How many copies must be sold...?

Hi Eric,

Good question. I wonder about that myself. I don't think anyone would deny a POD sales figure of 9K books to be successful, especially for a fiction title. I think that would probably be enough to attract attention from the bigger houses, but having never been in that situation I can't say for sure. If you read POD-dy Mouth, she asks similar questions in her Editor and Agent Q & A and it seems the agents she has spoken to would consider 9K POD books sold to be a success worthy of note.

You're a 'real' writer if you write. Full stop. All that other crap is the unwanted salad garnish taking up space on the plate of your club sandwich. Don't eat it, for God's sake - you won't have room for dessert.

I usally measure the success of a book if it's able to appear on a best selling list. Although, I don't necessarily that you are a "writer" if you smply write. Some authors lack prose but yet have a best seller to their resume.

Different kinds of success, methinks. I would be impressed by the underselling Tor author for managing to impress Tor, which is damned hard. And impressed with the high selling self-publisher for managing to reach their market.

Personally I start getting impressed with self-pubbers around 1000 copies within say, two years. But it's bound to vary by individual.

There is a lot that goes into it that includes the hows and whys.

With self and pod publishing there haven't been any filters, there isn't any guarantee of quality, and it can get pretty bad, believe me as a former PA author myself it can get really bad.

So the POD and self published author has the odds stacked even higher against them. They don't recieve critical bookstore shelf space, they don't recieve library consideration because it isn't listed in the proper places, they don't have access to reviews, book clubs, the list goes on. Also price is exhorbitant because there aren't the bigger print runs, then comes quality of cover design and illustrations, generally very poor, and so on.

So if such an author were to sell a couple thousand copies, they would be consider a rather remarkable success due to the odds stacked against them and could then recieve some good attention, however as you know the odds are very slim that it would happen.

An author by a big publishing house who doesn't clear the advance, the design costs, and so forth is considered a failure even if they sell two or three times what the self/pod author sold because of the profit loss ratio. The publisher lost money = failure. The publisher gains money = success.

If publishers were in the business to lose money there would quickly be no publishers. In fact the top percentile of books carries the rest of the failures and keeps the publishers in the black. I consider a book a success if it clears cost and makes everyone some money, I consider a book a raving success if it surpasses all expectations, such as Harry Potter.

Personally, I think being published, period, is an accomplishment as long as the publisher actually has a selection process in place (i.e. they don't publish anything that comes their way). Might be naive of me to think so but to me it shows that someone other than friends and family believes in your work enough to attach their label and, by association, their reputation to it.

Silverhand said:

at what point in their eyes would a lesser author become legit?

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For most--when the author sells a book to a print house and gets an advance check.


They're going to blackball me for making that public.

"We're ON to you, Gillhoughly!"​

I think this is a very interesting thread, and I in no way want what I'm going to ask to come off as flippant or rude, merely curious.

I'm just wondering why this is important to you? General curiosity, proving your time spent wasn't in vain to the friends and relations, bragging rights, something else? Again, just interested curiosity on my part in the question.

Silverhand said:

So now, I guess I want to tighten my question - other then getting a big fatty paycheck from a traditional publisher, what does a POD / Self Pub author need to sell to become a real author? For example, is Paolini considered a real author since he started by publishing his own work?

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If by real you mean credited and passing by the scrutiny of others, then yes.

I would switch real for credited. An author published through a small or large press but traditional has a writing credit, where as a POD/self doesn't start out with a writing credit.

The writing credit is considered a credit because it has passed through the scrutiny of "qualified" individuals. Now if you sell enough copies via POD or self then it becomes a credit because it has passed through the scrutiny of others and been given a recommend.

Thus Paolini would have been considered a "real" writer before he was even picked up by a larger house.

All of this all comes down to your bankability of your writer and how much you have proven yourself in the writing community. It is the same thing with agents, which is why publishing houses want agents. It is a guarantee of quality, of readership.

The reason why POD and self get such a bad rap is because ANYONE can become one, it takes no level of skill or readability of your work. Once you prove that you aren't with the 80 or so % of suckage, then you become a real author, which again real being sematics.

I hope that helps.

And as a second part, success is in the eye of the beholder. A person who reaches midlists with five books might find themselves super successful because they have five books published and got paid.

A second author with the same number of books and similar sales would consider themselves miserable failures because they didn't reach best seller on any of them. So what does it take for you to consider yourself a success? Some just need a book to hold, some want wide readership, some want X number of titles.

The numbers on the self pubbed and POD have already been answered, in the first ten thousand. That is much harder than anyone could imagine, I've already been there done that especially when your "publisher" is working hard against you to make sure you fail, in that respect, you are far ahead of me.

Silverhand said:

the attitude you describe is out there. Is it shared by the majority of print-pubbed authors?

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ALL the print-pub writers I have actually met (more than 50, less than 100) do not consider POD writers to be "in the club."

Most of the print-pub writers I know are also very generous souls and if asked for advice will cheerfully offer it.

In my own experience the POD writers I met never did their research and honestly thought POD & vanity houses were how one got published.

I want to know how much success someone in my position needs to have to be considered in the group?

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Same reply as before--make a sale to a print house. One print-pub book on the racks with mediocre sales is going to garner you more respect than a dozen POD titles with healthy sales.

Is success soley based on paying the proper publishing dues?

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In my little corner of the world, yes.

other then getting a big fatty paycheck from a traditional publisher,

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Uh--where? WHERE?? I want one of those fatty checks!!

what does a POD / Self Pub author need to sell to become a real author?

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Anything that you're passionate about.

Write well, send stuff in, keep sending until you sell. Those rules were there long before I began and they're not likely to change anytime soon.

For example, is Paolini considered a real author since he started by publishing his own work?

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He is a lottery winner in the publishing game. We all want that, but it hardly ever happens, however many tickets we buy.

I'm glad he's gotten some success and money, but he is one of the few, VERY few exceptions.

Any way you slice this salami you're going to get the same thing:

POD writers don't get no respect.

I'd say shrug it off, get back to the keyboard and write. Sell it or not, but write, and be happy with what you've written.

Re

Silverhand said:

Hey everyone,

My question this morning regards POD and Self Pubbed authors...and how many copies they need to sell before they become legit.

Yea, yea, yea. WE all know that 90% of these authors don't sell more then 300 copies. We also know that most traiditionally published authors sell less than 3000 copies. And finally, we know that failure seems to effect alot of people regardless IF they are published by a real publisher.

Thus, after watching all the negative recommendations / comments aimed towards lesser authors--I want to know at what point does an author's failure or success become accepted by the writing community? Is ALL that matters to other writers being published by a REAL publisher? Or do numbers matter? Or readership and fans?

So lets say that a POD author sells 650 copies. Is he successful?

Lets say that same author sold 1200 copies, but was published by TOR...are they successful? Or are they a considerable failure by publishing average standards?

If a Self-pubbed author sells 9k copies, is that success? Is it a striking success? Are they considered a REAL author at this point?

What if that self pubbed author could have gotten a contract from Baen Books...and still sells 9k copies? Is he the same success?

Lets say you are a prime time author...and have sold 50 books...and your signing bonus is six figures--except this time your book sells 5 copies. Are you still a success because you got paid? Is the work still brilliant by all accounts? Are you still considered a REAL author given your works failure? etc etc

Discuss...

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It's up to you to decide. Success and failure are only relative. You set your aims, and success and failure'll come in different measures. It's a dog- eat-dog world; sometime you have to exist at a street level before rising above everyone else. These writers are the real McCoy.

Silverhand said:

Hehe,

Well I guess my first response is that writers like myself face a mountain of odds stacked against them. That said, I would like to know how success in general is defined...from a sheer publishing credit stand point and from other authors that get to start out looking down. (I dont mean that in a disrespectful way either. That is the name of the game...you paid your dues, which means you start out above of authors like me.)

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Okay, I didn't realize you were self-published. (NICE cover.) BTW, I'm *paying* my dues, I'm not published yet. And, I feel like ALL authors have the odds stacked against them. Not saying that we can't succeed, but it sure will take talent, skill and a whole lot of perseverance to do it.

I don't feel that I start out above anyone, other than those who cannot write a coherent sentence to save their lives and yet who feel that their book is ready to go and, more importantly, above ever being edited. (This, btw, covers a lot of the self-published market, and that's part of the reason for the stigma, if you will, attached to being self-published.)

Silverhand said:

Secondly, it helps authors like me build goals.

The first thing I did after finishing my book? I wrote a 25 page business plan. I laid out an exit plan. I laid out a very very very basic marketing plan. I did a mock profit and loss statement. After my book was accepted to be published by a micro-press? I laid out a full marketing plan...should I be forced to do my own.

I mention all of this because - how can I know if I am having success if I do not know where the stars lay? More importantly - how can I define success if success has an ever changing definition?

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Well, as a businesswoman by day, having goals, a business case, marketing pland and p/l statement made up is smart. For anyone. I think every author should know how many books need to move in order to ensure a SECOND book on the shelves, and then a third, etc.

Silverhand said:

Saying all of that, I am not asking for just myself. I truly am curious. With how negative lesser authors like me are percieved just what needs to happen for the writing culture to view us as equals. I mean maybe Gil is right...maybe it takes a real-pubbed publisher and an advance check. Well dang, isn't that info completrly rellevant to all those authors out there who aren't successful? One who want to be equal? Ones who truly are shooting for the stars...and may never reach since the dont know how success is defined?

I hope that answers your question.

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Sort of. I guess I don't understand why you consider yourself a "lesser author". If I take the assumption that your book is well written, edited, and coherent, you've finished it, it's printed and available to be bought and sold. Not seeing how that makes you "lesser". It may indicate that you were rash and rushed into a micro-press before pursuing the more traditional methods, or were scammed if the press weren't legitimate.

Now, if your book was NOT professionally edited, is not well written, and would make most readers regret opening the cover, then you are a "lesser" writer. But that can be fixed by working hard at your craft.

But I don't think you mean it this way at all. If I'm understanding you correctly (and I really may not be, so if not, apologies and please clarify), you want "in" at the popular kids' table. Uh, don't we all? But, there is only so much room at that table, and there are different levels of popularity, too. While I would like to hang with Stevie, and Danielle, and Larry, and Norah, and Dan, and Dave, and Maya, there are only so many seats. And, when I get there, maybe I won't like them all that much.

I'd rather find my own table, make my place there, and then make my table the happening place to be. And, I promise, you can come sit with me.

Christopher Paolini (hi, it's 1:30am and I can't remember how to spell his name) may have sold a bunch of copies of his book self-published, but I advise you reading up on what his method of self-publishing was, and how he tried to sell it.

I would also dutifully point out that his books aren't self-published anymore. By the time he appeared in the world properly, Knopf had already picked him up. It doesn't hurt, when approaching the publisher, to say "I've sold 3,000 copies of my book out of the trunk of my car," but on the other hand, if you say "I sold my book to PublishAmerica and we sold thirty copies, and now I'll give you a shot, Baen!" then you can watch the hurt appear.

The reason that POD is not considered "in the club" is that while there are some extremely nice, wonderful, intelligent authors who publish some very good work themselves because they want to....there's also a whole swimming pool of screaming, mostly maniacle, lunatics who think the publishing industry is out to get specifically them.

When POD publishers start getting books into bookstores, then they'll be getting somewhere, because they'll be appealing to the reader and not to the author.

BUT, when they start doing that, then they have to start being selective about what books they publish, or their shipping costs will be through the roof...and then, really, they aren't POD anymore, are they? They're just a "regular" publisher who uses digital offset.

Mostly, this is why I send stuff to the "regular" publishers. Because I haven't the head for all this stuff, and I don't care. I want to write, and then give what I write to someone who cares deeply about it from there on out, while I go to write the next thing. See what I mean?

This isn't saying anything you all don't already know, but the book world is really a tough, tough business. My manuscript was accepted by a traditional publisher and the book came out in fall of 2003. They told me that for a first time/unknown author sales of 5000 copies would be considered a great success. The pub recently sent me the stats on sales: just over 6000 to date. I'm proud of that on many levels, but it's been 3 years of me essentially marketing it on my own.

ponygal said:

I'm proud of that on many levels, but it's been 3 years of me essentially marketing it on my own.

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Having been on this on the other side I would like to make it VERY clear. (Not aimed at you ponygal, just people have misconceptions that marketing is the same if you are doing it on your own no matter who publishes you.)

Marketing on your own through a regular publisher and marketing on your own through POD and Self are two very different animals.

Through a regular publisher the following has already been done.

1. A catalog of your book has been distributed to bookstores and is available for ordering at a proper price and discount.

2. Cover art has been properly secured and is geared toward the readership.

3. It already has a LoC number and is available for libraries to order.

4. It is set up with proper distribution for bookstores and major and small retailers alike.

5. It is eligble for reviews that POD and Self can't even dream of touching.

6. It has been edited and properly vetted at several stages.

With POD and Self you start out with NOTHING, well and a stigma to top it all off. Everything lies on the authors shoulders and most would just assume to have you pay the costs and buy the books and them not have to worry about doing a single thing.

Please note that not all POD and self publishers are created equal some are better than others some should never have opened their doors.

You're absolutely right Icerose. POD/self and traditional publishing are like two different worlds. Everything you mentioned that IS handled by a trad/pub certainly is a tremendous boost...my input about marketing on my own was more in reference to the publisher not doing much beyond the initial launch. I'm deeply grateful that I even have a book in print, how ever it happened, but the monumental task of marketing forever looms large.

ponygal said:

You're absolutely right Icerose. POD/self and traditional publishing are like two different worlds. Everything you mentioned that IS handled by a trad/pub certainly is a tremendous boost...my input about marketing on my own was more in reference to the publisher not doing much beyond the initial launch. I'm deeply grateful that I even have a book in print, how ever it happened, but the monumental task of marketing forever looms large.

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Hi Ponygal,

I hope your next book sells even more and gets more support from the publisher, I just wanted to make sure others here understood that there is a huge difference in the effort it takes to sell a thousand copies through a commercial publisher and the effort it takes to sell a thousand copies through a self/pod publisher is massive.

With your first book surpassing their expectations, does that increase your chances of getting published and with better support with book two?

Silverhand, assuming Breakneck's website is actually honest (I haven't background checked them), they're a small press, which constitutes a legitimate publishing credit. When most people talk about PoD, they're talking about vanity or self-publishing. Breakneck's goal, according to their website, is to get big enough that they can accept returns (thereby getting their books in stores) and offer advances. They pay authors (authors do not pay them), and they flat state that it's their goal to get up to around twenty titles a year-- which means they're decidedly <i>not</i> using PublishAmerica's business model.

I'm not up on the field enough to know if their business model is any good, but you can write "My first novel was published by Breakneck Books" in a query and it actually means something. Granted, it doesn't mean nearly as much as "My first novel was published by a very large house and earned out its advance in three months," but it does mean that a real editor who doesn't buy everything that comes across their desk liked it enough to publish it and attach their house's reputation to it.

This, of course, is all assuming that their website is truthful, because like I said, I haven't background checked them.

ETA: I meant when people talk about PoD in a negative way, as in 'PoD authors aren't real writers.' I'm aware that it's a technology that also gets used in perfectly legitimate and non-scammy ways.

LeeFlower said:

Silverhand, assuming Breakneck's website is actually honest (I haven't background checked them), they're a small press, which constitutes a legitimate publishing credit. When most people talk about PoD, they're talking about vanity or self-publishing. Breakneck's goal, according to their website, is to get big enough that they can accept returns (thereby getting their books in stores) and offer advances. They pay authors (authors do not pay them), and they flat state that it's their goal to get up to around twenty titles a year-- which means they're decidedly <i>not</i> using PublishAmerica's business model.

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Actually POD refers to a technology. If they don't use any offset printing, they are printing one copy at a time, which causes high prices and are generally trade paperback which are larger than standard paperback, meaning most bookstores won't/can't order them due to the unreliability of the supply and the quality. POD has almost as bad a rap as vanity because there are enough "publishers" out there who don't care about the authors or getting readers.

For it to be a credit for the writers guild it has to give a 2000 dollar advance. So by the WGA standards, a minimum 2000 dollar advance is considered a successful publishing credit.

The truth is that self-published and traditionally published are two different clubs. It's like the difference betweeh professional marathoners and weekend joggers. Self-published is open to anyone who pays the fees. Traditionally published is open only to those who have gone through the eye of the needle by being vetted through agents, editors, and publishers. The way self-pubbers move out of the self-published club and into the traditionally published club is by having a traditional publisher pick up their work, either the one they self-published (rare) or another book they write later. In my experience, the majority of self-published authors (and I've met a lot at conferences and writing groups) tend to be an impatient lot who are unwilling to slog through the vetting process and don't really understand the value that the employees of traditional publishers add to their work. (That said, there are situations where it makes sense to self-publish, but they rarely involve novels.) The question of which club is right for you is based on what is important to you, why you write and your expected outcome of publication. If you're happy with the results of self- publishing, then you should consider yourself a success. If you're not happy with how things turned out, write another book and try another approach.