Too many minor characters...

nicegrrl · Dec 2, 2006

How do you know if you have too many minor characters? I am worried that I have too many or that I introduce too many in too short a time frame. I originally aimed to have less than 20 characters and now I will probably have about 50. Is this too many for a 90K story? All of them have roles that are connected to plot development.

What do you all think?

Oddsocks · Dec 2, 2006

How minor are they? If they're very minor, there in one scene and not referred to later, it probably isn't a problem. If they're more important, then it's probably still ok, so long as they are memorable and distinctive. It will only become a problem if the reader starts to have difficulty keeping them all straight in their head.

I'd suggest getting a beta reader's opinion on this.

Julie Worth · Dec 2, 2006

It depends. Do they all have names? Does the reader have to remember them all? (I usually have trouble remembering the name of the protagonist.)

TrainofThought · Dec 2, 2006

Wow, 50 characters! In my opinion, that’s too many characters. You don’t want your readers to keep flipping back to refresh their memory. If the characters' connection to the plot is weak and the story can do without them, then I advise to delete them. I’m responding as a reader, who would not be happy if I had to keep up with 50 characters. It’s your book though and you know your characters’ importance.

Elektra · Dec 2, 2006

Is it possible to combine any of the characters?

mooncars · Dec 2, 2006

I just finished Blackout by John J. Nance. While there weren't 50 characters, there were probably half that many. Most were introduced leapfrog style and died one after another. The shelf life of each secondary (and a few mains) was pretty much the same. Due to the length of the book (longer than I like), and the fact folks were getting knocked off at an astonishing rate (my, people come and go so quickly here

) it wasn't too hard to keep up.

I didn't like that several characters I came to love were killed off. Rick's gone on a tangent again. Break out the blow dart gun and the elephant tranquilizer. We may have to bring him down.

James D. Macdonald · Dec 2, 2006

Are there any that serve the same purpose in the story? If so, combine them.

karo.ambrose · Dec 2, 2006

I had this same problem and like other people are saying, I combined some of the characters and it really didn't detract from the story at all. It made it read smoother, less cluttered, and it gave these smaller characters more room for development.

nicegrrl · Dec 2, 2006

..well

Some of the characters have functional roles without names or only last for the scene they are in. Ex, a coast guard person that finds on the sea, a scotland yard person that interrogates them. But there are a few minor characters that show up at multiple points in the story. I think the challenge will be getting the reader to remember minor characters that will come back at future points.

karo.ambrose · Dec 2, 2006

Well if they don't have names, that's different (cuz remembering 50 names is a daunting task, especially for a 90k novel). Do they all have dialogue?

nicegrrl · Dec 2, 2006

yeah

Almost all of them have some type of dialogue- even if it is only a couple of lines.

I have one chapter which feels like a character dump since it introduces 4 characters, has one previously referenced character that shows up for the first time and involves 9 characters. I think it is possible to make it work, but it isnt going to come automatically.

James D. Macdonald · Dec 2, 2006

What does the Coast Guardsman have to say that's so important that it can't go in indirect discourse, or in a description by one major character talking to another one?

Oddsocks · Dec 2, 2006

nicegrrl said:
Some of the characters have functional roles without names or only last for the scene they are in.

I don't think these ones really need to be counted towards a 'too many characters' pile, since there's no pressure to remember them. They can just come and go.

Cassidy · Dec 2, 2006

Hey. I'd chime in my agreement with those who have suggested combining some of the minor characters. In general, I think reducing the number of characters is often an important part of revision. Do they all serve a purpose in moving the story forward? Try making a list of all the characters (not the guy who's just delivering the mail, but anyone who has more than one or two lines of diaolgue) and writing down a few ways in each of them contributes to the story. It might help you to see if any are unneccessary, or if several serve the same purpose and could be collapsed into one. -Cassidy

BruceJ · Dec 3, 2006

I never really thought to count my minor characters. Do they support the story line or detract from it? Does the reader get confused trying to keep everybody straight? Are they all important to the whole story, or do some just do a cameo then disappear, never to be seen or heard of by Man again? (I'm probably asking the same questions that prompted you to start this thread, which means I'm not being much help at all...)

Ideas:

Is there a group of six people clustered around a table discussing something and a group of three or four could achieve the same objective?

Can you get away with only six people on the cheer squad/dance team/expert panel/posse instead of eight?

You might rank them in order of importance to the story and then cut off the list when you find yourself becoming ambivalent to their existence.

You could briefly introduce one named BruceJ and then kill him off in the same scene for being totally unhelpful.

Gillhoughly · Dec 3, 2006

Fifty characters in one book isn't a story, but a chorus line. You're wasting page space introducing them all.

I sold a big historical saga, 4 novels, half a million words. In all that I had 1 hero, 6-8 important "guest stars" and at most 10 spear carriers. None were on stage at the same time.

Wrong way:
The butler, Darymple, a large man of great dignity, came in with our coffee. "Your coffee, sir," he said, placing a silver tray on the table.

"Thank you Darymple. Has Lady Frumptoss arrived yet?"

"I think I heard her carriage in the drive, sir."

Lord Hackworth added sugar to his coffee and stirred it lazily. "Please go see for certain."

"Yes, sir." Darymple backed from the room with a bow and a good natured smile.

"Excellent man," said Lord Hackworth. "Been in the family for years. Harumph."

Darymple returned, ushering in Lady Frumptoss. She swept past and joined the party.

Better way:
The butler brought coffee and the news Lady Frumptoss had arrived. Soon she swept into the parlor and joined the party.

If your work looks like the first example you can SO trim it.

Elektra · Dec 3, 2006

I don't know--fifty doesn't seem so many if you're counting everyone,including the barrista who says, "Here's your coffee," and is never heard from again, and the guy the MC bumps into and tells, "Excuse me."

My-Immortal · Dec 3, 2006

Gillhoughly said:
Fifty characters in one book isn't a story, but a chorus line. You're wasting page space introducing them all.

I sold a big historical saga, 4 novels, half a million words. In all that I had 1 hero, 6-8 important "guest stars" and at most 10 spear carriers. None were on stage at the same time.

Wrong way:
The butler, Darymple, a large man of great dignity, came in with our coffee. "Your coffee, sir," he said, placing a silver tray on the table.

"Thank you Darymple. Has Lady Frumptoss arrived yet?"

"I think I heard her carriage in the drive, sir."

Lord Hackworth added sugar to his coffee and stirred it lazily. "Please go see for certain."

"Yes, sir." Darymple backed from the room with a bow and a good natured smile.

"Excellent man," said Lord Hackworth. "Been in the family for years. Harumph."

Darymple returned, ushering in Lady Frumptoss. She swept past and joined the party.

Better way:
The butler brought coffee and the news Lady Frumptoss had arrived. Soon she swept into the parlor and joined the party.

If your work looks like the first example you can SO trim it.

Isn't there a happy medium between your "wrong way" and "better way"? Sure, the first is long and slows the pace of your story a bit, but while reading it I actually 'saw' the scene play out in my mind. The second passage...not so much. I understand the need to 'get on with the story' but wouldn't a writer want at least a little flesh and muscle on the bare bones of their writing?

Take care -

nicegrrl · Dec 3, 2006

ok

So, if I describe the dialogue of a minor character instead of writing it in, they dont count?

Right now, I have a heroine, her best friend and her potential love interest as the three star characters. I have one yoda type rarely seen, but spiritually important character. I may have too many villains now that I think about it. I have 3 main villains and about 10 random thugs that are vaguely or indirectly connected the the villains. Then I have various socialites whose moral role is ambiguous until the end- the villain's daughter, her boyfriend and the ex girlfriend of the heroine's love interest. Then there are the random's- a villain's secretary, the heroine's roomate, a villain's ex wife and new husband, some family friends of the heroine and 3 or 4 helpful strangers.

I dont know...

Stew21 · Dec 3, 2006

In my first MS I had too many characters. I got rid of the mc's parents, sister, brother in law, and one of her grandmothers. With all of that, I added on great aunt and gave her some of the dialogue that was important to the story that the axed grandma and grandfather had previously, I got rid of a wedding scene that was unimportant so I could axe the siblings, and father from the picture and in the end I ended up with one main character, 5 other characters of consequence, the antagonist, and his mistress, and at a scene with a party, I introduced two other people for the purpose of conversation which would move the plot. ANything important about the girl's parents was developed in conversation with her grandmother, anything that was important from the grandfather was developed through the great aunt and grandmother, etc.
Much smoother without the additional characters. If they can be combined, serve similar purposes, don't really progress the storyline, can be referred to in conversation with other more significant characters, then perhaps that would be the best way to reduce that number.
Good luck!

kristie911 · Dec 3, 2006

If they all have names, it's WAY too many. As a reader, if I have to flip back more than 2 or 3 times to remember people, I'm going to put the book down.

But just reading your description of all the people made me think, "way too many, I'd skip it." That doesn't mean it's not good or it's too many but that's a lot of people.

nicegrrl · Dec 3, 2006

yeah

I know it is a lot. It's part society novel and part action novel. Society novels seem to end up with lots of characters and Ive always thought that muddles the plot. I think Im going to continue the first draft with all the characters, but I have an idea of which ones can be eliminated if beta readers indeed think I have too many.

JeanneTGC · Dec 3, 2006

nicegrrl said:
I know it is a lot. It's part society novel and part action novel. Society novels seem to end up with lots of characters and Ive always thought that muddles the plot. I think Im going to continue the first draft with all the characters, but I have an idea of which ones can be eliminated if beta readers indeed think I have too many.

That, to me, is the answer. Do your betas have trouble following it? If so, you're writing it wrong and should figure out how to revise. Your revision may be the answer, or you may have to revise again, to get it right. That you're open to doing so is a sign that you will succeed (at least, to me).

Because I write a lot of epics that turn into series, I end up with many characters. It took me 10 full novels to get how to introduce and not overwhelm correctly. In that time, my main beta readers were a godsend. My first "a lotta characters" novels could never have hoped to try for publication. Now, I have it down, but again, it took writing, rewriting and rewriting again and again to learn how.

Gillhoughly · Dec 3, 2006

My-Immortal said:
while reading it I actually 'saw' the scene play out in my mind.

I'll take it as a compliment that even when I'm trying to write badly it comes out halfway readable.

Check out the word rep for "coffee." Ugh. One too many for this editor.

My-Immortal said:
I understand the need to 'get on with the story' but wouldn't a writer want at least a little flesh and muscle on the bare bones of their writing?

What's left out (and normally part of the set up for the scene) is that Lady Frumptoss is a far more important character than the butler, and she bears news to push the plot along. Once she joins the party the details like how the coffee is stirred can be put in. Harumph.

When a book has so many name characters that I need a cheat-sheet to keep them all straight I generally don't read that writer again.

Tom Clancy comes to mind for that sort of thing. He'll give a 5-page bio for a spear carrier introduced on p. 57, who then drops out of sight until p. 480--by then I've forgotten who the heck he is. Thirty other characters and their bios have jostled him off the stage.

Less is more. Clancy had his Jack Ryan and I could remember the name (mostly because of the movies). I can't recall any names from Da Vinci Code, just tags like "the chick who runs a lot" or "the dude Tom Hanks played" or "hey, didn't that guy play Gandalf?"

When I replace names with tags, then the writer has failed to produce a memorable character I can admire.

On the other hand, Lois McMaster Bujold has her sprawling space operas with lots of highly memorable characters. I can name each one and give bios--simply because they are ALL very well-written. She's re-readable, too. I can always pick up any of her books and get sucked right in again.

Akuma · Dec 3, 2006

Did somebody say Robert Jordan?

Too many minor characters...

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