I have a really complex plot....

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nicegrrl

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So, I am writing a story with a very complex plot. The plot is still completely linear, so I think I can make it comprehensible. Anyways, aside from Dan Brown books, can anyone name some novels with highly complex plots that are still easy to follow? And any advise on how I can make the story flow without being confusing or tangential?

thanks a bunch!!

In case you want to read my progress with this,

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38264
 
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J. Weiland

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nicegrrl said:
So, I am writing a story with a very complex plot. The plot is still completely linear, so I think I can make it comprehensible. Anyways, aside from Dan Brown books, can anyone name some novels with highly complex plots that are still easy to follow? And any advise on how I can make the story flow without being confusing or tangential?

thanks a bunch!!

I didn't know Dan Brown had complex plots :D


You should get hold of the book PLOT by Ansen Dibell. It will tell you everything you need to know about juggling different plot lines.
 
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nicegrrl

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Well, its that kind of plot. It's also comparable to the second Harry Potter book. The characters are trying to solve a problem and they keep finding clues, but have no idea where it is ultimately going. Its not like a who dunnit mystery or a michael chrighton book where you kind of know what the problem is and what the solution needs to solve.
 

J. Weiland

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You need to know who-dunnit, or else you will have trouble putting out the right clues.
 

nicegrrl

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Well, I'm not at that problem yet. Right now, the problem is that the story is just plain confusing to read. At times it even seems pointless since there is no clear problem like "look someone is dead", which sets a clear question of what needs solving.
 

J. Weiland

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Much easier to write a story, I think, if there is a cental conflict of some sort that needs to be solved.

What is the story about?
 

CaroGirl

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Sounds to me like a fairly straightforward plot. To the inexperienced (me included) even a basic, linear novel plot is an unwieldy thing.
To keep the threads neatly untangled, you might want to try plotting it on a graph. Decide what all your major plots are and put them along the vertical axis of a graph. Along the horizontal axis of the graph, list your chapters (in order, of course). This can help ensure you mention your major plots often enough to keep them in the reader’s mind throughout the novel. This method makes it easy to see any major gaps between the plots that might cause the reader to forget what’s going on.
 

J. Weiland

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CaroGirl said:
Sounds to me like a fairly straightforward plot. To the inexperienced (me included) even a basic, linear novel plot is an unwieldy thing.




To keep the threads neatly untangled, you might want to try plotting it on a graph. Decide what all your major plots are and put them along the vertical axis of a graph. Along the horizontal axis of the graph, list your chapters (in order, of course). This can help ensure you mention your major plots often enough to keep them in the reader’s mind throughout the novel. This method makes it easy to see any major gaps between the plots that might cause the reader to forget what’s going on.
This is in fact a very good idea. Think I will use it when I start working on my Science Fiction novel again. :)
 

preyer

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correct me if i'm wrong, but is the story lacking focus which is being made up with too many subplots in an effort to figure the main plot out?
 

J. Weiland

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preyer said:
correct me if i'm wrong, but is the story lacking focus which is being made up with too many subplots in an effort to figure the main plot out?

Then it could be labelled an experimental novel, couldn't it? :D
 

nicegrrl

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ok cool

There is actually only one plot. It is like a DB book. One linear plot filled with 1000 twisted little details.

You can read it in share your work if you want. It's called Terror wears Prada. I think I have chapters 1 and 3. I dont know what to do to make it easy to understand. I feel that right now I cant write dialogue and description at the same time. I dont know why this is. I dont normally have such problems. But I dont think Ive ever used dialogue to convey information instead of feelings.
 

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Dialogue makes characters come alive. Dialogue is meant to convey information and it can be a heck of a lot clearer, quicker and easier to follow and remember dialogue than narrative.

If you have minimal dialogue you're going to end up with blocks and blocks of narrative, which can be off-putting and tedious to read.

So you don't have sub-plots? Just little offshoots that quickly come back to the main plot? Or do you leave the offshoots dangling for too long?

nicegrrl said:
There is actually only one plot. It is like a DB book. One linear plot filled with 1000 twisted little details.

You can read it in share your work if you want. It's called Terror wears Prada. I think I have chapters 1 and 3. I dont know what to do to make it easy to understand. I feel that right now I cant write dialogue and description at the same time. I dont know why this is. I dont normally have such problems. But I dont think Ive ever used dialogue to convey information instead of feelings.
 

nicegrrl

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Well, so far there is more dialogue than narrative. My problem might be in plot structure somehow. I am not sure that the reader can follow the plot for the first few chapters. Its not that there are any plot off-shoots. The problem is that the reader doesnt know that there are no plot off-shoots and everything they are getting starts to come together. In the beginning, I worry that it seems kind of random.
 

nicegrrl

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ok

This is an outline of my plot. Tell me if it sounds convoluted. I mean for it to be rather straightforward.

1) characters discuss why Osama Bin Ladin's nephew, Faisal, talked to main character, Fatima. Faisal says he is interested in the building. Fatima's roomate says he is a terrorist.

2) Fatima's college friend notes that her apartment is across from an ambassador's house. They joke that you can get a clear shot at the ambassador's window from the apartment.

3) Fatima and roomate discuss what they are doing in London (this chapter is the first that gets into some character development)

4) Fatima calls ambassador about Faisal. She later sees Faisal who invites her to the Ambassador's house for a BBQ.

5) She goes to the BBQ and notices Faisal hitting on some girl, Tiffany, who is dating someoen she knows.

6) They figure out the girl he was hitting on was the daughter of a man that co-authored and enforces the patriot act.

7) They hang out with Tiffany and learn that she grew up on a diamond estate in South Africa- with some silent partner of the Debeer fortune. They learn that her parents are divorced and hate each other too. In this time they meet her father, see him talking to the ambassador and some diamond magnate.

8) The girls (Fatima and roomate) conjecture that the ambassador and Tiffany's father might benefit from allowing terrorists to bribe them in order to avoid arrest under the PA act and getting them access to diamonds, which can be used as currency that cant be detected through banking records. The girls give up on this and go home.

9) The girls are arrested under the PA act do not know why. They bribe themselves out of prison (dont worry- I make it make sense). They end up living as fugitives in eastern europe and try and figure out why they were arrested and what it was they knew too much about.

Ok, at that point there is a clear question of what needs to be fiugured out, so the plot should flow easily. But until then, the reader might not get where the story is going. Any ideas of what I should do? Maybe I should start the story in prison and work through flashbacks from the main character? This way the reader knows the story is indeed going somewhere.
 

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It sounds like the plot is missing a spine or a through-line in its conflict. Story is not a series of incidents, but a series of cause and effect units. You might check out Jack Bickham's Scene & Structure, which does an excellent job of discussion the action-reaction sequences of storytelling.

The protagonist of each scene needs to have a goal and be pursuing it, not just reacting to what appear to be random events manipulated by someone else. It's the protagonist's goal, and the pursuit of it, that establishes the spine or storyline and connects the various events.

Figure out what the protagonist wants at the beginning of the book and the first action she takes toward that goal (the inciting event) and how she either attains or fails to attain that goal at the end. In between the inciting event and the end, you'll have some turning points where the character changes or her goal changes or something major changes and the book goes off in a different direction. But it all rotates around what the protagonist wants.

I haven't read Dan Brown, so I can't use him as an example. But I suspect that the protagonist has a goal in the beginning, and over the course of the book, every scene is related, in some way, to either achieving that goal or preventing him from achieving that goal.

Another good book to read on this topic is Deb Dixon's Goal, Motivation and Conflict. It's been a while since I read it, but I believe she focuses on how the GMC run throughout the whole story and hold the story together.

JD
 

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nicegrrl said:
Well, its that kind of plot. It's also comparable to the second Harry Potter book. The characters are trying to solve a problem and they keep finding clues, but have no idea where it is ultimately going. Its not like a who dunnit mystery or a michael chrighton book where you kind of know what the problem is and what the solution needs to solve.

I don't think the Chamber of Secrets has a complex plot. It has multiple threads and try to develop characters while proceeding with the main mystery. Plot is what they do to reveal the secret and what happens afterwards. You can't really force it, but if you know your characters and the central mystery, you can lay out the crumbs and clues while building your story along an arc. A lot of times, it's just getting your characters in a situation and letting them do their things to get out of it.
 

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It sounds to me that you have no core story, more a series of random events, thus no plot at all. I have read some fairly intricate books with complicated plots and not one of them confused me when handled correctly.

If it confuses you, your readers will have no hope at all.

Also you are dealing with a muslim character as a main focus, flirting with female characters and such, they don't prize their women very highly and prefer them to be ghosts with no real place in the world except behind them and cloaked in yards of fabric, so the believability issue of him being open with women just doesn't grab me.

And watch the title, there was a movie recently made entitled Devil Wears Prada, unrelated story line, but still.
 

nicegrrl

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Well, you are right- harry potter and da vinci code arent all that complex. But they are more plot driven than most things I read. I guess my problem is that my characters dont seem too invested in the plot, which makes the reader disinterested.

icerose, what are you talking about? There def is a plot in my story. All the details are relavent to the plot too. And I dont know what you mean about the muslim thing... I think you're wayyy in left field there.

My main character is muslim and the plot is generally told from her perspective. I didnt think to clarify how westernized her and Faisal Bin Ladin are. I guess I could though. I mention that Faisal goes to boarding school for HS in Wales and then to Oxford. Would you be able to infer that he is westernized enough not to stick out in London? The main character is from NJ and went to school in the US, so she too is completely westernized and does not have cultural identity issues. Believe me, its possible. I dont have such issues either.
 

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nicegrrl said:
...can anyone name some novels with highly complex plots that are still easy to follow?

Since I'm pretty sure you don't want to hear my opinion of Dan Brown, *grin*, I'm just going to focus on this question instead.

Tim Powers is one of the finest living fantasists, and his books feature intricately interwoven plots which he brings to fruition brilliantly. He never leaves anything hanging. If you want to see how it ought to be done, I highly recommend reading his book The Anubis Gates.
 

scribbler1382

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Read anything by Neal Stephenson, IMO. Also, get your hands on any book about themes. Two good ones are THEME AND STRATEGY by Ron Tobias (it's one of the Writer's Digest books), and THE ART & CRAFT OF NOVEL WRITING by Oakley Hall.
 

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J. Weiland said:
I didn't know Dan Brown had complex plots :D


You should get hold of the book PLOT by Ansen Dibell. It will tell you everything you need to know about juggling different plot lines.

Read Flicker by Theodore Roszak, then figure out how he did it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_(novel)

Nothing I have read by Brown showed any sign of a complex plot, and his idea of a conspiracy is child's play compared to Roszak

Regards,
Scott Saylors
 

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Well, you don't want to hear this, so just keep scanning down if you can't take heat. But better to hear it at this level than from a bunch of agents.
Your description of your story at the summary level is supect. Harry Potter and Dan Brown, complicated but linear? Of course I am immediately suspect of any one who compares themselves, or their stories to the "hot tickets" of the moment.
When reading your summary I am immediately take by two things. 1) Almost everything appears to be dialog. I would get irritated with a book all about dialog, much less apparent political dialog. 2) all these things are dated. When you are finished, even after rewrites and editing it can take years to get an agent, years to get an editor, and standard time from acceptance to publication is about a year. If you have an agent with an acceptance lined up right now you will still be a year behind the trend... and what if (fat chance, but what if) osama is caught or killed in that year. They might pull your book because of this.
I also have concerns, like how is Fatima invited to a bbq at the embassy, unless it's a public event (in which case you need to do a little research to see how likely this is.)
>>6) They figure out the girl he was hitting on was the daughter of a man that co-authored and enforces the patriot act.
You really really need to watch facts here. If you want to use something realistic be aware that this person might not really exisit or they might take offense at being in your book.
>>7) They hang out with Tiffany and learn that she grew up on a diamond estate in South Africa-
Uh No. I'm serious here, no one with any knowledge of south africa will buy that. South Africa is a very dangerous, volitile place highly prone to kidnappings if anyone even thinks you might, possibly be important. No rich person with a mind would let their child grow up in South Africa.
>>They bribe themselves out of prison (dont worry- I make it make sense).
I don't think so. No one will buy this. Not with all the people in Gitmo right now.

I agree with Ice, not only do you not seem to have a plot, the characters seem about as clueless and aimless in their actions as the story, and if the over all plot is that they get arrested because of the discussion about the terrorist then that's weak. That's a new story, sure, but not a book plot unless it's personal narrative. I also agree about the comment on Muslims. Flirting with a western woman seems out of character. While you could go somewhere with this plot (I can think of some much more interesting things to do with it than three rich girls talking with each other) it's not got a strong plot at all right now. If you want to write about Muslim characters you really need to understand the religion, especially a sensitive one like Islam.
The fact that you obviously feel you're missing something important shows that you have promise and with some spit and polish I'm sure you can turn the book around. Is this the 120000 word novel you said you were working on in another thread? If so I really do not feel you have enough meat to your plot for this to be strong.
 

nicegrrl

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nah, tis real...

Your description of your story at the summary level is supect. Harry Potter and Dan Brown, complicated but linear? Of course I am immediately suspect of any one who compares themselves, or their stories to the "hot tickets" of the moment.

I dont know who to compare myself to. I dont read books with plots like this. I read books which other people think have no plots. But Im not going to write a book that has no plot.

When reading your summary I am immediately take by two things. 1) Almost everything appears to be dialog. I would get irritated with a book all about dialog, much less apparent political dialog. 2) all these things are dated. When you are finished, even after rewrites and editing it can take years to get an agent, years to get an editor, and standard time from acceptance to publication is about a year. If you have an agent with an acceptance lined up right now you will still be a year behind the trend... and what if (fat chance, but what if) osama is caught or killed in that year. They might pull your book because of this.

I think it wont be a problem. Osama Bin Ladin has no connection to the story. His fictional nephew's connection with terrorists has nothing to do with Osama being arrested.

I also have concerns, like how is Fatima invited to a bbq at the embassy, unless it's a public event (in which case you need to do a little research to see how likely this is.)

I used to live across from the ambassador and I was invited to a 4th of July bbq through a friend. Tis likely.

>>6) They figure out the girl he was hitting on was the daughter of a man that co-authored and enforces the patriot act.
You really really need to watch facts here. If you want to use something realistic be aware that this person might not really exisit or they might take offense at being in your book.

He does exist. He would get mad except Im fictionalizing him to an unrecognizable point.

>>7) They hang out with Tiffany and learn that she grew up on a diamond estate in South Africa-
Uh No. I'm serious here, no one with any knowledge of south africa will buy that. South Africa is a very dangerous, volitile place highly prone to kidnappings if anyone even thinks you might, possibly be important. No rich person with a mind would let their child grow up in South Africa.

Tis also true. I wont say who exactly this person is, but her father was associated with the author of the patriot act and he raised his family on an estate belonging to a silent partner with the Debeers in SA for 3 years(also wont say the name) because he was the lawyer to that family. This was back in the day under Afrikaner control.

>>They bribe themselves out of prison (dont worry- I make it make sense).
I don't think so. No one will buy this. Not with all the people in Gitmo right now.

Well, Im talking about a secret black site prison in Poland. Since the govt denies these even exist (when they clearly do), then I can make up whatever I want about them. If bond can break out of prison, fatima can break out of prison. This is fiction. And they dont break out of prison, they bribe someone to send a letter to someone else that uses his connections to legitimately get them out of prison.

I agree with Ice, not only do you not seem to have a plot, the characters seem about as clueless and aimless in their actions as the story, and if the over all plot is that they get arrested because of the discussion about the terrorist then that's weak. That's a new story, sure, but not a book plot unless it's personal narrative.

They dont get arrested for that reason. They dont know why they get arrested. Thats where the real adventure starts. They try and figure out why they get arrested and the reason is substantial.


I also agree about the comment on Muslims. Flirting with a western woman seems out of character. While you could go somewhere with this plot (I can think of some much more interesting things to do with it than three rich girls talking with each other) it's not got a strong plot at all right now. If you want to write about Muslim characters you really need to understand the religion, especially a sensitive one like Islam.

???? Im sorry you want to orientalize people to this degree, but a lot of my family is made up of Indian muslims and I hate to tell you, but muslims arent all veiled up and clueless about westernization. Plenty of them are just not religious and not raised by religious parents. Seriously- plenty. Dont you know any normal muslims?!! And I used to live in St. Johns wood in London, which is filled with rich Saudis who used to talk to me everyday and they are not hillbillies from caravans. Plenty of them go to elite universities and dress and speak like they are completely western. In any case, Faisal Bin Ladin is a composite character of a Syrian prince that went to boarding school in the US and various thugs I know.

Its sad that you seem to think all muslims are fundementalists or strict. I just dont know what to say. Muslims in the western world are often westernized!! I know muslim skanks and potheads and lesbians and everything. And BTW, Im not muslim. Im hindu and we do not worship cows and feel conservative about dating. I can suck a golfball out of a garden hose just as well as the next sorority girl. FYI, I knew loads of muslim sorority girls in college.

The fact that you obviously feel you're missing something important shows that you have promise and with some spit and polish I'm sure you can turn the book around. Is this the 120000 word novel you said you were working on in another thread? If so I really do not feel you have enough meat to your plot for this to be strong.

That wasnt the whole plot. That was the first 30K words or so. And I think Im going for 90K now.
 
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