Paralyzing Writers.

PeeDee · Dec 7, 2006

First, I'd like to get something clear: I'm not condemning, complaining, or rebelling against. I'm just musing out loud.

There.

Now. It seems to me that, in many many ways, the internet has not been a good thing for writers, especially young and learning writers whose bones haven't quite hardened all the way yet.

Other writers have commented on this. Specifically, I'm thinking of Harlan Ellison, who pointed out that the internet is full of no end of misinformation and has no real method for seperating the pap from the chaff. This is true, to an extent. Wikipedia is useful, right up to the point when it's not.

That's not my point, though, that's is and I'll leave him to it. My point is this:

I notice more and more that young writers are not worrying about whether or not their stories are good (well, they worry about that too) but are beginning to inject words like supposed to and is this okay to do? into their posts.

I don't just mean here, either. I just had a submission for BBT which had the line I wrote this in first person. I hope that's okay in it, and it made me realize that young authors are beginning to get unwilling to experiment.

Beta readers, head-hopping, outlining, NOT outlining, editing, revising, traditional publishing, print on demand publishing, critique group, paid editors, self promotion, butt-in-chair...

The internet is so full of information for what writers should do and shoulnd't do (much of it stated less as a command and more as sensible advice) but as a certain point, when a young writer, does this become so overpressuring -- like the well-meaning advice of a parent who cares deeply, but is always right there -- that the young writer becomes too afraid to do something really strange and wild and possibly creative (also possibly crap) for fear of breaking a rule, or offending the writerly community?

When I was a young writer, the internet hadn't occured to me as something related to my writing. I wrote, sometimes for me and sometimes for readers, but mostly I just wrote quietly and alone. I didn't know that there were books on the subject of writing until I've been dilligently been trying things for two years or so. The internet came even later than that.

By the time I had terms like those I listed above (beta reader, critique, etc.) in my head, I had already established myself as a writer, in my own head if nowhere else. By the time these ideas were presented to me, I could hold them up against where I already stood as a writer and decide if they meshed well or not.

(Some of them did; some of them were wonderful. Our own preyer gave me a useful piece of advice a year or two ago that's been indispensible to me.)

I'm casting no rights or wrongs here. I'm happy for the internet, and happy for my little community here. I'm just wondering if it's perhaps not going to be a good thing for a young generation of budding writers. I'm wondering if it's going to paralyze them. That's all.

(edited to add: It occurs to me that this perhaps belongs more in the Writer's Roundtable than this novel's forum. Or perhaps not.)

MidnightMuse · Dec 7, 2006

PeeDee said:
When Iwas a young writer, the internet hadn't occured to me as something related to my writing.

When I was a young writer, the internet wasn't around. (well, okay, I don't know when "Al Gore invented it"

but still . . .) And I'll say that I think, for me, that was a good thing.

I don't know about those who have had this invention all of their writing lives, but I can see how it might have done more harm than good to my own mentality.

Although, that said, I've grown more and learned much since coming here.

Carrie in PA · Dec 7, 2006

*blink blink*

When I was young (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) computers weren't even a common item. I didn't even touch one of the frightful beasts until high school.

Anyway. I don't think it's the internet. And I'm not so sure it's youth. People as a whole are getting lazy and expecting someone else to fix [whatever].

RTH · Dec 7, 2006

Certainly.

It took me at least 6 or 7 years of writing to get to the internet, and I only got there once I began to think about getting stuff published. Even now I consider it more of a networking (and procrastinating!

)vehicle than a place to learn about writing per se.

I do that by reading and writing and reading and writing.

This IS a great community, and I've learned a ton about the business here, but by and large writing is a lonely pursuit.

I wonder if the new writers who put "Is this OK?" in their query letters are trying more to seek approval or validation, rather than just exposing themselves to the market (a.k.a. Mr. Nasty Rejection-Monster). Not that we don't all want approval, but you know what I mean...

Zolah · Dec 7, 2006

PeeDee said:
First, I'd like to get something clear: I'm not condemning, complaining, or rebelling against. I'm just musing out loud.

There.

Now. It seems to me that, in many many ways, the internet has not been a good thing for writers, especially young and learning writers whose bones haven't quite hardened all the way yet.

Other writers have commented on this. Specifically, I'm thinking of Harlan Ellison, who pointed out that the internet is full of no end of misinformation and has no real method for seperating the pap from the chaff. This is true, to an extent. Wikipedia is useful, right up to the point when it's not.

That's not my point, though, that's is and I'll leave him to it. My point is this:

I notice more and more that young writers are not worrying about whether or not their stories are good (well, they worry about that too) but are beginning to inject words like supposed to and is this okay to do? into their posts.

I don't just mean here, either. I just had a submission for BBT which had the line I wrote this in first person. I hope that's okay in it, and it made me realize that young authors are beginning to get unwilling to experiment.

Beta readers, head-hopping, outlining, NOT outlining, editing, revising, traditional publishing, print on demand publishing, critique group, paid editors, self promotion, butt-in-chair...

The internet is so full of information for what writers should do and shoulnd't do (much of it stated less as a command and more as sensible advice) but as a certain point, when a young writer, does this become so overpressuring -- like the well-meaning advice of a parent who cares deeply, but is always right there -- that the young writer becomes too afraid to do something really strange and wild and possibly creative (also possibly crap) for fear of breaking a rule, or offending the writerly community?

When I was a young writer, the internet hadn't occured to me as something related to my writing. I wrote, sometimes for me and sometimes for readers, but mostly I just wrote quietly and alone. I didn't know that there were books on the subject of writing until I've been dilligently been trying things for two years or so. The internet came even later than that.

By the time I had terms like those I listed above (beta reader, critique, etc.) in my head, I had already established myself as a writer, in my own head if nowhere else. By the time these ideas were presented to me, I could hold them up against where I already stood as a writer and decide if they meshed well or not.

(Some of them did; some of them were wonderful. Our own preyer gave me a useful piece of advice a year or two ago that's been indispensible to me.)

I'm casting no rights or wrongs here. I'm happy for the internet, and happy for my little community here. I'm just wondering if it's perhaps not going to be a good thing for a young generation of budding writers. I'm wondering if it's going to paralyze them. That's all.

(edited to add: It occurs to me that this perhaps belongs more in the Writer's Roundtable than this novel's forum. Or perhaps not.)

Well, for what it's worth, I think you may be right. Everywhere I see enthusiastic young writers asking: Should I do this? Or, Will this work? Or, Will this get me rejected? And a million and one people and their fathers seem to jump in to reply: NO! No, my child! Never use prologues, dream sequences, flashbacks, never head-hop or try anything strange and new! You'll never get published! Editors don't like that! Readers won't read that! It frightens me the type of books these young people will write. How will they LEARN to get things right if they're never allowed to experiment, make mistakes, get things WRONG. I just see this endless stream of perfectly presented manuscripts arriving at publishers containing stories which are bloodless, bland, boring and most of all frightened. These books may contain no wild bits, no silly errors, no misconceived ideas or badly used devices, but they will also contain very little life. What kind of advice would James Joyce receive if he was asking on the internet today? Probably to shape up, use proper punctuation and stop being such a silly little boy if he wanted to get published (because publishing is a business, you know!). How sad.

CrankItTo11 · Dec 7, 2006

This is an interesting post with some interesting points.

I see your point about new writer’s feeling them must stay within certain rules of writing. I think, however, that it is the nature of artists to rebel. Fearlessly breaking the rules once one understands the established rules is all part of an artist’s journey, right? (Wow. That sounded cheesy.)

Yes, the information on the Internet is readily available to most writers (young and old) and the sheer volume of information available online means even more misinformation... However, contradictory and misleading information is available in all formats – Internet, books, magazines, writers’ groups, classes, etc.

WildScribe · Dec 7, 2006

I think that young writers were always afraid of doing something wrong, but since there was no internet out there to tell them what was wrong or right, they had to teach themselves. I'm 20 (not very much older than the internet) but I have always taken writing advice with a grain of salt. (Not to say that I don't listen, but I usually seek a second opinion, too.)

I think that I mostly learned to write through loving to read. I try to emulate (to a point) the things that I love best in other writers. But you're right, for people somewhat less secure than myself, the internet can become a terrible crutch.

RG570 · Dec 7, 2006

I guess I'm probably one of these young writers. When I started writing seriously, which is really not that long ago, the internet was a huge crutch. It probably still is to some extent.

There are a few things I wanted to try but haven't simply because of what I read on here. Then I read, say, a Margaret Atwood novel, and it blows away every consensus I've read on the internets, and it's really good.

It really is quite confusing at times. It's especially hard to read a site like tvtropes.org, where it categorizes and names every possible plot and story device and character. In some ways it's good because I know what's been done, but in the end it is quite paralyzing in some ways.

Simon Woodhouse · Dec 7, 2006

I didn't start writing until later in life, and I've only been at it for five years. The internet has been there the whole time.

When I first started writing, I read somewhere that it's better to only read one book on how to write (it was probably in that very book). The author went on to explain that too much information on all the 'ins and outs' of writing can muddy the water. You'd end up writing in a very sterile, almost lifeless way. I've always kept that bit of advice in mind, especially when reading 'advice' on internet forums.

I've noticed that what may seem like advice is actually opinion. If person A dislikes head hopping, they'll present their case against it as if they're stating facts. But it's just an opinion.

If young writers (or any writer come to that), writes only according to the rules, that's ok as long as it doesn't stifle their creativity. But if you do break some of the writing rules, you've got to be prepared for people to tell you so. However, theirs is only an opinion, not a commandment chiselled in stone.

limitedtimeauthor · Dec 7, 2006

Yes! Pee Dee. It stymies me. I feel a persistent urgency to read everything everywhere before I commit a word to my document, lest I - unknowing - commit unpardonable sins. It's aggravating!

And I'm not a young writer.

ltd.

RTH · Dec 7, 2006

RG570 said:
There are a few things I wanted to try but haven't simply because of what I read on here. Then I read, say, a Margaret Atwood novel, and it blows away every consensus I've read on the internets, and it's really good.

At the risk of offending everyone present, it's probably far better to emulate renowned, brilliant, influential authors like Margaret Atwood than to do what a bunch of procrastinators on the internet say. :tongue

Higgins · Dec 7, 2006

It's not the internet

Zolah said:
Well, for what it's worth, I think you may be right. Everywhere I see enthusiastic young writers asking: Should I do this? Or, Will this work? Or, Will this get me rejected? And a million and one people and their fathers seem to jump in to reply: NO! No, my child! Never use prologues, dream sequences, flashbacks, never head-hop or try anything strange and new! You'll never get published! Editors don't like that! Readers won't read that! It frightens me the type of books these young people will write. How will they LEARN to get things right if they're never allowed to experiment, make mistakes, get things WRONG. I just see this endless stream of perfectly presented manuscripts arriving at publishers containing stories which are bloodless, bland, boring and most of all frightened. These books may contain no wild bits, no silly errors, no misconceived ideas or badly used devices, but they will also contain very little life. What kind of advice would James Joyce receive if he was asking on the internet today? Probably to shape up, use proper punctuation and stop being such a silly little boy if he wanted to get published (because publishing is a business, you know!). How sad.

It's crate-of-writing classes and their crazy standards. If you write so as not to violate any standards, you write so as to generate featureless prose (with no adverbs and no adjectives...for example always showing{ which is insane }). I'm not suggesting that people should not have standards, but that they should develop them based on possibilities and effects not on externally trumped up generalized verbiage that claims to guarantee something or other and is guaranteed by some other indefinite something or other.

Diviner · Dec 7, 2006

I assume that writers write because of a fire in the gut. Anyone who lets a bunch of opinions diminish that fire won't burn brightly enough anyway. That said, much of what is said in chat rooms, especially the critiques, gives a writer a chance to see the work from beyond their own perspective. We know, more or less, how we think or feel, but we can't always know how we come across or what our words actually communicate to others. It serves as both a broader view and a bolstering. If a writing hopeful is beaten down by all this and smooths into some kind of conformity, chances are that person's writing burns not so much in his/her gut but is more of an ego trip or an innocent wish to see themselves published.

Writers write. The net helps them to communicate. Any lack of originality we may see in print likely has as much to do with publishers wishing to sell books as it does to any kind of influence on the net.

PeeDee · Dec 7, 2006

See, and that's part of my point. When I was a young warthog, I learned my writing by reading books that I loved, and then writing like them, or writing similar to them. Eventually, this turns into a stew and out of that eventually comes a writing voice.

But I was doing this for a lot of years before I came onto the internet. Even when I WAS aware of the internet as a place for writing, I was using it for quite some time before I stumbled upon a group of writers.

Supposing you're a young writer who, with fifty or so friends, wrote fan-fiction for years (I knew a number of people who did, back int he day) and eventually, you all try to write "real" fiction, only to find yourself hideously outclassed. It's because during your formative years, you've been feeding off each other's fanfiction work instead of the works of published authors.

....or, they're trying to write like a movie looks.

....or write like a video game plays.

I'm not advocating any particular argument here, I'm really not. This has just been bothering me all week, and I wanted to say something about it. It's just that so many times, when I see the questions of young writers, I want to throw my hands up in frustration and say Just write! Just write whatever you have in your head, and your heart, and go from there!

...

This is NOT to say that you, dearest young writer who may be reading this, should stop asking questions and learning. whether you're reading books or reading the internet, you're reading and you're learning, and that's important. Since you're here, you may as well improve your writing, right? Please don't let a thread like this startle or discourage you.

greglondon · Dec 7, 2006

It's called "analysis paralysis" and it isn't limited to internet connectees.

folks who get so wound up into "am I doing this right?" that they stop doing anything at all are not limited to writers, either.

I'd say it's a function of being human and people just need to be aware that its part of our firmware and we may need to upgrade our code from time to time.

badducky · Dec 7, 2006

You're forgetting the use of the internet in protecting young writers by giving everyone with library that has a computer in it the ability to visit preditors and editors and writer beware and... Absolute Write!

Honestly, if it wasn't the internet, it'd be something else. It hasn't affected me quite nearly as much as it has helped me. 1) Researching markets -- hey, I guess they aren't a *traditional* publisher after all! 2) Meeting other writers -- hello, by the way, to all of you -- outside of my little corner of the world. 3) Researching wild, zany things from experts in the field via stuff like the Jstor and websites beyond wikipedia. 4) having a mildly productive way to rest my head between coffee pots instead of just pacing nervously and/or eating chocolate due to numbers 1-3.

This reminds me... Time to research me some markets!

Bufty · Dec 7, 2006

I'm neither a young writer nor a seasoned one -in terms of writing novels - but to me the biggest danger in the Internet is the anonymity and the ability of every Tom, Dick and Harry (and Bufty) to spout as an expert on everything without being answerable to anyone.

If I read a post littered with Do's and Don'ts as opposed to opinions, I check up on who posted it and if I can't find out, chances are I won't attach too much weight to it. And opinions I treat as such - opinions.

Bad advice and information on everything is available everywhere, it's simply more accessible on the Net, but I suspect someone who is seriously interested in writing and has a degree of talent will soon spot when they are receiving duff advice. And on a site like this -the duff advice givers are also soon spotted and corrected. I can't see it stifling genuine creativity or experimentation.

PeeDee · Dec 7, 2006

badducky said:
You're forgetting the use of the internet in protecting young writers by giving everyone with library that has a computer in it the ability to visit preditors and editors and writer beware and... Absolute Write!

I'm not forgetting or slighting them at all. I'm all in favor of them, and mostly of the internet. I'm just suggesting that the internet is perhaps atrophying certain parts of a young writer's growing experience.

It's like getting a vaccine which doesn't lead to you devleoping a stronger immune system...which is a crude analogy, but the best I've got.

Amiton · Dec 7, 2006

PeeDee said:
This is NOT to say that you, dearest young writer who may be reading this, should stop asking questions and learning. whether you're reading books or reading the internet, you're reading and you're learning, and that's important. Since you're here, you may as well improve your writing, right? Please don't let a thread like this startle or discourage you.

I was so tempted to say something snarky in response to this, especially given its personalized message and its unPeeDee-likeness (??!?!?). It just felt wrong...but at the same time it felt right.

What would PeeDee do? (WWPDD)

Amiton.

Pisarz · Dec 7, 2006

PeeDee, I can identify with what you say. I've revised many parts of my manuscript because I've come across a "DON'T" that sadly, I already "DID" (and sent--gasp!--to an agent). While I am eternally grateful for the superb advice, facts, and opinions offered on AW, agent blogs, and elsewhere, I'd be kidding if I said it doesn't sometimes lead to "paralysis of analysis" (as my husband calls it). I haven't broken any major rules of writing, but every now and then I come across an unexpected DON'T regarding some minor element of my writing. Given that I am an unproven, unpubbed newbie with varying degrees of confidence (depending on rejection/requests/partials/fulls and combinations thereof), such rules can make a novice wonder interminably whether or not it was "OK" to do something.

As in everything else, balance is key. Heeding advice, sorting out the good from the bad, and making reasonable applications of it are all part of the game. What I, as a newbie, am trying to decipher is which rules can be bent, which can be broken, and which are just short of sacred.

PeeDee · Dec 7, 2006

Bufty said:
I'm neither a young writer nor a seasoned one -in terms of writing novels - but to me the biggest danger in the Internet is the anonymity and the ability of every Tom, Dick and Harry (and Bufty) to spout as an expert on everything without being answerable to anyone.

I agree with that. It's why I've always got my name at the bottom of my posts.

Click to expand...

farfromfearless · Dec 7, 2006

I think this issue has more to do with current educational standards and behaviors associated with introducing the internet as a classroom tool, rather than relying on actually teaching. That is not to say that teachers do not teach -- quite the contrary -- nor does that mean that students do not learn. It is more a case of not learning enough and falling back on a crutch. It is easy to go to a website for reference; it is easy to copy and paste; it is easy to follow the mistakes of others an believe they are correct. I am not immune to this - so few of us are these days, but I am aware and that is the difference between many devoted (I hesitate to say good or experienced) writers and the cruft of young writers who want, but do not take the time to truly learn. You have to learn to walk before you can run.

PeeDee · Dec 7, 2006

It's like using a calculator instead of doing the math physically in your head, or on paper. Eventually, the skill stagnates, because it's unused.

Likewise, I think that there is perhaps a young writer who, when he fails to find what he needs through Google, does not think to use an encyclopedia. I worry that one of these days, I will do a book full of "obscure facts that no one can find," because I got them out of a book on my shelf instead of off the internet.

Amiton · Dec 7, 2006

Pisarz said:
PeeDee, I can identify with what you say. I've revised many parts of my manuscript because I've come across a "DON'T" that sadly, I already "DID" (and sent--gasp!--to an agent). While I am eternally grateful for the superb advice, facts, and opinions offered on AW, agent blogs, and elsewhere, I'd be kidding if I said it doesn't sometimes lead to "paralysis of analysis" (as my husband calls it). I haven't broken any major rules of writing, but every now and then I come across an unexpected DON'T regarding some minor element of my writing. Given that I am an unproven, unpubbed newbie with varying degrees of confidence (depending on rejection/requests/partials/fulls and combinations thereof), such rules can make a novice wonder interminably whether or not it was "OK" to do something.

As in everything else, balance is key. Heeding advice, sorting out the good from the bad, and making reasonable applications of it are all part of the game. What I, as a newbie, am trying to decipher is which rules can be bent, which can be broken, and which are just short of sacred.

Herein lies the beauty of the Internet amongst all its evils. If we can keep a narrow focus and happen across a treasure such as AW, then we can be better for it. Like all things subsidiary to the master web, AW has its subset of overwhelming advice and overprotective parents, and we can use those tools to grow. Only we'll have a little bit of supervision in our little microcosm.

It's not all rainclouds and sinkholes.

Amiton.

Akuma · Dec 7, 2006

As a young writer, I'm reasonably lucky to have been taught the free side and experimental side of writing. Before that, I didn't have much faith in my craft.

So, yeah, I'm not afraid of writing and not desperate for every opinion on the forums (not that I'll brush such opinions off, mind you--that's ignorant).

And as for paralyzing writers...that's a good goal. To become such a good writer that you literally paralyze the reader with your brilliance.

Who wants some? :e2brows:

Paralyzing Writers.

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