Long Denouement...yay or nay?

Christine N. · Nov 3, 2006

Ok, so I'm on the third pass of the WIP. The plot has taken us on a great ride, with twists and turns, and all has turned out as it should.

I realize that there are 40 pages still left in the book. This is a middle grade book. I know what you're thinking - what the heck is going on for another 40 pages? This bothered me the last pass too. The stuff reads well, but I'm wondering if an overly lengthy denoument isn't boring.

The MC is traveling, on her way home. It's a long way, so she stops and sees a friend, who wasn't in the previous scene and she wondered where he was. We find out.

Is this important enough to leave in, or do I ditch it altogether? The scene is touching, but I'm not sure if it's just dragging things out or sort of sewing them together. I mean, I like it, but I'm totally biased.

What do you think of long endings? Did you HATE that Return of the King didn't end with Aragon's crowning? Did you like that you saw all the characters storylines wrapped up, or did you just want it to end?

I'm thinking I have to let the scene go, but I'm not sure. Opinions?

icerose · Nov 3, 2006

If they didn't show what happened to all the characters in LOTR, I would be seriously ticked. I like to have some kind of wrap up, but this also depends on the story. Some are better to just cut off at the end, others need that returning to some sort of normalicy afterwards. I suggest getting beta readers to read your particular story and they will be able to tell you if it's too much or not.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 3, 2006

scene

If the book reads well and makes sense without those forty pages, then cut them. Forty pages is ten percent of the length of the average adult novel. That's a lot.

KiwiChick · Nov 3, 2006

If the book is long, I'm happy to read a long (well-written) denoument. Forty pages in a book that can't be more than a few hundred pages does sound like an awful lot, though.

KiwiChick

Bartholomew · Nov 3, 2006

Christine N. said:
Ok, so I'm on the third pass of the WIP. The plot has taken us on a great ride, with twists and turns, and all has turned out as it should.

I realize that there are 40 pages still left in the book. This is a middle grade book. I know what you're thinking - what the heck is going on for another 40 pages? This bothered me the last pass too. The stuff reads well, but I'm wondering if an overly lengthy denoument isn't boring.

The MC is traveling, on her way home. It's a long way, so she stops and sees a friend, who wasn't in the previous scene and she wondered where he was. We find out.

Is this important enough to leave in, or do I ditch it altogether? The scene is touching, but I'm not sure if it's just dragging things out or sort of sewing them together. I mean, I like it, but I'm totally biased.

What do you think of long endings? Did you HATE that Return of the King didn't end with Aragon's crowning? Did you like that you saw all the characters storylines wrapped up, or did you just want it to end?

I'm thinking I have to let the scene go, but I'm not sure. Opinions?

Write huge, edit tiny.

Our Genial Uncle Sage once said something along the lines of, "if you submit 300,000 words, and they're all the right words, you can get the ms published."

Marlowe · Nov 3, 2006

A denounement is what happens after you've resolved the plot- and forty pages is waaaaay too long. You should leave the reader satisfied, with a little bit wanting more.

BiggerBoat · Nov 3, 2006

End on a high note, and get the heck of of there. A denounment is fine, but 40 pages seems to be too much. Is there a way to shorthand things ... forget the traveling, maybe, just cut to her stopping to see her friend on the way home.

Christine N. · Nov 3, 2006

Yeah, the more I think of it, there's one darling that's just going to have to die.

It's such a nice scene, too. Sigh. Maybe I'll use it for something else.

wordmonkey · Nov 3, 2006

LOTR is a bad example. Because the story only really ends at the Grey Havens.

The return to the Shire is the end of the story for the hobbits, it's not denouement. Remember, the book is really about the hobbits' journeys, no matter how important, Aragorn is he's still only a supporting character, and in reality, his journey and "return" is a subplot.

The denouement (such as it is) there is really Sam returning home and saying to Rosie and the kids "I'm home."

josephwise · Nov 3, 2006

A denounement is what happens after you've resolved the plot- and forty pages is waaaaay too long. You should leave the reader satisfied, with a little bit wanting more.

I've always understood this differently. I thought the denouement was the tying-up of loose ends after the climax. Which is to say, your main conflict has come to a head and has been resolved. But what about your sub-conflicts? Forty-pages doesn't seem too long to me, as long as you spend them tying-up those sub-conflicts. If they're already tied-up...the book should stop.

By my definition of the term, everything in the Lord of the Rings after Frodo and Sam are rescued from Mt. Doom would be denouement. If I'm wrong about the definition...well, maybe there should be a term for what I'm talking about. Josephement, anybody?

Christine N. · Nov 3, 2006

That's what I thought too, Joseph. I mean, the point of the thing was to chuck the ring into the volcano. Once you wrap that up, see who's still alive, and actually, ya know, Return the King, then I thought the story was resolved.

To me,(and if I remember correctly, my English teacher) everything after the climax - in this case, the destruction of the ring and fall of Mordor - is denoument.

The scene I think I'm cutting isn't really tacked on; but I think the story can live without it.

Éclairer · Nov 4, 2006

josephwise said:
But what about your sub-conflicts? Forty-pages doesn't seem too long to me, as long as you spend them tying-up those sub-conflicts.

Sub-conflicts suck after the big ta-rah. I say have a little cuddle after the big-bang and then call it quits. Can't say anything in relation to your actual book though, Christine. Just my general take.

Christine N. · Nov 4, 2006

Ok, I cut the scene. I cut a couple of other things too. There's still a bit of length to the ending, but it's all related to the beginning and the character development of one of the characters, sort of sub-conflict, but it's a good resolution, so I'm leaving that. I think.

I'll be looking for betas very, very soon. I managed to get this think back down to around 60K, which is still a little longer than I wanted, but sometimes the story is as long as it is.

Marlowe · Nov 4, 2006

josephwise said:
I've always understood this differently. I thought the denouement was the tying-up of loose ends after the climax. Which is to say, your main conflict has come to a head and has been resolved.

I apologize for the lack of clarity in my original post, but that's exactly what a denounement is. As a playwriting teacher I had in college put it, a denounement is resolution- you can't introduce new ideas, you can only deal with the ones you've already introduced, and nothing kills a narrative quicker than problem solving that doesn't lead to new problems.

So I think 40 pages is too much, unless the reset of the novel is of a comparative length. Even then- well, it's impossible to say for certain without actually seeing the story itself, but from the description Christine has provided, it sounds less like resolution, and more like dealing with a potential plot-hole. I'm curious to hear what her betas have to say, though.

FennelGiraffe · Nov 4, 2006

josephwise said:
I've always understood this differently. I thought the denouement was the tying-up of loose ends after the climax. Which is to say, your main conflict has come to a head and has been resolved. But what about your sub-conflicts? Forty-pages doesn't seem too long to me, as long as you spend them tying-up those sub-conflicts. If they're already tied-up...the book should stop.

Of course, anything can work if it's done well enough, but I thought it was usually better to tie-up sub-plots before the climax.

Christine N. · Nov 5, 2006

Yes, but if the climax directly affects the sub-conflict, then you have to wrap it up after.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 5, 2006

FennelGiraffe said:
Of course, anything can work if it's done well enough, but I thought it was usually better to tie-up sub-plots before the climax.

Many subplots are tied up after the climax. Many novels have an extra few pages, an extra chapter, or an epilogue used to tie up the loose ends of subplot.

PeeDee · Nov 5, 2006

FennelGiraffe said:
Of course, anything can work if it's done well enough, but I thought it was usually better to tie-up sub-plots before the climax.

I wouldn't do that, because unless the sub-plots involve increasing amounts of tension (action, in some cases) then you would be forcing things to slow down just before your major climax. Slower moments can work well before the big finish, but too much of it can distract.

Selcaby · Nov 5, 2006

I hated the ending of the last LOTR film. Half an hour of solemn goodbyes all done at snail's pace, no danger, no jokes... I felt the characters had all become shadows of themselves (except for Bilbo). But the equivalent part of the book is one of my favourite bits, because it has the whole subplot about what Saruman's been doing in the Shire, which they completely missed out of the films. I wish they had put it in. It wasn't an orthodox ending, but it worked. So if you want to do some winding down along those lines, fine, but make sure it stays interesting.

PeeDee · Nov 5, 2006

Selcaby said:
I hated the ending of the last LOTR film. Half an hour of solemn goodbyes all done at snail's pace, no danger, no jokes... I felt the characters had all become shadows of themselves (except for Bilbo). But the equivalent part of the book is one of my favourite bits, because it has the whole subplot about what Saruman's been doing in the Shire, which they completely missed out of the films. I wish they had put it in. It wasn't an orthodox ending, but it worked. So if you want to do some winding down along those lines, fine, but make sure it stays interesting.

The Shire-Saruman ending would never have worked in the movies. It would have felt tacked on. Honestly, all we needed at the end, after all the chaos was over, was to see Aragorn king (which we did) and then to say good-bye to Gandalf and the others.

...

Off-topic: We played The Return of the King in my electronics department, because I said so (I like that I can do that). The problem was, every four hours or so (it was the extended edition) when Bilbo and the others came to the docks to leave, I was pretty much not getting any work done. I'd be standing there for five minutes, saying good-bye to old friends over and over again, and then I'd putter around the department for a bit, bummed out. I eventually took the movie out and put in a cartoon instead, because it was rough...

FennelGiraffe · Nov 5, 2006

Jamesaritchie said:
Many subplots are tied up after the climax. Many novels have an extra few pages, an extra chapter, or an epilogue used to tie up the loose ends of subplot.

Many novels do that--but how many do it well?

Sometimes, you have to look back to the beginning to discern whether an apparent climax is really the resolution of the problem posed by the opening, or whether it is "merely" a major sub-plot. An apparently anti-climactic denouement may actually be the correct ending for the opening given.

There's also the question of whether every sub-plot needs to be fully resolved. Some do, but for others it suffices to suggest the resolution is imminent, without showing it in full detail. Also, an unresolved sub-plot may provide a hook for a sequel. That, of course, can backfire if it's too blatant.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 6, 2006

FennelGiraffe said:
Many novels do that--but how many do it well?

Sometimes, you have to look back to the beginning to discern whether an apparent climax is really the resolution of the problem posed by the opening, or whether it is "merely" a major sub-plot. An apparently anti-climactic denouement may actually be the correct ending for the opening given.

There's also the question of whether every sub-plot needs to be fully resolved. Some do, but for others it suffices to suggest the resolution is imminent, without showing it in full detail. Also, an unresolved sub-plot may provide a hook for a sequel. That, of course, can backfire if it's too blatant.

Well, many of the novels I love most do this. It's a tried and true technique, both in books and in movies. The climax occurs, and then all teh loose ends are wrapped up. I suspect this is considerably more common overall than a novel or movie that simply ends with teh climax.

Long Denouement...yay or nay?

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

icerose

Lost in School Work

Jamesaritchie

KiwiChick

Editing like a caffeinated chipmunk

Bartholomew

Comic guy

Marlowe

Duck of Death

BiggerBoat

Just Shovelin' Chum

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

wordmonkey

ook

josephwise

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Éclairer

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Marlowe

Duck of Death

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Jamesaritchie

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

Selcaby

Writer of wrongs

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say

Jamesaritchie