunity to specialize in an area of interest. Does it matter what one chooses as a major? There may be helpful majors for a future writer, but I think one can major in anything a still derive the personal benefits that underlie a productive individual (in writing or in other occupations). What we learn most in our college years is about ourselves. This specific personal growth may provide no advantage, however, over those who do not attend college, but rather jump right into the responsibilities of the real working world. In either case, this personal leaning should last a lifetime.

anodyne · Dec 13, 2006

Yes, you learn that the great mercenaries of the past are the ones that are still read today.

Remember, Shakespeare was "soaps" and Dickens was a newspaper column, like "How to Play Bridge" so...

I don't know, it's important to know the stories. Shakespeare is a good way to acheive that, since he paid homage (stole) so many classic stories. Why is it important to read the classics? Because they're what we can glean the metastories of western society from. I mean, look at our television and movies. A good exercise is to go through them and go, "This came from Taming of the Shrew" and "this came from the Odyssey" or what not. The whole maxim that there's nothing new under the sun... well, yeah, it's kind of true.

But, I don't think you need structured education to get that background. In fact, I think in many cases its detrimental. The canon is great if you stumble on it, but not so great if you're tested on it. If you want exposure to the classics, just google a few lesson plans and follow them. Discuss the books with other people who've read them, use google scholar to find some articles about them.

All education is self-education.

What type of higher education should a fiction writer pursue?

Who Watches the...

smiley10000

What do we do? We write...

Deleted member 42

Jamesaritchie

Matt Lipp

CrankItTo11

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

greatfish

C.bronco

I have plans...

Euan H.

Unspeakable

Namatu

Lost in mental space.

anodyne

Jamesaritchie

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

Anonymisty

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

Sassenach

5 W's & an H

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Deleted member 42

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

anodyne