Writing Dialogue for past centuries

Remember me? Your reader.

I live in the 21st century. I hope I'm going to be able to follow and understand what I am reading.

What Bufty said.

Old English might as well be Polish for all I'm able to read it.

Here's something to compare:

http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html

jicky said:

I've been looking around for a while, but I can't find this information anywhere. I might as well ask other writers, right?

I am writing a novel set in the ninth century, and I want the characters to be true--and I want to be unique--in speaking in the same manner of their respective century.

Are there any resources for "translating" sentences of dialogue to older centuries, or are there writing samples from this century lying around on the internet?

I want, as I said earlier, for the characters to match their words and actions for the ninth century. Can anyone help me to find samples of such dialogue?

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You have to take into consideration the reader and ease of reading, so while you want to set a few things apart in dialogue, in general, you'll need to bow to the dictates of the 21st century. On the DVD for the BBC series "Elizabeth R" starring Glenda Jackson, there is a commentary by one of the script writers about trying to be faithful to Elizabethan English, but allowing the viewer to easily understand. She says to capture the flavor, but not so much as the viewer has to repeat a scene to understand the meaning.

Laura Kinsale did something like this, in ... I think it was "For My Lady's Heart."

It was tough to read, and IIRC, it was considerably more current than 9th century. You might take a look at it, though, to see how she did it.

Rather than being completely accurate, you probably want to aim for some of the feel of language then. A rhythm or pattern to the speech that's different from now. Sort of like, well, I don't know the details, but like the way that German sentence structure is different from English sentence structure in the placement of nouns and verbs. If you can find a similar structural difference between current and 9th century language, you could work with that, while using modern spelling and vocabulary.

jicky,

if what you're being told sounds "wrong," slog through Huck Finn once.....

on the flip side there's lots of period stuff to read and examine also

You want to write a book in a language used in the 9th century? It’s not likely to be comprehensible to any but a handful of scholars.

9th century where? China? Egypt? Argentina? Scandinavia?

If you mean English, the language didn’t exist in any contemporarily understandable form until around the time of The Canterbury Tales by Chaucer (@LeVostreGC on Twitter) in the late 14th century.

I am a great admire of Rosemary Sutcliff, who constructed a style that used the syntax structure and word selection of Latin or Gaelic, but was readable to a modern reader.

Another pit-fall to be wary of is (to quote Sutcliff):

Victorian writers, and even those of a somewhat later date . . . saw nothing ludicrous in ‘Alas! fair youth, it grieves me to see thee in this plight. Would that I had the power to strike these fetters from thy tender limbs.’ Josephine Tey, whose death I shall never cease to lament, called this ‘Writing forsoothly.’ A slightly different variant is known in the trade as ‘gadzookery.’ Nowadays this is out of fashion; and some writers go to the other extreme and make the people of Classical Greece or Mediaeval England speak modern colloquial English. This is perhaps nearer to the truth of the spirit, since the people in question would have spoken the modern colloquial tongue of their place and time.

But, personally, I find it destroys the atmosphere when a young Norman Knight says to his Squire, ‘Shut up, Dickie, you’re getting too big for your boots.’ Myself, I try for a middle course, avoiding both gadzookery and modern colloquialism; a frankly ‘made-up’ form that has the right sound to it, as Kipling did also. I try to catch the rhythm of a tongue, the tune that it plays on the ear, Welsh or Gaelic as opposed to Anglo-Saxon, the sensible workmanlike language which one feels the Latin of the ordinary Roman citizen would have translated into. It is extraordinary what can be done by the changing or transposing of a single word, or using perfectly usual one in a slightly unusual way: ‘I beg your pardon’ changed into ‘I ask your pardon.’

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jicky said:

I've been looking around for a while, but I can't find this information anywhere. I might as well ask other writers, right?

I am writing a novel set in the ninth century, and I want the characters to be true--and I want to be unique--in speaking in the same manner of their respective century.

Are there any resources for "translating" sentences of dialogue to older centuries, or are there writing samples from this century lying around on the internet?

I want, as I said earlier, for the characters to match their words and actions for the ninth century. Can anyone help me to find samples of such dialogue?

Click to expand...

It's a noble idea, but I don't think you really want to do so. You have to know such language yourself before you can write it properly. A translation service wouldn't work.

The ninth century is Old English, and not one reader in a thousand could read it, even if they wanted to, and very few would want to. The following is the first few sentences ofThe Book of Genesis in Old English. Do you really want to try writing dialogue like this?

On angynne gesceop God heofenan and eorðan. 2 Seo eorðe soðlice wæs idel ond æmti, ond þeostra wæron ofer ðære nywelnysse bradnysse; ond Godes gast wæs geferod ofer wæteru.

If you need a translator to write it, then I'll need one to read it. So I just won't read it. You're better off using modern English with older speech patterns/mannerisms.

The Brother Cadfael books do a pretty good job--modern English, modern sort of characters, but a hint of formality that carries along well.

This reminds me of the film Se7en, when Brad Pitt is trying to figure out how to read whatever Old English text John Doe is drawing inspiration from. He gets so frustrated, it's hilarious.

"Just cos some guy has a library card doesn't make him... Yoda!"

Unless you are already intimately familiar with the time period, its culture and language, and have figured out a way to write something that sounds right and if also still understandable, then you shouldn't even attempt it, frankly.

Also, writing from the time is not going to equate to the way people spoke. Does the writing of our culture and time tell you exactly how people currently speak on the street, in their work places, at home? Recordings do of course, but there's no such resources for the ninth century.

Jamesaritchie said:

It's a noble idea, but I don't think you really want to do so. You have to know such language yourself before you can write it properly. A translation service wouldn't work.

The ninth century is Old English, and not one reader in a thousand could read it, even if they wanted to, and very few would want to. The following is the first few sentences ofThe Book of Genesis in Old English. Do you really want to try writing dialogue like this?

On angynne gesceop God heofenan and eorðan. 2 Seo eorðe soðlice wæs idel ond æmti, ond þeostra wæron ofer ðære nywelnysse bradnysse; ond Godes gast wæs geferod ofer wæteru.

3 God cwæð ða, "Gewurðe leoht," ond leoht wæarð geworht. 4 God geseah ða ðæt hit god wæs, ond he todælde þæt leoht fram ðam ðystrum. 5 Ond het ðæt leoht dæg ond þa ðystru niht: ða wæs geworden æfen ond merigen an dæg.​

6 God cwæð ða eft, "Gewurðe nu fæstnys tomiddes ðam wæterum ond totwæme ða wæteru fram ðam wæterum." 7 Ond God geworhte ða fæstnysse, ond totwæmde ða wæteru, ða wæron under ðære fæstnysse, fram ðam ðe wæren bufan ðære fæstnysse: hit wæs ða swa gedon.
​

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I didn't know this was what old English looked like. Wow, you learn something new everyday.

There's an interesting review of Nicola Griffith's novel Hild, which is set in 7th century England. The reviewer included an email exchange they had with Griffith about the language choices in the book:

http://farbeyondreality.com/2013/11/15/hild-by-nicola-griffith/

To the OP, I think some very valid points have been made. English as we know it didn't exist at the time you mention, so unless you want to write in a different language, you will need to "translate" into modern English.

Now, how do you go about that? How to make it sound "authentic" when clearly it isn't? Well, first, I think you need to read widely in historical fiction. See what your reader might expect. You can't achieve actual authenticity, but this is fiction: you're going for verisimilitude, not perfect truth. Make your reader believe they're in the world by using a certain cadence, choosing certain words, and using certain syntax. I think you'll probably want to go with more formal sentences with fewer contractions. There is really only one way to get good at this: learning and practicing. You have to get so used to writing this way that it becomes second nature.

Good luck with your writing!

Becky Black said:

Unless you are already intimately familiar with the time period, its culture and language, and have figured out a way to write something that sounds right and if also still understandable, then you shouldn't even attempt it, frankly.

Also, writing from the time is not going to equate to the way people spoke. Does the writing of our culture and time tell you exactly how people currently speak on the street, in their work places, at home? Recordings do of course, but there's no such resources for the ninth century.

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Well, the trouble is that it's almost impossible to know exactly how people spoke then, so writing will have to do. Writing is all we have to go by. Just like now, however, some of the wirters then strove to write exactly as s people spoke.

Fortunately, there are letters and journals that come closer to everyday speech than any other kind of writing, but it's pretty much impossible to be precise. The real problem is simply a lack of writing from everyday people during the period.

And, well, teah, to a very large degree, writing of our time does tell us how people speak on the street or at home. Many writers are very, very good at recording how people speak on the street and at home.

I may take out the Ummms, and the Ahhhs a person uses when talking, but other than this, I write dialogue the way people speak. Many writers do this intentionally for academic writing, for history, for language study, etc., and always have.

Accent is the difficult part of recording how people really speak, or more precise, what they sound like when speaking, not the words they use, not the way they talk.

Ah, dear Wilde one, thank you so much! I have not seen an original language transcript of Beowulf since college! Blast from the past. I think I'll go out and buy a copy of it just for the fish. (halibut)

And, jicky, I was going to point out that old, Olde English (as opposed to Middle English, which most people seem to associate with 'old English') is more of a Germanic language - and OLD Germanic at that, but Wilde_at_heart beat me to it. Very few extant languages have survived to the 21c without many, many changes throughout the ages. And most of them would be indistinguishable to all but, as already pointed out, a very few languages scholars.

And I can only reiterate Bufty's comment that, your reader is a 21st century reader and would not be able to understand anything you wrote. So... what's the point?

Write for your audience but be cognizant of the fact that 'tricks', such as using some ancient language, would only confound a would-be reader and turn them away from your work.

And, even something as seemingly benign as copying the style of speech patterns can be quite confounding since there is very little information on exactly how someone might have spoken and/or formed sentences more than a millennium ago.

jicky said:

I've been looking around for a while, but I can't find this information anywhere. I might as well ask other writers, right?

I am writing a novel set in the ninth century, and I want the characters to be true--and I want to be unique--in speaking in the same manner of their respective century.

Click to expand...

Ninth century? So you want them speaking Old English? Aside from some linguists and historians, you're not going to find much of an audience for that these days, as it's literally a different language than modern (or even middle) English. Even Middle English (ala Chaucer) is going to be tough going for most modern readers these days.

Also very hard to write authentically for someone who has not studied it extensively.

Here's Beowulf in Old English

jicky said:

Are there any resources for "translating" sentences of dialogue to older centuries, or are there writing samples from this century lying around on the internet?

I want, as I said earlier, for the characters to match their words and actions for the ninth century. Can anyone help me to find samples of such dialogue?

Click to expand...

There's sites like Lexilogos,and this one, but that just gives you words, not the ability to use the grammar and so on of a different rules.

I think you should probably just write your historic novel in modern English, but avoid words, cultural references, slang, and reference to items, technology and implements that are anachronistic (as in, they didn't exist in 9th century Britain and evoke the modern era, or a different historic period). You can certainly flavor it by using appropriate names for people, by tossing in some translated idioms from that era or maybe even some words for things that existed at that time but don't now, and of course, by providing some details about what life was really like during that period.

Read some historic fiction writers (Bernard Cornwell has stories set in Saxon-era Britain, and there are undoubtedly some other writers too) and see how they do it. Also, you'll need to do some research into what the ninth century was like (I'm assuming you want Britain, but the same goes for other settings).

Use slang. Find out what the slang of the era was. Use that instead of modern slang. Honestly, that will get you a long way without losing the reader.

Roxxsmom said:

I think you should probably just write your historical novel in modern English, but avoid words, cultural references, slang, and reference to items, technology and implements that are anachronistic (as in, they didn't exist in 9th century Britain and evoke the modern era, or a different historical period).

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I just had to...

adjective: historic
1.
famous or important in history, or potentially so.
"the area's numerous historic sites"

adjective: historical
1.
of or concerning history or past events.
"historical evidence"

Aaaaanyway...

I would agree with avoiding references to anachronistic technology or concepts, but when it comes to language... You're essentially translating a dead language it into modern English anyway, so I see no problem with using modern slang. I'd keep it basic, but you can get a lot of mileage out of the universal themes of: bodily functions (pissing, shitting, farting), sex (fucking, buggering) and parentage (bastard, son of a whore).

When it comes to idioms, I try to stay away from anything too obviously dependent on modern cultural associations. But I think if you strip all colloquialsms away you end up with something that sounds like non-human speech. I'd much rather read a historical novel* that has engaging and colourful characters who use modern speech patterns than one populated by stilted automatons.

* My preferences really only extend to novels based on non-English speaking cultures. The closer you get to modern English, the more flavour of the period I want to see in speech patterns. But I still don't think an Elizabethan novel should attempt an accurate approximation of Elizabethan dialogue. However the 19th century should be pretty bang on.

Kallithrix said:

I just had to...

adjective: historic
1.
famous or important in history, or potentially so.
"the area's numerous historic sites"

adjective: historical
1.
of or concerning history or past events.
"historical evidence"

Aaaaanyway...

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You're quire right, so I won't get hysterical over your correcting me on the use of historical, since I tend to write the fantastical, which is just fantastic

I agree with the second part too. I tend to prefer novels written before people were speaking modern English (or where people are speaking any other language either) where the writer uses modern style English overall. It's a bit different if a novel is set in the 1700s or 1800s. Then, use of completely modern diction stands out more, maybe because we've all read novels that were written in those eras and are more used to reading documents and such from those time periods.

But I'd avoid really modern or faddish sounding colloquialisms in any novel that isn't meant to encompass the era it's set in. I read a S&S fantasy novel that was written in the 60s, and even though it was meant to be funny, it made me giggle to have the characters using now-defunct terms like "groovy."

There are so many other ways to portray a time or a period, I say leave the language alone. Dialogue should flow easily and smoothly. The more baggage you weigh it down with, the more it gets in its own way. If you want to sprinkle a few slang words or aphorisms in there for "flavor", fine. But even that I would do sparingly.

When youre dealing with a time and place where no one spoke any kind of english we would recognize, "authenticity" goes out the window. The minute someone opens their mouth and modern english comes out, youve already blown it, so might as well make the language as familiar to the reader as possible. Just avoid anything that sounds too modern.

That's a tough one. There was poetry pub'd then. So if you got a collection from that era and read thru what's available, which may not be much, you'd have some feel for dialogue. A second alternative would be secondary sources: books set in the 9th like the one you're writing. Check out how they handled it. That'd be useful I'm sure. Like posters above have said, a light touch may be the way to go.

As everyone else has already stated, the language that would be used in this case would be readable by only a handful of academics. It sounds like a recipe for setting oneself up for failure.

Even watching out for anachronisms in historical fiction can be a full-time job if one isn't careful - the farther one goes back in time, the more anachronisms can pop up. My own WIP only goes back to the mid 1930's, and I've had to do two purges in dialog already.

Don't rush into something like this simply for the sake of appearing "unique".