Question about the process

Just start writing, and let your characters create the story. Then, re-write and re-write. You will be surprised how much the story evolves. Usually my books start with only a single sentence. Most of the time I am not entirely sure how it's going to end. Just write.

Exactly, everyone is different. Personally, I'd just start writing and see where it goes - if there's a story there to be told, I bet you'll find it pretty quickly. Just be comfortable in the knowledge that you're not committing yourself to every single word you type and you'll be fine.

book

feldspar said:

So I have a ton of ideas floating around in my head, some more fleshed out than others and I want to just start writing. Problem is, for one book I have a lot of the characters fleshed out but not a lot of the plot. For another idea I have the exact opposite, a lot of plot but not the characters. Or I don't know what the ending is going to be. Or this, or that.

What do you know when you put pen to paper (figuratively, of course)? Do you always know how the book is going to end? Do you always know the plot twist? Do you always know exactly who your characters are? I mean, really really know them?

Or does all this just come out while writing? I'm sure everyone is different.

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The only thing I know when I sit down to write is whatgenre teh book will be. I don't now a thing about the plot, I have no clue who the characterws will be, and I don't know the ending. I don't want to know any of these things.

I put an interesting character in an interesting situation, and just go from there.

My trunk screenplay was one I wrote from an outline. It seemed to work all right, but I found myself wondering how I would get from one point to another fairly often. I just wrote a short story where the whole thing pretty much appeared in my mind as a clear story, too.

But when I started the novel I'm working on, I just really had one character in mind, and he wasn't even someone I knew very well. And one Big Idea - interestingly, it's one that I took from Mr. Ritchie in a discussion we had on divining rods, and he's posting right above me. I just set that character adrift in a boat on the ocean with several other characters, and things just started moving from there. I did have to go back and erase quite a few characters that seemed superfluous when the story started to form, but now it's well underway and going on its own without any outlining or anything.

Stephen King compared his technique for writing to digging a fossil out of the ground. You just find something sticking up and start carefully digging. In my novel, I think I had a couple extra bones on top of my fossil that confused me for a while. Now that I've set them aside the thing seems to be taking shape. I still don't know what will happen at the end, although I have some hints right now. I may be wrong and it ends totally differently.

Just sit down, open your word processor, and put some of those characters someplace interesting.

My current novel started out as a writing prompt: "Let me introduce you to..."
I also let the story write itself, unless somebody does something that is out of character.

I enjoy writing much more when I have no idea how it will end. Then it's like I get to discover as I write, much the way a reader would. You'd be surprised how much your characters "know" that you don't. I was 50,000 words into my current ms before I discovered why the bad guy had taken my protagonist hostage. And when I "found out" I was stunned. If you plan too much the spontenaity goes out of your writing. Having solid characters is a great place to start.

Conversely, having a plot can help you develop characters. Have stuff happen and see how they react. Suddenly you'll find stuff that's much better than you could have thought of just by outlining.

Have fun.

Sometimes I like to look at the writing of a book in terms of the famous saying of (I think) Michelangelo, when asked how he sculpted the David or some other very famous piece, and he said that he simply took away all of the marble that wasn't the shape he saw within. I think that perhaps we writers have to start with making the marble: then we get to move on to taking away everything that isn't the story.

(Personally, it has taken me a very long time to get to the actual carving; I had a lot of marble-making to go through. But I am here at last, and the shape is starting to come through very clearly.)

feldspar said:

So I have a ton of ideas floating around in my head, some more fleshed out than others and I want to just start writing. Problem is, for one book I have a lot of the characters fleshed out but not a lot of the plot. For another idea I have the exact opposite, a lot of plot but not the characters. Or I don't know what the ending is going to be. Or this, or that.

What do you know when you put pen to paper (figuratively, of course)? Do you always know how the book is going to end? Do you always know the plot twist? Do you always know exactly who your characters are? I mean, really really know them?

Or does all this just come out while writing? I'm sure everyone is different.

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Your last sentence is your answer. Finding what works for you is the thing--and even if you find a "system" that feels right, you may change it after your first novel or more. For what it's worth I usually start with an idea. Sometimes this comes to me in a sentence. Then I put down a daily word goal and write the EL Doctorow method -- seeing only as far as I can write that day. I don't want to know the ending until I get there. That way (I write mysteries in novels, but for short stories this works for me too) the reader won't know what will happen either. I can't imagine having a character without a plot idea first. But hey, if that works for you, great. I know a novel is a marathon, so in my current (4th) novel, I'm doing more revising on each chapter before continuing, waiting at least a day between the rough draft and the revision. After a revision I read it again aloud, revising as I go. Then I wait another day or two and polish. It's a slower way to write the novel and not the daily word count goal my first 3 were written with, but I'm hoping when I'm done with the last chapter I'll have a much more publishable book.

A question for James Ritchie (or anyone else who uses the Situational method)

Do you know of any books that detail the method that you use for writing? I know that many pro authors use situational writing, but honestly, I've read a lot of books and none mention the technique except in passing.

Can every type of story be written using this method, or does it have limitations to being most effective with certain types/genres of stories?

Up to this point, I've done as most people do here -- sit down and write something and see where it goes.

However, I have horrific problems with plotting. I write good scenes, but keeping the story going somewhere is hard for me. I need a bit more structure to make sure I actually end up at the end (or figure out where the end is) instead of wandering through lovely scenes and dialog with no connectivity.

I'm trying a more solid outlining method this time (and since I'm a very a-b-c type person, I'm using the general approach outlined in Karen Wiesner's book 'First Draft in 30 days' -- not that I think I'll actually get a draft in 30 days, but the worksheets she presents and process of outlining seems very intuitive to me. I know you can't 'learn' writing from reading a book, but I needed some help with the organizational stuff the first time I try it. I've never actually known how a story is supposed to end before I wrote before, and I'm worried that it will feel too rigid to me, but I'm going to try.

I usually start with characters and then see what happens to them, and I try very hard to avoid revising as I go (I tend to get stuck on finding the perfect way to say X and don't move on enough).

Usually, I start with characters, their histories, and some idea of how they will interact in the plot. The rest writes itself as I go along. I almost never know how the thing will end, and if I do know anything about the end, it's only a small aspect that I know I want included. The endings often surprise me. It's fun!

BuffStuff said:

A question for James Ritchie (or anyone else who uses the Situational method)

Do you know of any books that detail the method that you use for writing? I know that many pro authors use situational writing, but honestly, I've read a lot of books and none mention the technique except in passing.

Can every type of story be written using this method, or does it have limitations to being most effective with certain types/genres of stories?

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Many pro writers do write this way, but when described, it's usually done so almost in passing because it doesn't really lend itself to the same breakdown planned and plotted writign does. Another probolem is that the term "situational writing" is a fairly new term to describe a very old process, so even how-to books by writers who write this way may describe it differently.

The two books that comes closest are Bradbury's "Zen in the Art of Writing," and King's "On Writing." King actually is a situational writer, the most famous one, in fact, and Bradbury also writes this way, but the term hadn't been coined when he wrote his wonderful book. Both feel the same way about plotting.

King says, "Plot is the good writer's last resort and the dullard's first choice."

Bradbury says, "Remember: Plot is no more than footprints left in the snow after your characters have run by on their way to incredible destinations. Plot is observed after the fact rather than before. It cannot precede action. It is the chart that remains when an action is trhough. That is all plot should ever be."

This doesn't mean good writers never plot, but it does mean some very good writers in every genre would rather not, thank you, and do just fine.

And, yes, it works with every genre, and writers in every genre do write this way. But it does mean you have to know how to write an opening. The secret is setting up the rest of the novel in the opening so that you don't have to plot it. You put an interesting character in an interesting situation, and you ask a question or pose a problem, or both. Then you tell a story that answers the question or solves the problem.

The real secret is telling a story. If you tell a story, plot, and sublot, are automatic byproducts.

If you haven't read "Zen in the Art of Writing," or "On Writing," go out and get them. If you have read them, read both again, this time looking for what Bradbury and King have to say that touches on situational writing.

Thanks for the quick reply, James!

feldspar said:

for one book I have a lot of the characters fleshed out but not a lot of the plot. For another idea I have the exact opposite, a lot of plot but not the characters. Or I don't know what the ending is going to be. Or this, or that.

What do you know when you put pen to paper (figuratively, of course)? Do you always know how the book is going to end? Do you always know the plot twist? Do you always know exactly who your characters are? I mean, really really know them?

Or does all this just come out while writing? I'm sure everyone is different.

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Everybody's different. I iterate between plot and character, a bit like truing a bicycle wheel. (But I'm unpublished, so feel free to ignore me).

Humbly suggest for the first, you tweak the characters and/or their situation until you have a conflict worthy of a novel (as per Stephen King), then either just start writing, or else outline* then write. Give them something to fight, or something to fight about.

For the second, suggest you nail down an outline* (since you already seem to have one at least in your head), then extrapolate the characters from the main action - Who on earth would do that? Why? - then tweak the plot to match the characters.

Good luck
Z

*I think an outline should read like a verbal summary given in a pub, rather than a list of events - http://www.machinima.com/article.php?article=439

Mr. Poopy Pants said:

I think its very important to know how it ends though. The opening and the ending should definately be known when you start. The fun part is filling in the middle.

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It is if that's the way that works for you, but a great many pro writers don't want to know how it ends, and filling in the middle is the hardest and least fun part of the entire writing process. If I knew the ending when I started writing, I wouldn't write it.

I have the same problem. I know that these characters are going to have to do this and that in my story. But getting to know them...is apain in the ***...I just write anywhere when I think of something that could fit in my story.
I have a lot of stories in my head...and I try to fit them in the stories I already have.....I've ended up with 5 major novels....I've only started to write the first one...and i's still in the beggining...the real adventure hasn't started yet lol.
But my problem is seeing the big picture...and going for the details later. My real problems lies in the TIME I rarely get any time at all to write or to think about it.
JUST WRITE IT DOWN SOMEWHERE. ALL THE IDEAS....that's what I did.
I ruined my schoolbooks but hey ..what the hell....they're cool stoires.

Mr. Poopy Pants said:

Well, that would be why I put "I think" at the beginning there and in all fairness there are a great many "pro writers" who prefer it the opposite way. I don't think the kid is looking for a definate answer, just options.

And you don't think the middle is fun? Why do you do it then? Because that would be the part where you tell the story.

For me, I've always seen the ending in my head when I've started, or at the least a quick sketch of it...

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Not a great many that I know. Some, but I doubt they're in the majority, or close to it. Pro writers, not "pro writers."

Other than you, I can't say I know many at all who think the middle is very much fun. You tell the story in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end. The beginning isn't just the few first pages, and the ending isn't merely the last few pages, with the middle being the huge majority of the novel that connects the two.

The middle is, for me, at least, about the middle two hundred pages in a four hundred page novel. And it's Bogville for most pro writers I've know, and certainly for most newbies.

I always enjoy the writing process, but the middle of a novel is the hardest part to write, and it's the part nearly all new writers screw up. Most novels by new writers stop dead right around page 100, just when it's time to start writing the middle of the novel.

I write the middle of the novel because if I didn't the first one hundred pages and the last one hundred pages wouldn't make much sense, and my editor probably wouldn't buy the result. But it is the most difficult part to write, and it is where you have to tread carefully, and it is the most work and the least fun.

Jamesaritchie said:

It is if that's the way that works for you, but a great many pro writers don't want to know how it ends, and filling in the middle is the hardest and least fun part of the entire writing process. If I knew the ending when I started writing, I wouldn't write it.

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I know quite a few writers (they are well published...don't know if that qualifies as "pro") who, like me, know the ending when they start. I don't suffer from mid-book syndrome like many other writers do. To me what matters is the journey, not the destination. It's like any road trip. Knowing I'm going to end up in San Diego doesn't detract in any way from the excitement and adventure of getting there.

Beth

I agree with the 'it is a journey' group. I look at each chapter as a flagstone on the path that is my novel.

And everyone is different, and what works for me might not work for you, and screw all those books on writing. IMO, you can be taught the mechanics and the grammar, but you can't be taught how to be a writer. No book will teach you how to put words to page in a way that will compel others to read your work. When you believe in your heart that you are a writer, everything else will just fall into place.

Even if you never sell a single book.

What I find interesting is the differences in everyone's method. I do well with both meticulous plotting and situational writing.

I find that my process differs for each project and produces interesting results.

I think it's safe to say that all processes have the possibility to produce sound results considering that all writers have their own unique approach.

Oh ho ho, brevity. Isn't it fun? Here, I disagree as well and reiterate Beth's very excellantly stated point. The journey, or middle (which I see as the middle 300 pages of a 500 page book) IS the most fun. Its called the Joyride.

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Although I enjoy writing the middle of the novel to an extent, it is the hardest part for me. I worry that I may end up on a tangent that interferes with continuity. I worry that I will lose my reader. I worry that I have too much or two little.

The beginning and end seem to come together on their own, but the composition of the middle of the novel presents the biggest challenge.

Jamesaritchie said:

The only thing I know when I sit down to write is whatgenre teh book will be. I don't now a thing about the plot, I have no clue who the characterws will be, and I don't know the ending. I don't want to know any of these things.

I put an interesting character in an interesting situation, and just go from there.

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I wrote my first four books much like James. For my fourth novel, for instance, I set myself a date and a time to begin: 1st October 2004, 4 am. I had no idea WHAT I would write, just THAT I would write.
On 30th November of that year, I had a 160000 word first draft. True, that novel still hasn't foudn a publisher but I think that's because it is a very uncommercial theme (historical novel set in a most unsexy and little known location).

With my WIP it's a bit different. I chose a big historical event and decided to write a novel around it; the event was itself a sort of skeleton or rough draft.
I wrote it as a screenplay first, just to develop the story that would flesh out that skeleton. But I wasn't happy with that, and went on to flesh out the screenplay as a novel.

feldspar said:

What do you know when you put pen to paper (figuratively, of course)?

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What the stakes of the story are. For my genre, thriller, it's essential to identifty the stakes because it affects the entire story. We didn't have a good handle on the stakes in our WIP, and it's taken a lot of rewriting to fix that. So, for the next one, we are spending a lot of time making sure that piece is in place.

How the story sets up (first 100 pages). Not having this worked out properly caused a lot of rewrites that rippled through the entire book (i.e., unnecessary chapters needed to compensate for story setup problems).

feldspar said:

Do you always know how the book is going to end?

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A general idea of how it's going to end, with flexibility built in to go with the flow as the story changes. When we first started working on it, co-writer wanted to do the ending first, and what we found was that all of the story influences the ending. It isn't just A+B=C.

feldspar said:

Do you always know the plot twist?

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Nope. Most of the rest of what we will do will be seat of the pants writing. But again, as long as the stakes are in place and the story set up works, a lot of other elements will work like they're supposed to.

feldspar said:

Do you always know exactly who your characters are? I mean, really really know them?

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Nope. Our characters are developed by first contact with the story. However, we do identify the primary main characters and the primary villain. The villain will have his own stakes in the story, based on the story's stakes. If the villain's reason for committing all the mayhem in the story doesn't work right, then the story's not going to work right.

Personally for me, I generally get an idea for the story that involves the very basics of it only. The MC loosely described in my mind, a vague idea of the ending and a setting. Then I just start writting and it becomes more detailed as I go. I get the ideas for plot twists and turns as I write.