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JA Konrath · Apr 1, 2006

KTC said:
The man couldn't write a sentence if his life depended on it. I actually threw the book across the room. Terrible writing. And I do believe that this is not a personal opinion. It's just a matter of fact.

Boy would I love to have five million people throw my book across the room.

Of course yours is a personal opinion, unless you've come up with an objective quantifiable way to distinguish writing talent.

Criticizing a successful writer, and his audience, is sour grapes at best, deep seated narcissism at worst.

Once you sell more copies than Frey, you can make blanket statements about good and bad.

maestrowork · Apr 1, 2006

You can change the names and "identity" of the people in your memoir -- just not the actual events.

maestrowork · Apr 1, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Once you sell more copies than Frey, you can make blanket statements about good and bad.

I don't buy that for a second. Critical thinking and opinions have nothing to do with whether one can out-sell another. It doesn't even have anything to do with whether one writes professionally or not.

KTC · Apr 1, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Boy would I love to have five million people throw my book across the room.

Of course yours is a personal opinion, unless you've come up with an objective quantifiable way to distinguish writing talent.

Criticizing a successful writer, and his audience, is sour grapes at best, deep seated narcissism at worst.

Once you sell more copies than Frey, you can make blanket statements about good and bad.

Jesus! That's the best laugh I had all day. Thank you.

JA Konrath · Apr 2, 2006

maestrowork said:
I don't buy that for a second. Critical thinking and opinions have nothing to do with whether one can out-sell another. It doesn't even have anything to do with whether one writes professionally or not.

Are you saying that success isn't an indication that the writer did something right?

Sassenach · Apr 2, 2006

Right--or wrong--isn't the issue. There's no denying that Danielle Steel and Clive Cussler know how to produce books that please their market. I think they're especially terrible writers. Is that sour grapes? I think not.

Bufty · Apr 2, 2006

And a lot of newcomers try and emulate Danielle Steele - it's usually obvious from the long descriptive preambles, which just don't work in the hands of first-timers.

Serenity · Apr 2, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Are you saying that success isn't an indication that the writer did something right?

Success doesn't necessarily indicate a well-written novel in my opinion. Take dear old Mr. Frey and his book here. I used to work at a well-known book store and, after Ms. Oprah Winfrey praised the book on national television, we couldn't keep enough of the things in stock. So, we put in a special order for a whole bunch (and I mean a couple of *hundred*) right before the proverbial s*** hit the fan.

Do you think we could sell all those books after? Not a chance. Maybe a few here and there, mainly because people were curious about all the talk. But when I quit a couple of months ago, we still had about 20 copies out on the shelves and about 75 or so in the back store room.

Truth in a non-fiction book is very important to me, even though it's not normally a genre that I go for. I was curious about Pieces before, but I honestly wouldn't spend the $16.95 for it now. Especially with gas prices the way they are.

Making up a story about something that never happened to get praises and sell a book is not the way to go. But if changing a name or a place doesn't affect the true story you are telling, I don't see a problem- as long as your honest about it. (a la Dragnet: "The names have been changed to protect the innocent and the guilty" etc) So, if you're going to write a memoire or anything autobiographical, keep the story honest. Keep yourself honest. Because even the smallest of lies can eat at you, the big ones will normally devour you... again, though, just my opinion and personal belief.

JA Konrath · Apr 2, 2006

Sassenach said:
Right--or wrong--isn't the issue. There's no denying that Danielle Steel and Clive Cussler know how to produce books that please their market. I think they're especially terrible writers. Is that sour grapes? I think not.

I agree. You know better than the millions of people who read and appreciate their work.

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2006

JA Konrath said:
I agree. You know better than the millions of people who read and appreciate their work.

You're giving a lot of credits to these "millions" of people. I for one don't take "mass media trend" too seriously.

JA Konrath · Apr 2, 2006

Serenity said:
Success doesn't necessarily indicate a well-written novel in my opinion.

Does it in the opinion of the publisher? The fans? Which opinion counts for the most?

Taste is subjective. Getting on the NYT list isn't subjective.

It amuses me to see people discounting the writing ability of bestselling authors. Obviously someone is enjoying them.

Looking down your nose at any traditionally published book is silly, because someone thought it was good enough--hence it being published. Discounting highly successful books is lamenting a system that you want to be a part of, which makes even less sense.

Whether a bestselling book is to your taste or not, I believe the author deserves respect for doing something that few are able to do. Figuring out why certain authors have millions of fan is something that should be analyzed, not dismissed.

JA Konrath · Apr 2, 2006

maestrowork said:
You're giving a lot of credits to these "millions" of people. Millions of people do not have high school education and they probably don't know good writing from bad. Do I "know better" than them? You bet.

Then you should easily be able to manipulate these stupid folks to buy millions of copies of your book, right? Since you know better?

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2006

I believe I can. But that's not my goal to manipulate millions of people to buy my books.

I agree with you that these best-selling authors are doing "something" right -- perhaps they know EXACTLY what their target audience is and what they like. Perhaps they have the "genre" thing down pat. They know their products and they can mass produce it, over and over again. These are all valid. But that doesn't mean they're GOOD writing. It just means they find an audience and be able to keep it. Anyone who's been in business long enough knows that sales don't always equal quality. Just go to your local supermarket and you can see crap everywhere, but there are always someone who's going to buy that crappy box of cereal that you wouldn't want to feed your own children. It doesn't make it "good" -- that makes it a viable product for certain people.

I believe it's Stephen King who said (and I paraphrase): Most writers are only competent. Only a handful are actually "good."

Of course, everything is relative. Some people's crap is another person's treasure.

JA Konrath · Apr 2, 2006

maestrowork said:
I believe I can. But that's not my goal to manipulate millions of people to buy my books.

Really? You expect them to find you in a vacuum? You expect to make sales based on the quality of the work, rather than publicity, advertizing, marketing, and promotion?

maestrowork said:
I agree with you that these best-selling authors are doing "something" right -- perhaps they know EXACTLY what their target audience is and what they like. Perhaps they have the "genre" thing down pat. They know their products and they can mass produce it, over and over again. These are all valid. But that doesn't mean they're GOOD writing. It just means they find an audience and be able to keep it.

I thought that was the goal of publication. Otherwise, just keep a journal to fufill your artistic needs.

maestrowork said:
Anyone who's been in business long enough knows that sales don't always equal quality.

Who dictates quality? Awards? Teachers? The literati? The critics?

I'm going to say popular opinion trumps all. Publishers seem to agree with me, which is why they seem so intent on selling these books that they publish to as wide an audience as posisble.

maestrowork said:
Just go to your local supermarket and you can see crap everywhere, but there are always someone who's going to buy that crappy box of cereal that you wouldn't want to feed your own children.

The thing is: No one believes they're writing crap. So who decides what is crap and what isn't? I say, the public votes with their dollars.

maestrowork said:
Of course, everything is relative. Some people's crap is another person's treasure.

Agreed. So why are you discounting what other people consider treasure?

maestrowork · Apr 2, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Really? You expect them to find you in a vacuum? You expect to make sales based on the quality of the work, rather than publicity, advertizing, marketing, and promotion?

You just said it, JA. A lot of it has to do with publicity, advertising, marketing, promotion -- funny isn't it: none of these have to do with the quality of writing.

I thought that was the goal of publication. Otherwise, just keep a journal to fufill your artistic needs.

You're missing my point. The key word is "manipulate." If publication is about "manipulating" the public, then I think we're in trouble. That's why there was that whole outrage over James Frey. I believe the publishing world still value integrity, for example.

Who dictates quality? Awards? Teachers? The literati? The critics?

All of the above, plus sales. I'm not discounting sales. I'm just saying that your assertion that sales alone dictates quality is too simplistic.

I'm going to say popular opinion trumps all. Publishers seem to agree with me, which is why they seem so intent on selling these books that they publish to as wide an audience as posisble.

Popular opinion is not always right. But we can agree to disagree here.

The thing is: No one believes they're writing crap. So who decides what is crap and what isn't? I say, the public votes with their dollars.

Of course not. But look at the slushpiles. People ARE writing crap.

A lot of being published have to do with luck.

Agreed. So why are you discounting what other people consider treasure?

I'm not discounting anything. I'm just saying, again, that your assertion that "sales" alone is good enough indication of universal quality is simplistic. Yes, perhaps it's all about taste, but I for one am not going to admit that that bar of Lovely Soap from Big Lot for $0.79 is quality (it's definitely a "value" which is a completely different thing -- Marketing 101), and I don't care how many people buy that.

JA Konrath · Apr 2, 2006

maestrowork said:
You just said it, JA. A lot of it has to do with publicity, advertising, marketing, promotion -- funny isn't it: none of these have to do with the quality of writing.

Do you think a publisher would spend the big promotional dollars ona book they didn't believe in? Do publishers buy books they don't think they can sell? What determines what they buy? Especially since every editor truly believes they are buying good books.

maestrowork said:
If publication is about "manipulating" the public, then I think we're in trouble.

Advertising, marketing, promotion, and publicity are all forms of manipulation. Havign an attractive cover is a form of manipulation. So is getting reviewed. Books are a commodity, meant to make money.

maestrowork said:
I'm just saying that your assertion that sales alone dictates quality is too simplistic.

I don't know of any other objective way to determine quality.

maestrowork said:
Popular opinion is not always right. But we can agree to disagree here.

Morality is dicated by the greatest number of people in any given society, and it is impossible for a country to elect a leader stupider than the majority. So I'd say that popularity is right for the majority.

maestrowork said:
Of course not. But look at the slushpiles. People ARE writing crap.

I agree.

maestrowork said:
A lot of being published have to do with luck.

Absolutely. Tough to pin your dreams on luck, though. Tough to teach luck as well.

maestrowork said:
I'm not discounting anything. I'm just saying, again, that your assertion that "sales" alone is good enough indication of universal quality is simplistic. Yes, perhaps it's all about taste, but I for one am not going to admit that that bar of Lovely Soap from Big Lot for $0.79 is quality, and I don't care how many people buy that.

You don't have to buy the soap. But if you noticed one billion people buying the soap, would you buy stock in their company?

Euan H. · Apr 2, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Figuring out why certain authors have millions of fan is something that should be analyzed, not dismissed.

Right on.

Tish Davidson · Apr 2, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Does it in the opinion of the publisher? The fans? Which opinion counts for the most?

Taste is subjective. Getting on the NYT list isn't subjective.

It amuses me to see people discounting the writing ability of bestselling authors. Obviously someone is enjoying them.

Looking down your nose at any traditionally published book is silly, because someone thought it was good enough--hence it being published. Discounting highly successful books is lamenting a system that you want to be a part of, which makes even less sense.

Whether a bestselling book is to your taste or not, I believe the author deserves respect for doing something that few are able to do. Figuring out why certain authors have millions of fan is something that should be analyzed, not dismissed.

A lot of best selling authors start out writing decent books, but once they get a name for themselves or get a series going, the quality declines quickly. The books sell because the author has name recognition, not because the writing is outstanding. Another example is celebrity books that are ghost written and sell because of the celebrity's name, not the quality of the writing. Also social trends propel book sales and television shows. Right now we are in a time (in the US anyway) where there is a heightened interest in the paranormal. I would never advise unpublished writers to analyze what best selling authors are writing and try to imitate it because the publishing cycle is slow and what is hot today may be boring tomorrow.
Best selling is one measure of monetarily success, but does not necessarily equal quality writing. And the NYT best seller list counts only bookstore sales within a given period, not library sales, and not other outlets. Books that sell slowly but steadily over a long period or are bought primarily by libraries and schools don't show up on best seller lists, but can be quite financially successful, too.

MikeAngel · Apr 2, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Boy would I love to have five million people throw my book across the room.

Joe, I'll bet you might eventually get your wish. Me? I'll probably have the same editor throw my book across the room five million times! heh.

(DH, HANK, Mike Angel, Dave)

Sassenach · Apr 2, 2006

JA Konrath said:
I agree. You know better than the millions of people who read and appreciate their work.

I suppose you also believe that the best food in the world is to be had at McDonalds.

I only know what I like, and I know better than to waste any more hours of my life reading about Dirk Pitt. I read a lot of genre fiction, but think Cussler and Steel are lousy

Something being wildly popular doesn't make something good or bad. That seems obvious, but perhaps you can't see that up on your high horse.

JA Konrath · Apr 3, 2006

Sassenach said:
Something being wildly popular doesn't make something good or bad. That seems obvious, but perhaps you can't see that up on your high horse.

I'm not the one criticizing writers, but I'm on the high horse? Interesting.

Whether I believe McDonald's is the best food in the world doesn't matter. I recognize the fact that it's the most popular food in the world, and I don't discount that offhandedly.

JA Konrath · Apr 3, 2006

Celia Cyanide said:
Yes, it's published, yes, it's a best seller, and yes many people consider it treasure, but does that mean I have to like it? No, I haven't published a novel yet, but I am still allowed to have taste and standards!

If you desire to get published, how is thinking that many published books are crap going to help with your quest?

maestrowork · Apr 3, 2006

JA Konrath said:
Whether I believe McDonald's is the best food in the world doesn't matter. I recognize the fact that it's the most popular food in the world, and I don't discount that offhandedly.

Actually I do, especially after watching "Supersize Me."

It doesn't mean, though, that I won't to be McD's once in a while. I just did, the other day, and got a "Big Breakfast" (and it was awful). And once in a while, I'd read a trashy pulp fiction and enjoy it. And I LOVE bad movies. There is time for everything. But I think I am still allowed to say, Yeah, it's bad.

People buy things for many reasons, and many of those reasons have nothing to do with quality. Take for instance, mass market novels at the airport. I've seen people simply grab something off the rack because they had a long layover and they needed something to keep them occupied for a few hours (and they've listened to the entire music collection on their iPods one to many times). They don't care what it is.

And simply saying the book must be good because it gets published or sold... well, I just don't agree.

===============

And LJ, going off topic is par for the course around here. Get with the program. You don't own this thread, buddy.

maestrowork · Apr 3, 2006

JA Konrath said:
If you desire to get published, how is thinking that many published books are crap going to help with your quest?

I am published, so I guess I have the right to call other published books crap now, do I?

Lantern Jack · Apr 3, 2006

"If you desire to get published, how is thinking that many published books are crap going to help with your quest?"

"Something being wildly popular doesn't make something good or bad. That seems obvious, but perhaps you can't see that up on your high horse."

"Of course, everything is relative. Some people's crap is another person's treasure."

I ACTUALLY STOOD UP FOR YOU GUYS. I won't be making that egregious error again. I was talking to someone off-board and he was complaining about how all you guys do is talk off-topic and attack each other's egos and whatnot.

"THIS IS JUST LIKE being back in high school. I'm asking something specific, and all of the cool kids---or the kids who think they're cool---start their own little clique and completely ignore me."

And I don't care if you people are used to rudeness and being off-topic here. It's still rudeness and being off-topic. Being published doesn't give people the right to do what they want whatever they want.

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