Hypothetical Question. . .

OverTheHills&FarAway · Dec 12, 2006

. . . that isn't that hypothetical, since the answer will determin whether or not I bother with this story.

Say you're reading a novel, told from the point of view of two people, one star each chapter. Would you be angry if one of these people kills herself halfway through? Would you feel cheated? Her death was meaningless, much like her life, but it means a lot to the other character, whose life is now considerably less fun. It is a significant turn of events. But one point of view character is still dead, and there is a lot more narrative to go.

Also, if I do write this story, where the heck can I learn about the inner workings of terrorist factions, prisoners of war, and the daily lives of British royalty?

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Dec 12, 2006

I think it would be a hell of a twist. It wouldn't make me angry, or make me feel cheated. I'd be more 'I can't believe it!'... or maybe I'd be expecting it, to some degree, based on what's revealed in chapters leading up to the suicide.

Can't help much with the inner workings of terrorist factions, but British royals (Tudor era, specifically) have been a great interest of mine. I yahooed 'Lives of the Royals' and got these hits - some look promising. I bet googling or yahooing 'prisoners of war' would get bunches, too. Good luck!

Cath · Dec 12, 2006

I agree with OFG, it would be one hell of a twist.

Just one question - how involved do you want the reader to be with that character? Do you want them to feel a physical sense of loss at that character's death and does that sense of loss actively contribute to the rest of the story.

I'd say do it if you have good justification for it. But be aware why you're doing it and what impact you have on the reader by doing it that way. I think the one thing you can't afford to lose is the reader's trust.

IrishScribbler · Dec 12, 2006

I may be angry if I care about the character, but something like that may be exactly what the other character needs.

I see your dilemma regarding the dead perspective (literally and figuratively), but think about how you can use it to your advantage.

Would it be plausible to have the dead character's perspective after death? Perhaps that would contribute to her character, and could reveal another side of the relationship between the two.

Would it be plausible to introduce a new character to fill the role of the dead character? Perhaps this new character C is as important to character B as character A was to character B. (Does that make sense?)

Then again, maybe the void left by the lack of second perspective could be a good way to show the void left by the lack of character within the story. This may be cheesy and amateurish (play with it, if you want), but you could even go so far as to leave a blank page between the chapters where the dead character's narrative would be.

Just suggestions...take them, leave them, call them idiotic, but there they are.

Akuma · Dec 12, 2006

I can't say how I would take it...just be sure to let your readers clearly know that this chapter is from so-and-so's POV and that chapter is from so-and-so's POV.
I remember reading a confusing book back in fifth grade, only realizing near the end that every chapter circulated to a different character. (I think there were about 4 or 5 characters, so, yeah...)

And be sure this POV thing is essential to the plot. Would the suicide be less powerful if the story is told in 3rd person?

TrickyFiction · Dec 12, 2006

Remember the movie Scream? What do you remember most about that movie? I don't know about you, but I mostly remember Drew Barrymore's role, or lack thereof.

If you do it right, it will be a good slap in the face to the complacent reader. When I read a book (or watch a film) complacently, there's nothing I like better than getting slapped in the face... preferably by something cold... and spiky.

OverTheHills&FarAway · Dec 12, 2006

Hey, replies!

I want to show loss. The first character, the one who survives to the end of the story, ends up the prisoner of the suicidal character. But he comes to depend on her so much for everything (as he's blindfolded and tied to a chair) that her suicide in front of him is at once disturbing and liberating. Plus, she's a nice girl, just a little misguided. Someone the reader could like. Her hostage certainly does. He might even love her. That "physical sense of lost" is what kicks him into changing his ways and his entire view of the world. And, having her a POV character would make the death more meaningful and help the reader understand what it's like for the other character to lose her, so much more so than trying to merely describe his pain.

And I thought about replacing her with a new character, but she seems irreplacable.

Willowmound · Dec 12, 2006

It has been said, readers hate surprises but love being surprised.

If you intend to kill a main POV character, be sure to tell the reader well in advance -- but tell the reader in a way that he doesn't realise he's been told until it happens.

That way he will get to be surprised without getting a surprise.

Foreshadowing is your friend.

BruceJ · Dec 13, 2006

I'd take a chance on it. (I know, easy for me to say...) It sounds pretty interesting.

Just a caution, though. If you're going to research terrorist cells on the Internet, be careful which Web sites you visit. You could be tagged. There are a bunch of good books out there on the subject, though.

PeeDee · Dec 13, 2006

After you're tagged by the government for checking out terrorist web-sites, don't come back to AW. We can't have the government coming here and discovering Our Ultra Master Plan.

The character's death may be meaningless all by itself, but if it affects the other character, then it's not at all meaningless. I would have no problem with it. In fact, I think it's a good idea.

greatfish · Dec 13, 2006

Different people are going to like different things out of writing. Some people are going to be turned off by it, but others are really going to be into that kind of idea.

Azure Skye · Dec 13, 2006

I would probably would go through these stages:

1. Shock
2. Cry
3. Throw book across the room at the wall
4. Go for a walk
5. Come back and finish the book

It sounds like an interesting twist and one that I would love. It seems rather tricky though. I can see it bombing if not handled well.

C.bronco · Dec 13, 2006

You could get some good resources about war stuff from the "Story Research" board on AW.

BruceJ · Dec 13, 2006

PeeDee said:
After you're tagged by the government for checking out terrorist web-sites, don't come back to AW. We can't have the government coming here and discovering Our Ultra Master Plan.

I thought that might get a comment or two. Figures it would come from you, PeeDee.

Long live the Ultra Master Plan!

greglondon · Dec 13, 2006

Writing the point of view of a suicidal character in such a way that your average non-suicidal reader will empathize is not something I've mastered yet.

I have a character in my novel who kills himself in a suicide bombing. The protaganist is his friend at one point, and then the protag leaves the area for a job. A year after that, the friend blows himself up. The friendship is always written from the protaganist point of view. The protag is more "normal" so I figure more readers can identify. He sees the friend as fighting depression and outbursts of anger, but it isn't written from the friends poitn of view. Because writing that level of raw emotion so that people get it isn't something I've mastered yet.

The only time I go to the friend's point of view is the scene where he blows himself up.

If you can write the suicide character's point of view so that people get where they are coming from, and if the protag has their own story to resolve after the suicide, then go for it.

Your beta readers will tell you if it works.

Sean D. Schaffer · Dec 13, 2006

OverTheHills&FarAway said:
. . . that isn't that hypothetical, since the answer will determin whether or not I bother with this story.

Say you're reading a novel, told from the point of view of two people, one star each chapter. Would you be angry if one of these people kills herself halfway through? Would you feel cheated? Her death was meaningless, much like her life, but it means a lot to the other character, whose life is now considerably less fun. It is a significant turn of events. But one point of view character is still dead, and there is a lot more narrative to go.

...Snipped.

Hmmm,

I seem to remember a movie in which Bill Cosby played an ambulance driver. His partner in the ambulance was killed part-way through the movie by a psychotic individual with a shotgun. I remember how I felt when I saw that scene, and after that scene, the movie kind of fell apart for me. I didn't want to see the rest of it, because one of the main characters had been literally blown away. In my own estimation, I think the character taking her own life would probably be detrimental to the story, even if it is meant to convey a message to the other main character.

But this is only my personal opinion. I'm sure there will be countless people who will disagree with my take on this. I suppose what really matters is how the story demands to be told. Even though I as a reader would probably find it disturbing, I would also recommend that you go ahead and write the story however it needs to be told. Then you can read it for yourself and see if you like the idea, or if you despise it.

That would be my suggestion. I hope it helps.

Namatu · Dec 13, 2006

It sounds interesting and worth a try. There are many good books out there on terrorism and terror cells, and I'm sure also on prisoners of war and the psychological implications of being one. It also sounds like you should look up Stockholm Syndrome and Patty Hearst!

sfecphory · Dec 13, 2006

great minds... and all that.

IrishScribbler said:
Would it be plausible to have the dead character's perspective after death? Perhaps that would contribute to her character, and could reveal another side of the relationship between the two.

...

.

Like IrishScribbler my first thought was "why would the POV need to end for the dead character?" It might be very compelling and touching for it to continue past death.

It's also interesting to think of your question in more general terms: Do you feel cheated when a character in a book does something you don't want them to do? I certainly don't and that might include everything from suicide or murder, all the way to stealing a doughnut or kissing the neighbor's horse.

In the end, I say follow your interest in telling the story and see how it works out.

Simon Woodhouse · Dec 13, 2006

OverTheHills&FarAway said:
Would you feel cheated?

I'd only feel cheated if I cared about her as a character. If I didn't, it wouldn't make any difference to me. At the other end of the scale, if I didn't like her I'd probably be glad she was out the picture, though still sorry she committed suicide.

Most people I've ever spoken to about suicide seem to think it's a selfish act. So after your character has done it, readers might start to think about her in a different light. Personally, I think committing suicide is quite a brave thing to do, but that's a whole other debate.

JerseyGirl1962 · Dec 13, 2006

OverTheHills&FarAway said:
Say you're reading a novel, told from the point of view of two people, one star each chapter. Would you be angry if one of these people kills herself halfway through? Would you feel cheated? Her death was meaningless, much like her life, but it means a lot to the other character, whose life is now considerably less fun. It is a significant turn of events. But one point of view character is still dead, and there is a lot more narrative to go.

Have you ever seen the movie Sunset Boulevard? It's told from the perspective of a dead guy. (I believe the opening scene has his lifeless body floating in the pool, if I remember correctly.) I saw it a couple of months ago, and it was fascinating to see how he (William Holden) bought it.

The thing is...the writing was so well done, that I was willing to suspend my disbelief for the entire movie (besides getting over the initial shock).

I wouldn't feel cheated if the story was well written.

Good luck!

~Nancy

Melanie Nilles · Dec 13, 2006

As others have said, it could work well if done right. There are no set-in-stone rules that must be followed or you're toast when it comes to plots, but there are ways to make things happen that can turn off a reader to suck them in further. Just be careful how you prepare the reader for the "surprise".

Oh, and if you're looking for war information, trying Baen's Bar (bar.baen.com). Many of the best military/sf writers they publish are in the military and have experience. You'd get first-hand info. I'd recommend starting with John Ringo.

Melanie

dmytryp · Dec 13, 2006

OverTheHills&FarAway said:
. . . that isn't that hypothetical, since the answer will determin whether or not I bother with this story.

Say you're reading a novel, told from the point of view of two people, one star each chapter. Would you be angry if one of these people kills herself halfway through? Would you feel cheated? Her death was meaningless, much like her life, but it means a lot to the other character, whose life is now considerably less fun. It is a significant turn of events. But one point of view character is still dead, and there is a lot more narrative to go.

George Martin in his "Song of Ice and Fire" series writes each chapter with a different pov, and kills his characters very often.

Hypothetical Question. . .

OverTheHills&FarAway

McNifico

Ol' Fashioned Girl

Hand? What hand?

Cath

The mean one

IrishScribbler

Akuma

Rare Writer Pokemon

TrickyFiction

Who?

OverTheHills&FarAway

McNifico

Willowmound

Lightly salted

BruceJ

Me and my Muse

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

greatfish

Azure Skye

Huh?

C.bronco

I have plans...

BruceJ

Me and my Muse

greglondon

Planet Wookie techno geek

Sean D. Schaffer

Namatu

Lost in mental space.

sfecphory

Simon Woodhouse

JerseyGirl1962

I heart Malamutes! :-)

Melanie Nilles

What're you looking at?

dmytryp