Scene heading - indeterminate time of day

How would you handle this?

Most of the script I'm working on takes place underground. There is no exterior light, therefore no way to determine whether it's day or night (or, for that matter, any reason for the gaffer to care). I'm writing for production, so it doesn't really matter, but I'm curious how all of you would write the scene headings?

INT. UNDERGROUND CAVE - ????

if it's daytime you write DAY
if it's nitetime you write NIGHT
no need to worry about the production side. get the story right. if your story is good enough to get interest from a producer and go into production then no one will care, even if you leave it blank (which is another option).

write on!

It doesn't matter if the scene shows night or day. When does the scene happen? That's all you need to know.

Now, if you have a scene in deep space or somewhere in the galaxy, what do you do?

I think maybe I wasn't clear.

No one KNOWS whether it's day or night--not just the person evaluating the light, but the characters as well. There's no way to distinguish between times of day within the story.

Given that, I feel that specifying in the scene heading would be sort of like interfering.

My initial instinct is to leave it blank to avoid confusion,

INT. UNDERGROUND CAVE

But having said this... technically speaking, DAY and NIGHT indicate whether or not there's natural light (which is something the lighting crew must know, of course). But it's also an indicator of passing time. If you transition from DAY to NIGHT and back to DAY, etc. then there's payoff in that your characters may be presumed to be more tired, more hungry, more desperate, more "We're never going to get out of here!" (just for example's sake). And, your characters will have wristwatches, won't they? So they're not going to be cut off from DAY and NIGHT sensibilities. They'll become tired and want to sleep and do other things as dictated by their body clocks. They'll maybe talk about what people on the surface are doing, "She'll be asleep by now... dreaming sweet dreams... reaching out to touch my side of the bed... not even knowing I'm trapped in this tomb and I'm going to die soon!" etc. (again just for example's sake). Too many actions and thoughts relate to time of day... which is why I'd include DAY or NIGHT in the slugline. It's not interfering, it's a tool that benefits your story.

Too much analysis. Hope some of it helps in some way.

-Derek

I might do something like this....


INT. UNDERGROUND CAVE - NIGHT

...or could be DAY. We are so far below earth that time doesn't matter.


Or something like that.

simple yet great. this is why hamboogul is the expert. :hail

Yeah, that's a good idea.

I think in this case, I'm going to just leave it blank unless the action is continuous. It'll end up being a production script, and no one on the crew is going to be confused about it. It was just something I've never faced as a screenwriter before.

Begin controversy...

As a reader, I hate the use of "we" in a script. I know most writers love it and many think it's extremely important to the telling of the story - but I always wonder who "we" is. And it pulls me out of the story. Every time I read "we" I stop relating to the characters and the story and become very aware that I am somehow outside of it, looking in.

Back to the original question.

If not knowing weather it's day or night is part of the story I'm all for simply leaving the time of day out.

As a reader, I hate the use of "we" in a script. I know most writers love it and many think it's extremely important to the telling of the story - but I always wonder who "we" is.

Click to expand...

Ahem.

WE: Used by the speaker or writer to indicate the speaker or writer along with another or others as the subject.

It seems abundantly clear the "we" in a screenplay is the intended readers and/or viewers of the scene.

To have doubts about the meaning of so simple a word, 2 letters and one syllable at that, makes me question greatly your chances at succeeding in a business where the knowledge and usage of words is vitally important.

Hey, hey, hey!

Don't start it okay?!!!

Lets stick to the question.
Ham provided a great example of how to solve the problem while adding character to the actual writing.
Dpaterso brings up a good point as well.

There is no cut and dried RIGHT and WRONG here. Some people would write day or night, others would leave them out.

In this case it doesn't really make too much of a difference so create a great story and it's not likely to be a serious issue.

It seems abundantly clear the "we" in a screenplay is the intended readers and/or viewers of the scene.

Click to expand...

Yet not so clear to me.

Its use pulls me, the reader, out of the story. I feel as if I am being directly addressed by the writer. And it puts a distance between me and the story.

To have doubts about the meaning of so simple a word, 2 letters and one syllable at that, makes me question greatly your chances at succeeding in a business where the knowledge and usage of words is vitally important

Click to expand...

I, too, have my doubts. It's a tough business in which to succeed

But not because I don't understand the meaning of that little, 2 letter, one syllable word. In fact, I know the meaning quite well. I just am never quite sure who "we" is in a screenplay, or why it's needed.

When I read, "We see a car pull into the driveway." I wonder why, "A car pulls into the driveway." isn't enough. I'm pretty sure the writer want it seen.

Hey, hey, hey!

Don't start it okay?!!!

Lets stick to the question.
Ham provided a great example of how to solve the problem while adding character to the actual writing.

Click to expand...

Fair enough.

But I am curious about this character "we" adds to the writing.

But if you don't want me to talk about it, this will be my last post on this thread about the use of "we".

There is no cut and dried RIGHT and WRONG here. Some people would write day or night, others would leave them out.

Click to expand...

Exactly what makes this board so interesting and helpful: the chance to see the points of views from other writers.
===============================================================================
The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)

Sometimes, just sometimes, using "we" is the easiest way to write something. Seeking an alternative for the sake of some imaginary purist writing ideal is more trouble than it's worth, a needless solution to a problem that doesn't exist in the first place. And the convoluted result will probably stick out like a sore thumb, too.

Looking at Hamboogul's example, it's an extension of the slugline. If reading the slugline doesn't knock you out of the story then accepting the extra info that follows in the next line shouldn't pose too much of a problem.

Your "We see a car..." example is another argument entirely, that's a writing style blip that can easily be done away with, as you point out. Don't confuse this with the use of "we" to lend clarity to a situation.

-Derek

First, my example, while not best, is good enough.

Second, I've never met anyone in the industry who has ever had an objection to "We."

Third, the whole "we" thing is something that's discussed by fringe writers as a no-no. I've never met a good writer who had issues with this. Conversely, every writer who had issues with this were crummy writers.

Seriously, what is wrong with my solution? It's simple.

"We" should never be used. Anything that takes the reader out of the story and reminds him/her that he/she is reading and not experiencing is not a good idea.

As for your time of day. I assume that the characters know that some time has passed, even though they don't know whether it's day or night. Also you want to let the reader know that some or a lot of time has passed from page one to end.

I would use...

- 1 HOUR LATER
- 2 DAYS LATER
etc...

Let us know whether they are trapped for ten minutes or weeks...

First, my example, while not best, is good enough.

Second, I've never met anyone in the industry who has ever had an objection to "We."

Click to expand...

Hi. Now you have. I'm a story editor (reader) at New Line. Though it's not so much an objection to it's use. I'm more interested in why writers use it.

Third, the whole "we" thing is something that's discussed by fringe writers as a no-no. I've never met a good writer who had issues with this. Conversely, every writer who had issues with this were crummy writers.

Click to expand...

While "good" is subjective, now you have "met" a good writer who has issues with it. Again, I'm not objecting to it, or suggesting that writer stop using it.

I'm sorry that without reading a single word of one of my scripts you assume I am a crummy writer because I have issues with the use of "we." I'm just expressing my thoughts and hoping to learn form other writers. I cover 20-30 scripts a week and never get the chance to talk to the writers. This place is where I think I can have an open, informative discussion.

Seriously, what is wrong with my solution? It's simple

Click to expand...

Nothing. It's simple and gets the job done. I wanted to express my thoughts on it.

I knew my comments would cause controversy because the use of "we" is something many writers feel is very important. After reading posts here for a while I was unprepared for the veiled personal attacks.

So I apologize for bringing up this subject.

Ham - I meant no offense.

Derek - thanks. I'd love to explore your points a little further, but I think I'll bow out for now.

the use of we

In 95 to 97% percent of cases I would agree with you certified. The use of we see or we are, etc is a lazy way of writing the obvious and a simple "The car drives down the road" is the much better option.

However,
Ham and some other writers us we in a way that enhances the script. It adds flavor and character to the actual writing.
It is their style.
They use we in the same way in which Shane Black injected himself into his scripts.
We in this case suggests to the reader a very specific point of view that places us INSIDE the film.

I would advise everyone to go back and read the example again to see what I mean.

I tried to keep the thread on target.
But if you can't beat em,
Certified-
Dude, you saw we and just pounced on that didn't you?!! :teeth g
Chill a little.

Actually since you are a reader at a major studio you do have my sympathies and understanding in the matter. You must see the bad form of it so often it makes you do this > :head

Re: the use of we

In 95 to 97% percent of cases I would agree with you certified.

Now you've got me wondering what the lower 94% and the 3% at the top represent. I'm biting my nails here, for God's sake put me out of my misery!

The use of we see or we are, etc is a lazy way of writing the obvious and a simple "The car drives down the road" is the much better option.

Or the beaten old Chevy limps down the road, or the gleaming Beemer roars away, or the Porche fish-tails across the road, hits a trashcan and ploughs across a front lawn before straightening up and zooming off in a screech of burning rubber.

...I just wrote that to cover up my shame at using "we" in a script just a couple of days ago. I was writing a horror story whereby a "presence" closes in on the characters in the middle of the night. I wanted the camera to DOLLY down the hallway but guess what, I can't use dolly, no camera directions allowed. So I scratched my head and tried to think of the best way to get around this. I mean, how do you describe something you can't see doing something you can't see? This is sad and pathetic, I know, but I have to confess to someone... please don't ridicule me too much... please... but I ended up writing...

INT. HALLWAY OUTSIDE BEDROOM - NIGHT

We slowly move down the hallway, toward the bedroom door.

Oh God, I'm so pathetic! I... used... "we"... <guilty sobbing>

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.

Re: the use of we

I stink at math so my percentages are probably way off, but this kind of situation usually only occurs once or twice in a script and some few people are better at using it then the vast majority. There are pro scripts who use it as has been pointed out in every we argument I've ever read.

I would say overwhelmingly this is the first problem noticed in a newbie script. It's the first word!!!
And if it's not there it will be somewhere in the second, or third, or fourth paragraph, every time something new shows up or needs to be described.

Glance through the pages at done deal. I guarantee you most of the pages will have the wrong usage of we.

So 94 to 97 percent of writers have used it wrong at some point. I've found quite a few in my earliest drafts before I knew better. A small percentage (the 3) of writers out of the millions use it effectively as a tool.

You have to think about it in order to use it right, as in your case D where using we is a reasonable solution to the problem. The we is much better then the camera direction, indicating POV and immediately creating a visual we can follow.

In my experience I've always seen it used effectively to indicate camera movement or some kind of POV situation, um, like,
We are in the trunk of a car.

This tells me it's dark, cramped, I can feel the tire iron sticking into my back. There is just a little light coming from the key hole.

Instead of using three lines to describe all that only one is used and I've told the director the camera should be INSIDE the trunk without telling him how to film the movie.

Hmm, now I guess the only question would be if you can't tell from inside the trunk whether it is night or day,
How do you write the slugline?

Re: the use of we

Hmm, now I guess the only question would be if you can't tell from inside the trunk whether it is night or day,
How do you write the slugline?


See Ham's example above. Unless you're a script editor at New Line. In which case visit my web page. :lol

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.

Re: the use of we

A few months ago, this "we" thing had me so alarmed that I went through my script and eliminated the five or so times I actually used it. I had written into the ending a "flying camera shot", but then read where I shouldn't write in camera shots or "we." Remembering the adage, "when in doubt, leave it out", I eventually settled on...

Aerial view flies low over the Dufuskie river passing fishing boats and kids on jet skis...

...but this also seems incorrect as the view itself does not fly, the camera does.

At the end of the filming script of "Titanic" James Cameron wrote:

WE GO INSIDE, and the echoing sound of distant waltz music is heard. The rust fades away from the walls of the dark corridor and it is transformed...

I've considered changing back to "we see", but as an established film maker, Cameron can write whatever he wishes, right or wrong, and his use of it shouldn't necessarily be a green light for an unknown screenwriter to do the same.

After reading this thread, I am now more confused than ever! :huh

Re: the use of we

As writers, we can use whatever tools we want.

In your example, you could've done it in many ways.

It's not like we have only 12 crayons to use and the professional writers have the whole 64 crayola set.

Use whatever you need to tell the story in the most concise, visual, and clear manner possible.

Re: the use of we

I can't believe this thread has gone on as long as it has.

Don't use "we". ever. period.

I may offend a few, but please take this as a constructive opinion and not an attack.

Cameron can write whatever he wants.
A shooting script has "we" as well as camera and transitional elements because they are greenlighted and used as blueprints for filming.

Don't confuse a shooting script from a spec. Different rules...

As for specs by others who have excessive voice over's, too many flashbacks, colored paper, 30 point font, etc... You are not Goldman or Mamet who could write a 600 page script that's one big voice over on toilet paper and no one would care. In fact, they would think it was genius and I suspect a few months later, the industry would demand that everyone does it that way.

As an unproven writer with no track record, you can write the best damned script in the world but a reader, who just read fifty scripts between his/her last cup of coffee, is looking for any reason (I mean any) to see something that is an indicator or amateur and toss it. They are not getting paid to find the next big hit r Oscar winner. They are getting paid to read as many scripts they can and write a short simple report on those that "fit" into that particular producer/agent/manager's plan.

No offense to anyone, as I am sure many of your are passionate and skilled writers and storytellers, but a spec script is a resume, a business card, the first impression (and sometimes only one) you get with a reader. DON'T GIVE ANY REASON TO MAKE THEM HAVE AN EXCUSE TO TOSS IT.

Sure, think outside the box, but know that it must at least look like it fits inside one.

That's my rant.

Joe

I was looking around and came on this thread and noticed some very interesting comments. Some folks got a little huffy, but the worst thing a screenwriter can do is take anything personal. Not too long ago I had an actor get all bent out of shape because he didn't like my script. I finally had to step real close to him and with a smile tell him to calm down and give me specifics. He couldn't, so I figured either he was having a bad day, he couldn't express himself or it was a power play or all of them.

When someone says that someone is a crummy writer without offering specifics, it is an impulsive reaction that you just shrug off. The comment by Hamboogul I think is in keeping with his Hobbies that he stated in his member personal information. A failed male escort has a lot of issues, especially when he is a graduate of USC and leaned all the academic garbage of screenwriting. We see he is using his diploma as a coaster, what was that about fringe writers? :kiss

Sorry, I'm ahead of myself. dchapma123's question is a very interesting one. If the entire story takes place without a specific time reference within the cave, that's a very cool and interesting way to go. What you do is simple enough. In my opinion you simply use INT. UNDERGROUND CAVE, which would be your first transition slug. What I would do is clarify in your action line that your characters don't know what time of the day it is. After that, go with joecalabre suggestion in the various forms to maintain scene breaks.

As to using "we see", I'm not at all fond of studio readers and avoid them like the plague, but I do have to defend certified instigator. For some reason writer/directors love to use "we see", but then they can get buy with it. No mater how someone may justify using it, it is a waste of space and writers should never waste any space. Another argument is that it is a repetition that can be very annoying. The fact remains that your description is the visual and you don't need to tell the reader that they are seeing something. So my suggestion is to never use "we see", "we hear" or anything like it. It's as foolish as having a couple being intimate and saying "we are having sex". :rofl

Of course everything is opinion and ultimately the writer has to decide for himself and the only exception is if it's a woman, then it would be for herself, but I have no idea what it would be for an hermaphrodite. Did I just lose my concentration? No wonder I can't get anywhere with the adaptation I'm working on.

Remember the great words of a great singing philosopher, don't worry, be happy. If you take yourself or writing too seriously, all you'll end up doing is to help the pharmaceutical companies get richer by taking Prozac. :jump

Don't you just love these emotion thingies?

Thomas

I was looking around and came on this thread and noticed some very interesting comments. Some folks got a little huffy, but the worst thing a screenwriter can do is take anything personal. Not too long ago I had an actor get all bent out of shape because he didn't like my script. I finally had to step real close to him and with a smile tell him to calm down and give me specifics. He couldn't, so I figured either he was having a bad day, he couldn't express himself or it was a power play or all of them.

When someone says that someone is a crummy writer without offering specifics, it is an impulsive reaction that you just shrug off. The comment by Hamboogul I think is in keeping with his Hobbies that he stated in his member personal information. A failed male escort has a lot of issues, especially when he is a graduate of USC and leaned all the academic garbage of screenwriting. We see he is using his diploma as a coaster, what was that about fringe writers? :kiss

Sorry, I'm ahead of myself. dchapma123's question is a very interesting one. If the entire story takes place without a specific time reference within the cave, that's a very cool and interesting way to go. What you do is simple enough. In my opinion you simply use INT. UNDERGROUND CAVE, which would be your first transition slug. What I would do is clarify in your action line that your characters don't know what time of the day it is. After that, go with joecalabre suggestion in the various forms to maintain scene breaks.

As to using "we see", I'm not at all fond of studio readers and avoid them like the plague, but I do have to defend certified instigator. For some reason writer/directors love to use "we see", but then they can get buy with it. No mater how someone may justify using it, it is a waste of space and writers should never waste any space. Another argument is that it is a repetition that can be very annoying. The fact remains that your description is the visual and you don't need to tell the reader that they are seeing something. So my suggestion is to never use "we see", "we hear" or anything like it. It's as foolish as having a couple being intimate and saying "we are having sex". :rofl

Of course everything is opinion and ultimately the writer has to decide for himself and the only exception is if it's a woman, then it would be for herself, but I have no idea what it would be for an hermaphrodite. Did I just lose my concentration? No wonder I can't get anywhere with the adaptation I'm working on. :head

Remember the great words of a great singing philosopher, don't worry, be happy. If you take yourself or writing too seriously, all you'll end up doing is to help the pharmaceutical companies get richer by taking Prozac.

Don't you just love these emoticons thingies?

Thomas