J.K. Rowling

Don't intend to be facetious, Elwyn, but - story apart - if it was as easy as reading a 'good' book and copying the style, we'd all have made it.

Elwyn said:

I started the Da Vinci Code thread to get ya'll opinion on Dan Brown's writing; which I did get. Now, I'm taking the book back to the library because I don't want to learn how to write from someone who ya'll say cannot.

Now, how about J.K. Rowling? And, how about the old Hardy Boys books by Franklin W. Dixon? They seem to flow pretty well and are easy enough to read.

Again, I don't want to "learn" bad habits. I want to learn "good" writing which, to me, would be an easy (fast) read that the reader can easily follow and understand. It seems the story line is another matter entirely.

Thanks!

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I like Rowling's writing a good bit. Many blast her for too many adverbs and adjectives and say her dialogue tags break the rules, but I think they're wrong. Many of the rules used when writing for adults do not apply when writing for children.

Children like and often need such things, and a smart writer changes the way he writes when aiming at children.

I used to read The Hardy Boys, and Nancy Drew. Both were pretty good, though I think the Drew books were better written, for the most part.

I do think picking up style from otehr, successful writers can be a very good thing, but style won't get you published. Story and characters will. You can learn both from other writers, however, assuming you have the talent to do so.

Read lots of books from lots of styles. Watch plenty of movies and television. Look at plenty of art. Touch nature and architecture. Listen to people you enjoy speaking or telling stories.

Sleep.

Read more. Watch more. Look more. Touch more. Listen more.

Write.

Sleep.

Practice your writing.

Read. Watch. Look. Touch. Listen.

Sleep.

Rinse and repeat.

Style emerges.

The End.

I like Rowling's style. She knows how to keep kids interested in reading. Extra kudos to her for that!

Besides, it doesn't kill you to read a "bad" book every now and then. I think you mentioned earlier that you read On Writing, by King. He talks about several books he calls "bad", he read them, learned from them, and moved on.

Never fails. The first exposures are the most commercial ones. Never a bad things. And certainly, many commercial successes cannot be faulted for their writing abilities.

However, and just some food for thought, maybe pick up some work by Jack Kerouack (sic), Michael Moorcock or something translated by Umberto Eco (which is heavy, but it's meant to be heavy). "The Name of the Rose" blows away anything "The Da Vinci Code" could ever be writing-wise. The Movie was very cool, too, with a young Christian Slater and Sean Connery in what is considered his comeback film.

The focus, really, is on what you want to achieve. Barrell-chested Norman Mailer importance or Dan Brown sell-a-billion success. Either is admirable.

In any case, if you concentrate on one form of media, you may be selling yourself short (and reiterating my otherwise cryptic point from above). Maybe Dan Brown's writing isn't top shelf, but he didn't have to wait until he was dead to go smug with the blue mock and the camelhair jacket on us.

And JK Rowling's a billionaire. Now. Not while she's dead.

Meanwhile, Ernest Hemingway is ... important.

Knosh on that one, kids.

Shalom

Hemingway... bleck. Don't go there. F. Scott Fitzgerald... *zzzzz*. LOL

I enjoy Rowling's style, and while some do say she uses too many adverbs, it seems to be a British style thing and not a writing thing. That's just what I've heard from friends across the pond.

If you want to read well-written fantasy, you can't go wrong with Tamora Pierce. She's got great stories and a flowing, readable, well-done style.

I enjoy Rowling's writing a good bit, I think she definitely has style and talent. I don't attribute her overuse of adjectives / adverbs to "style", though. I don't think there's any reason for writing to be clumsy, regardless of what age group it's for.

In fact, comparing the first book to, say, the fifth, I find it's a much smoother read, and it's still an engaging story. Order of the Phoenix had Harry's infamous half-page all-caps "rant". There was no excuse for that, period. If any of us tried to sell the all-caps thing, we'd get laughed at, guaranteed.

But I don't blame Rowling, I blame her editors 100%. Someone is saying, "More pages means more money!" and I highly doubt it's Rowling herself. Thankfully, there was a large improvement on the editing in book six.

Writing for children is much, much harder than it sounds. I respect anyone who can pull it off with the level of success Rowling has mustered.

One of the strangest things about J.K. Rowling isn't just that she's very successful among children, but that many adults enjoy her writing as well. And, unlike DaVinci Code from the other thread, these people do actually read these massive books cover-to-cover, for enjoyment alone. No real "ideas" are being shoved down their throats, just a story about weird kids growing up in fantastical circumstances. People are reading it for the story alone, and these books don't sit on shelves, but get shared and passed around the family.

That takes talent.
Is it my cup of tea? I read the first one, and shrugged at it. So, no.

Do I respect her talent? Most certainly, I do.

Although I don't begrudge Rowling her fame or fortune, I must admit it took me several tries to get through the first Harry Potter book. It was just too "British" sounding for me and it didn't seem to pick up until Harry actually arrived at Hogwarts. I don't think I ever truly empathized with him. But I was impressed with her imagination. If I could steal anything from her, it would be that.

Writing for children can indeed be difficult, but kids still don't need a million adjectives and adverbs to guide them (and again, the early HP books didn't seem to be as plagued).

I love literature for children / young adults. I'll often take it over adult stuff. I'm a fan of the "Silverwing" series by Kenneth Oppel, and I also thought "Holes" was a superb book. Both of those had clean, flowing prose.

Ferret: Agreed on Rowling's imagination. I absolutely love her take on mythical animals, particularily dragons. In an age where every fantasy writer seems to be changing history's more fearsome beast into fire-breathing My Little Ponies, it's nice to see her do the basics so well.

(Especially the way she "coordinates" the dragons by country/region and not colour, which is the common method)

But how much does "style" influence the success of a wildly popular novel? I'd say that the prose just needs to be clear enough that you know what's going on without suspending disbelief - no cases where you wonder "Hey, whose thought is that?" or think, "Come on, nobody talks like that!"

What I really remember from books like that are the characters, settings, and the story. I usually don't "see" the prose itself.

jst - I like the points you make. The more you read in different styles, genres, categories the better. The more "other" things you experience such as architecture, mythology, film, art, etc the better! These are all things that will fold into your characters identities, dialog, your metaphors and your imagery.
They don't all have to be "good". Try the different styles you see, look at mistakes you see in other books, and make sure you don't do it. Its as important to know what is wrong as it is to know what is right.
Someone mentioned Hemingway. When I had to read The Old Man And The Sea in h.s. I hated it. When I read A Moveable Feast, when I was older, I grew an entirely new appreciation for him. What did a learn? You don't need long explanatory sentences full of phrases to elaborate each point. Sometimes the simplest formed sentence is the best. I learned from him. I think that is a wonderful thing to get from a book. I'm sure he's not on a lot of people's "favorite authors" list, but hey, I managed to learn something of description of places/scenery from him, and a little something about forming sentences, using the "truest" word, and being declarative. Do I want to write just like him? Nope. But I'm glad I read it!
So do what JST suggested - read, write, practice writing some more, go out and see as many things as you can, and write about it, give yourself prompts and write about it, try to tell a story you already know in a new and different way. Fill your "tool box" with as many tools as you can and use the experience.
Have fun discovering your style. Devour books as fast as you can and try to take something away from each of them, whether what to do or what not to do. Fill your mind with anything and everything that will contribute to your ability to write a good story. Music, art, other books, movies, mythology, nature, science, etc.
Good luck! I hope the journey to good writing is fun! I'm having a blast

Trish - mid-journey

One of my favorite books, to this day, is "The First Two Lives of Lukas Kasha" by Lloyd Alexander.

I also read "Free Stallion" by what's-her-face's... Joan of Arcadia? What's her name... google... google... Amber Tamblyn's book of poetry "Free Stallion", and I wondered what the heck it was doing in the teen section.

Not to say it's nobel material -- because it's not -- but it sure beat the stuffing out of Jewel's poetry (which is still in the poetry section), and Tamblyn shows a more promise than many of the new poets I've read in otherwise good literary magazines.
But, this is all part of the strangeness of marketing. You can't just go to one section of the store to find good writing.

I still don't understand why Ursula K. Leguinn is in the sci-fi fantasy section, and Margaret Atwood is in Literature...

Well, I remember being shocked the first time I heard that Watership Down is supposed to be a children's book. XD

Saritams8 said:

Besides, it doesn't kill you to read a "bad" book every now and then.

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I've learnt quite a lot from 'bad' books. I find them inspirational too, in so much as if something terrible can get published and make it onto a book shop shelf, then there's hope for all of us.

A step-by-step approach to writing a series and generating millions of dollars:

1. Have a likeable main character in a rotten home situation.
2. Send him to a magic school.
3. Let him have fun with his friends.
4. Have him defeat an evil wizard.
5. Send him back to the rotten home situation.
6. Repeat six times. Add and remove characters as needed.

-Nick

Speaking of learning from bad books, I must strut. I actually own a copy of "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles" by NK Stouffer, who sued JK Rowling for "ripping off her ideas."

Some of the "infringements" Miss Stouffer pointed out: Both books have castles! Both books are about orphans! Both books have a lake! No, I'm not making this up.

Her biggest bullet was the word "Muggle", which is simply a word for a non-magical human in the Harry Potter universe. In Stouffer's world, a "muggle" is ... a human who's been subject to a strange evolution as a result of a nuclear war or something.

It's really too odd to explain. You can read the intro to Stouffer's book on her page: http://www.realmuggles.com/. Yes, that's honest to goodness published text right there.

I did like the first three Harry Potter books better than the fourth and fifth, which goes to show that longer is not better. The all caps thing nearly had me throwing the book across the room in despair, but fortunately I got over it. I hope the seventh book is at least as good as the sixth.

This brings home another point--if you start off a series really well and hook people, some folks (like me) will continue reading, even if the writing gets worse, just to see what happens.

Personally, I liked Prisoner of Azkaban best. The plot line seemed much more solid to me, and the twist with Wormtail was a genuine surprise.

Ferret: Agreed on Rowling's imagination. I absolutely love her take on mythical animals, particularily dragons. In an age where every fantasy writer seems to be changing history's more fearsome beast into fire-breathing My Little Ponies, it's nice to see her do the basics so well.

(Especially the way she "coordinates" the dragons by country/region and not colour, which is the common method)

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She must not have played Dungeons and Dragons...

Actually, for fantasy writers out there, I really would suggest studying mythological creatures, and trying to leave the D&D stock characters behind.

BlueBadger said:

Speaking of learning from bad books, I must strut. I actually own a copy of "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles" by NK Stouffer, who sued JK Rowling for "ripping off her ideas."

Some of the "infringements" Miss Stouffer pointed out: Both books have castles! Both books are about orphans! Both books have a lake! No, I'm not making this up.

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Maybe the rest of us fantasy writers can join Stouffer, and make it a class action suit? I wouldn't mind a part of the action.

(I think the lawyer who took on this suit should lose his credentials. This goes beyond the silliness spawned by DVC.)

She must not have played Dungeons and Dragons...

Actually, for fantasy writers out there, I really would suggest studying mythological creatures, and trying to leave the D&D stock characters behind.

w0rd! Though to be honest, I am completely sick of standard D&D fantasy, but I still think that Margaret Weis is too cool for school. Her "Doom Brigade" series had me laughing like crazy. It also says something about her writing that I didn't care at all about Raistlin in the Dragonlance Chronicles (gasp!), but I was crying by the end of the Legends trilogy.

'course, I was REALLY crying after what Lizards of the Coast made her do to the Heroes of the Lance in the Chaos War books, but I don't fault her for that.

Her biggest bullet was the word "Muggle", which is simply a word for a non-magical human in the Harry Potter universe. In Stouffer's world, a "muggle" is ... a human who's been subject to a strange evolution as a result of a nuclear war or something.

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Totally off topic, but I just read about the Muggletonians of the 1600's, named after Lodowic Muggleton. They were some sort of religious group that said Muggleton had the power to save or damn whom he pleased. Sounds like they could sue Rowling too...

Elwyn said:

I started the Da Vinci Code thread to get ya'll opinion on Dan Brown's writing; which I did get. Now, I'm taking the book back to the library because I don't want to learn how to write from someone who ya'll say cannot.

Now, how about J.K. Rowling? And, how about the old Hardy Boys books by Franklin W. Dixon? They seem to flow pretty well and are easy enough to read.

Again, I don't want to "learn" bad habits. I want to learn "good" writing which, to me, would be an easy (fast) read that the reader can easily follow and understand. It seems the story line is another matter entirely.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Writers can learn from the "bad" as well as the good. Clearly Brown did something very right with his book(s). Being able to pinpoint what it was could prove enlightening and educational, and help you sharpen your own writing skills. The same with Rowling. Figure out why these books have done so well and you'll benefit your own writing.

Beth

BlueBadger said:

w0rd! Though to be honest, I am completely sick of standard D&D fantasy, but I still think that Margaret Weis is too cool for school. Her "Doom Brigade" series had me laughing like crazy. It also says something about her writing that I didn't care at all about Raistlin in the Dragonlance Chronicles (gasp!), but I was crying by the end of the Legends trilogy.

'course, I was REALLY crying after what Lizards of the Coast made her do to the Heroes of the Lance in the Chaos War books, but I don't fault her for that.

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Not to hijack the thread, but I did like Dragonlance, at least the originals and Legends. However, far too many fantasy novels that aren't set in D&D worlds are still set in D&D worlds, if you know what I mean...

(I'm talking from experience here--it's taken me 20+ years to move away from simply re-writing adventures to writing a real novel.)

all I know is that I am THRILLED when I see dozens of kids lining up, barely able to carry their copy of the latest HP to the cash register.

if nothing else, they're reading.

which is a Good Thing.