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06-23-2006, 05:07 PM nikki vbmenu_register("postmenu_664893", true);
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quoting movie lines and a dead poet
Do I need to obtain permission to quote lines from the movie "It's A Wonderful Life" in my novel, also from James Whitcomb Riley?
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I'm not the expert on this but I would say that you would have to have a permission to quote from a movie (same as for parts of a song). I'm not sure what the copyright status is on Riley or whether his works are now public domain. You might be able to do a little surfing on the net looking for places to find out the answer on Riley. Puma
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06-23-2006, 05:50 PM Medievalist vbmenu_register("postmenu_664977", true);
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Quote them for now, and include information on the source.
Let the editor deal with it, or advise you when you've got a contract.
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06-23-2006, 06:02 PM blacbird vbmenu_register("postmenu_665000", true);
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In a novel, you will generally need to get permission to quote from any work still under copyright protection. This would certainly include the script of "It's a Wonderful Life" (or any post-silent era movie). The U.S. copyright provisions basically work such that anything published prior to 1923 is now in public domain. Therefore, Riley's 19th-Century poetry is fair game, but the movie likely is not.
caw.
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06-23-2006, 06:20 PM Medievalist vbmenu_register("postmenu_665041", true);
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The reason I said to wait until you have a publisher and access to counsel is that It's a Wonderful Life has a complicated history re: copyright. You need an expert.
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06-23-2006, 08:49 PM maestrowork vbmenu_register("postmenu_665345", true);
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Movie quotes are copyrighted. Fair use probably won't extend to novels, so you probably need permission, but you should probably make sure.
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06-23-2006, 09:05 PM Serena Casey vbmenu_register("postmenu_665384", true);
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I have a question: what about songs? I've seen lyrics quoted in books sometimes; does that mean the author got specific permission for each instance?
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06-23-2006, 09:14 PM maestrowork vbmenu_register("postmenu_665399", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena Casey
I have a question: what about songs? I've seen lyrics quoted in books sometimes; does that mean the author got specific permission for each instance?
Yes. Song lyrics are copyrighted.
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06-23-2006, 09:43 PM blacbird vbmenu_register("postmenu_665453", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maestrowork
Yes. Song lyrics are copyrighted.
Correct. Unless the songs are pre-1923, like other printed poetry and prose, say the songs of Stephen Foster, or the National Anthem, etc., which are in public domain.
caw.
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06-23-2006, 10:30 PM GabeWhite vbmenu_register("postmenu_665559", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maestrowork
Movie quotes are copyrighted. Fair use probably won't extend to novels, so you probably need permission, but you should probably make sure.
I don't understand much copyright law. Why wouldn't Fair Use apply to fiction?
Or, if it's just a line or so...de minimis...
-Gabe
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06-23-2006, 10:37 PM Medievalist vbmenu_register("postmenu_665577", true);
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First of all, fair use isn't a right; it's a potential rationale, and a court determines if in fact a use is "fair" or not. There are some guidelines--an eductional use might qualify, or use in a critical study, but publishers aren't going to risk a lawsuit; so they will need permission.
Don't sweat this while you're writing; just keep track of what you use, where it's from, where you use it, and a complete bibliographic record (author, title, publisher, data page, library . . .)
Then when you've got a publisher you can discuss how to handle permissions.
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Last edited by Medievalist : 06-23-2006 at 11:20 PM.
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06-23-2006, 11:07 PM maestrowork vbmenu_register("postmenu_665674", true);
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One reason why I don't think fair use extends to novels is that fiction is sold for profit, and when you use someone else's stuff in your work for profit, chances are you can't get away with "fair use." Ask a lawyer if you are not sure.
I agree, keep writing, don't worry about it now. However, when you are ready to submit, you do have to worry about it. Some editors might not be amused when they see you use lyrics, etc. in your ms. without permission.
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06-24-2006, 01:07 AM Jamesaritchie vbmenu_register("postmenu_665840", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeWhite
I don't understand much copyright law. Why wouldn't Fair Use apply to fiction?
Or, if it's just a line or so...de minimis...
-Gabe
Primarily because the law lists all the ways you can use copyrighted material is pretty plain language. Use of copyrighted material in fiction is not on the list of allowed fair use.
Just a line or so or not, you're still using someone else's creative property in order to generate a profit for yourself. They created it, you didn't. They own it, you don't.
"Fair Use" is meant primarily for education or news use, not to generate a profit from your own fiction.
Fair use law can be murky, but the murkiness usually shows up in the area of nonfiction, not fiction. From the U.S. Copyright website.
"The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.
The U.S. Copyright Offfice strongly suggests you should always seek permission to use any copyrighted work, even in areas where the courts have indicated fair use is legal. You just never know when someone will take you to court.
But for use in fiction, you definitely need permission.
Fair use does not mean anyone can use anything they want, as long as it's short. This is a misunderstanding of the law. Fair use means you can use copyrighted material only if your use fits what copyright law states is legal.
Now, James Whitcomb Riley (Who lived an easy bike ride from where I now live.) died in 1916, so all his work is now in public domain. This means you can quote it all you wish.
But for any work still under copyright, you need permission. Copyright owners can be highy protective of their work, and if you don't seek permission, you'll likely find yourself in court.
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06-24-2006, 12:28 PM Serena Casey vbmenu_register("postmenu_666670", true);
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Quote:
Correct. Unless the songs are pre-1923, like other printed poetry and prose, say the songs of Stephen Foster, or the National Anthem, etc., which are in public domain.
Wow, it's close for me. I want to use a line from "Someone To Watch Over Me" which was written by the Gershwins in 1926. Maybe in three more years, then...
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06-24-2006, 01:03 PM blacbird vbmenu_register("postmenu_666713", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena Casey
Wow, it's close for me. I want to use a line from "Someone To Watch Over Me" which was written by the Gershwins in 1926. Maybe in three more years, then...
Nope. The Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act of 1998 effectively froze the automatic release of material into public domain until 2018. You'll have to wait until 2021, at the earliest (if there isn't another extension of the terms before then).
caw.
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06-24-2006, 01:12 PM Jamesaritchie vbmenu_register("postmenu_666719", true);
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copyright
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena Casey
Wow, it's close for me. I want to use a line from "Someone To Watch Over Me" which was written by the Gershwins in 1926. Maybe in three more years, then...
Blacbird is right. Once 2018 arrives, new material will be released into public domain each year. Until then the date remains the same.
But you can always check. Not everyting was renewed when it should have been, and some things from as late as 1949 are in public domain purely because the copyright holder failed to renew the copyright when it expired.
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06-24-2006, 03:10 PM Serena Casey vbmenu_register("postmenu_666946", true);
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Thanks for the clarification!
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06-24-2006, 09:24 PM ted_curtis vbmenu_register("postmenu_667589", true);
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Considering the relative hassle of gaining permissions, I was wondering how many of the published authors here have actually used copyrighted material? It seems to me that unless it's absolutely vital to the plot, I'd just edit it out or pick an older quote.
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06-24-2006, 09:34 PM maestrowork vbmenu_register("postmenu_667610", true);
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I wrote with songs in my head sometimes and I put the lyrics in, to help me write. But before I sent out the ms., I took the lyrics out and guess what, it didn't impact the plot or characterization at all. I knew then that it really didn't make a difference. Why?
1. People who are familiar with the song already know the lyrics or the gist
2. People who are not familiar with the song would probably not care and you might as well just write something totally new and original and it wouldn't make difference to them...
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Yesterday, 12:04 AM blacbird vbmenu_register("postmenu_667841", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesaritchie
Blacbird is right. Once 2018 arrives, new material will be released into public domain each year. Until then the date remains the same.
But you can always check. Not everyting was renewed when it should have been, and some things from as late as 1949 are in public domain purely because the copyright holder failed to renew the copyright when it expired.
James is correct, but bear in mind that it's not always an easy thing to find out. I'm with Maestro here (I suspect James is, too); if you're leaning on quotes from pre-existing material to enhance your story, you might need to examine your story. It's not a no-no, obviously (Stephen King, among others, is known for doing this), but like anything else, to use the device of quoted material effectively, it must be a necessity. Otherwise, better to leave it out, for a whole lot of reasons.
caw.
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Yesterday, 10:39 AM Jamesaritchie vbmenu_register("postmenu_668370", true);
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Copyrighted material
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted_curtis
Considering the relative hassle of gaining permissions, I was wondering how many of the published authors here have actually used copyrighted material? It seems to me that unless it's absolutely vital to the plot, I'd just edit it out or pick an older quote.
If you're Stephen King, permission to use lyrics is zero problem. For most of the rest of us, it can be a major problem, and even if we received permission, a pubisher still may not want to use something because it can cause hassles down the line.
So I never use copyrighted material. I do, however, reference it now and again. A redneck bar scene might have a line or two that reads, "A drunk carefully shoved quarters into the jukebox, punched some buttons, and Willie Nelson started telling us about blue eyes crying in the rain."
Another class of drinking establishment might be somewhat similar, but it would use a different type of bar patron, and "Frank Sinatra started telling us how he did it all his way."
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Yesterday, 01:23 PM Shadow_Ferret vbmenu_register("postmenu_668763", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medievalist
The reason I said to wait until you have a publisher and access to counsel is that It's a Wonderful Life has a complicated history re: copyright. You need an expert.
Exactly. For a while there, It's a Wonderful Life had fallen into public domain. That was the reason EVERY station in the world broadcast it nearly EVERY day until Christmas. But I believe someone must have renewed it because now it's back in limited distribution.
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Yesterday, 01:42 PM Medievalist vbmenu_register("postmenu_668795", true);
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Speaking as someone who has licensed lyrics and poetry for King, it's not a shoe-in even for him. In fact in at least one case, ASCAP charged more because it was King, rather than following the industry conventions of tying pricing to the print run.
Seriously, keep track of what you use, ask yourself if it's really important or worthwhile, but don't sweat it until you've got a publisher. Either they'll say, yes, or no, either they'll offer clearance support or tell you you're on your own, and give you form letters.
But you have to first finish the book, then find a publisher.
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Yesterday, 08:02 PM Jamesaritchie vbmenu_register("postmenu_669522", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_Ferret
Exactly. For a while there, It's a Wonderful Life had fallen into public domain. That was the reason EVERY station in the world broadcast it nearly EVERY day until Christmas. But I believe someone must have renewed it because now it's back in limited distribution.
Once something is in public domain the copyright can't be renewed.
It is true that someone accidentally failed to renew the copyright, but because "It's A Wonderful Life" is a derivative work, it remained copyright protected, and the many stations that started airing it got into more than a bit of trouble over this.
This is actually a good warning. Even when a work has not had the copyright renewed, it may still be under full copyright protection because of being a derivative work, so you have to make very, very sure before you use something.
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Yesterday, 08:24 PM Jamesaritchie vbmenu_register("postmenu_669561", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medievalist
Speaking as someone who has licensed lyrics and poetry for King, it's not a shoe-in even for him. In fact in at least one case, ASCAP charged more because it was King, rather than following the industry conventions of tying pricing to the print run.
Seriously, keep track of what you use, ask yourself if it's really important or worthwhile, but don't sweat it until you've got a publisher. Either they'll say, yes, or no, either they'll offer clearance support or tell you you're on your own, and give you form letters.
But you have to first finish the book, then find a publisher.
But with Stephen King, it gets done, whatever the cost or the problems. For the rest of us, it probably won't. I've talked to several editors who have been told to not even consider work that contains copyrighted material.
The best time to consider is before you even begin to write the novel. If you're a new writer, using copyrighted material puts a roadblock in your path that may well be impassable, and there's just no reason to do so. It's already tough enough to find a publisher, and using material that many editors are told to not even consider just makes the process of getting published infinitely more difficult. Just don't do it at all.
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quoting movie lines and a dead poet
Do I need to obtain permission to quote lines from the movie "It's A Wonderful Life" in my novel, also from James Whitcomb Riley?
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I'm not the expert on this but I would say that you would have to have a permission to quote from a movie (same as for parts of a song). I'm not sure what the copyright status is on Riley or whether his works are now public domain. You might be able to do a little surfing on the net looking for places to find out the answer on Riley. Puma
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Quote them for now, and include information on the source.
Let the editor deal with it, or advise you when you've got a contract.
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In a novel, you will generally need to get permission to quote from any work still under copyright protection. This would certainly include the script of "It's a Wonderful Life" (or any post-silent era movie). The U.S. copyright provisions basically work such that anything published prior to 1923 is now in public domain. Therefore, Riley's 19th-Century poetry is fair game, but the movie likely is not.
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The reason I said to wait until you have a publisher and access to counsel is that It's a Wonderful Life has a complicated history re: copyright. You need an expert.
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Movie quotes are copyrighted. Fair use probably won't extend to novels, so you probably need permission, but you should probably make sure.
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I have a question: what about songs? I've seen lyrics quoted in books sometimes; does that mean the author got specific permission for each instance?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena Casey
I have a question: what about songs? I've seen lyrics quoted in books sometimes; does that mean the author got specific permission for each instance?
Yes. Song lyrics are copyrighted.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maestrowork
Yes. Song lyrics are copyrighted.
Correct. Unless the songs are pre-1923, like other printed poetry and prose, say the songs of Stephen Foster, or the National Anthem, etc., which are in public domain.
caw.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maestrowork
Movie quotes are copyrighted. Fair use probably won't extend to novels, so you probably need permission, but you should probably make sure.
I don't understand much copyright law. Why wouldn't Fair Use apply to fiction?
Or, if it's just a line or so...de minimis...
-Gabe
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First of all, fair use isn't a right; it's a potential rationale, and a court determines if in fact a use is "fair" or not. There are some guidelines--an eductional use might qualify, or use in a critical study, but publishers aren't going to risk a lawsuit; so they will need permission.
Don't sweat this while you're writing; just keep track of what you use, where it's from, where you use it, and a complete bibliographic record (author, title, publisher, data page, library . . .)
Then when you've got a publisher you can discuss how to handle permissions.
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One reason why I don't think fair use extends to novels is that fiction is sold for profit, and when you use someone else's stuff in your work for profit, chances are you can't get away with "fair use." Ask a lawyer if you are not sure.
I agree, keep writing, don't worry about it now. However, when you are ready to submit, you do have to worry about it. Some editors might not be amused when they see you use lyrics, etc. in your ms. without permission.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeWhite
I don't understand much copyright law. Why wouldn't Fair Use apply to fiction?
Or, if it's just a line or so...de minimis...
-Gabe
Primarily because the law lists all the ways you can use copyrighted material is pretty plain language. Use of copyrighted material in fiction is not on the list of allowed fair use.
Just a line or so or not, you're still using someone else's creative property in order to generate a profit for yourself. They created it, you didn't. They own it, you don't.
"Fair Use" is meant primarily for education or news use, not to generate a profit from your own fiction.
Fair use law can be murky, but the murkiness usually shows up in the area of nonfiction, not fiction. From the U.S. Copyright website.
"The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.
The U.S. Copyright Offfice strongly suggests you should always seek permission to use any copyrighted work, even in areas where the courts have indicated fair use is legal. You just never know when someone will take you to court.
But for use in fiction, you definitely need permission.
Fair use does not mean anyone can use anything they want, as long as it's short. This is a misunderstanding of the law. Fair use means you can use copyrighted material only if your use fits what copyright law states is legal.
Now, James Whitcomb Riley (Who lived an easy bike ride from where I now live.) died in 1916, so all his work is now in public domain. This means you can quote it all you wish.
But for any work still under copyright, you need permission. Copyright owners can be highy protective of their work, and if you don't seek permission, you'll likely find yourself in court.
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Quote:
Correct. Unless the songs are pre-1923, like other printed poetry and prose, say the songs of Stephen Foster, or the National Anthem, etc., which are in public domain.
Wow, it's close for me. I want to use a line from "Someone To Watch Over Me" which was written by the Gershwins in 1926. Maybe in three more years, then...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena Casey
Wow, it's close for me. I want to use a line from "Someone To Watch Over Me" which was written by the Gershwins in 1926. Maybe in three more years, then...
Nope. The Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act of 1998 effectively froze the automatic release of material into public domain until 2018. You'll have to wait until 2021, at the earliest (if there isn't another extension of the terms before then).
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copyright
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena Casey
Wow, it's close for me. I want to use a line from "Someone To Watch Over Me" which was written by the Gershwins in 1926. Maybe in three more years, then...
Blacbird is right. Once 2018 arrives, new material will be released into public domain each year. Until then the date remains the same.
But you can always check. Not everyting was renewed when it should have been, and some things from as late as 1949 are in public domain purely because the copyright holder failed to renew the copyright when it expired.
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Thanks for the clarification!
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Considering the relative hassle of gaining permissions, I was wondering how many of the published authors here have actually used copyrighted material? It seems to me that unless it's absolutely vital to the plot, I'd just edit it out or pick an older quote.
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I wrote with songs in my head sometimes and I put the lyrics in, to help me write. But before I sent out the ms., I took the lyrics out and guess what, it didn't impact the plot or characterization at all. I knew then that it really didn't make a difference. Why?
1. People who are familiar with the song already know the lyrics or the gist
2. People who are not familiar with the song would probably not care and you might as well just write something totally new and original and it wouldn't make difference to them...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesaritchie
Blacbird is right. Once 2018 arrives, new material will be released into public domain each year. Until then the date remains the same.
But you can always check. Not everyting was renewed when it should have been, and some things from as late as 1949 are in public domain purely because the copyright holder failed to renew the copyright when it expired.
James is correct, but bear in mind that it's not always an easy thing to find out. I'm with Maestro here (I suspect James is, too); if you're leaning on quotes from pre-existing material to enhance your story, you might need to examine your story. It's not a no-no, obviously (Stephen King, among others, is known for doing this), but like anything else, to use the device of quoted material effectively, it must be a necessity. Otherwise, better to leave it out, for a whole lot of reasons.
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Copyrighted material
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted_curtis
Considering the relative hassle of gaining permissions, I was wondering how many of the published authors here have actually used copyrighted material? It seems to me that unless it's absolutely vital to the plot, I'd just edit it out or pick an older quote.
If you're Stephen King, permission to use lyrics is zero problem. For most of the rest of us, it can be a major problem, and even if we received permission, a pubisher still may not want to use something because it can cause hassles down the line.
So I never use copyrighted material. I do, however, reference it now and again. A redneck bar scene might have a line or two that reads, "A drunk carefully shoved quarters into the jukebox, punched some buttons, and Willie Nelson started telling us about blue eyes crying in the rain."
Another class of drinking establishment might be somewhat similar, but it would use a different type of bar patron, and "Frank Sinatra started telling us how he did it all his way."
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Originally Posted by Medievalist
The reason I said to wait until you have a publisher and access to counsel is that It's a Wonderful Life has a complicated history re: copyright. You need an expert.
Exactly. For a while there, It's a Wonderful Life had fallen into public domain. That was the reason EVERY station in the world broadcast it nearly EVERY day until Christmas. But I believe someone must have renewed it because now it's back in limited distribution.
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Speaking as someone who has licensed lyrics and poetry for King, it's not a shoe-in even for him. In fact in at least one case, ASCAP charged more because it was King, rather than following the industry conventions of tying pricing to the print run.
Seriously, keep track of what you use, ask yourself if it's really important or worthwhile, but don't sweat it until you've got a publisher. Either they'll say, yes, or no, either they'll offer clearance support or tell you you're on your own, and give you form letters.
But you have to first finish the book, then find a publisher.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_Ferret
Exactly. For a while there, It's a Wonderful Life had fallen into public domain. That was the reason EVERY station in the world broadcast it nearly EVERY day until Christmas. But I believe someone must have renewed it because now it's back in limited distribution.
Once something is in public domain the copyright can't be renewed.
It is true that someone accidentally failed to renew the copyright, but because "It's A Wonderful Life" is a derivative work, it remained copyright protected, and the many stations that started airing it got into more than a bit of trouble over this.
This is actually a good warning. Even when a work has not had the copyright renewed, it may still be under full copyright protection because of being a derivative work, so you have to make very, very sure before you use something.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medievalist
Speaking as someone who has licensed lyrics and poetry for King, it's not a shoe-in even for him. In fact in at least one case, ASCAP charged more because it was King, rather than following the industry conventions of tying pricing to the print run.
Seriously, keep track of what you use, ask yourself if it's really important or worthwhile, but don't sweat it until you've got a publisher. Either they'll say, yes, or no, either they'll offer clearance support or tell you you're on your own, and give you form letters.
But you have to first finish the book, then find a publisher.
But with Stephen King, it gets done, whatever the cost or the problems. For the rest of us, it probably won't. I've talked to several editors who have been told to not even consider work that contains copyrighted material.
The best time to consider is before you even begin to write the novel. If you're a new writer, using copyrighted material puts a roadblock in your path that may well be impassable, and there's just no reason to do so. It's already tough enough to find a publisher, and using material that many editors are told to not even consider just makes the process of getting published infinitely more difficult. Just don't do it at all.