3rd person limited. Inner monologue

Honest Bill · May 21, 2013

I'm very new to this writing game, so i have something i would like opinions on.

I'm thinking about blending the POV character's inner monologue in to the narrative. I'm wondering if it reads well to put their thoughts in seamlessly without the need for tags such as 'she thought' etc

The idea is that everything that is unfolding is to be viewed uniquely from the character's perspective. the narrative takes on the character's 'voice' when describing things, but also her thoughts are placed in to the narrative in the form of little 'interjections'

I know i'm probably explaining this quite badly so i'll give an example.

POV character is Norah.

' The crowd parted and old Heegan eventually hobbled through to the front. "I am," he said, standing as proud as his back would allow. The chieftain had been grey, wrinkly and half crippled as long as Norah had been alive. He told everyone he injured it in a battle. Norah must have heard the story a million times. She had also heard the real story from old Granmir, about how he drank too much brandy-wine and fell off a stool in a Rhillian whore-house. "Heegan's the name," he said.'

As you can see i'm trying to 'interject' with her thoughts but without separating them from the narrative.

I'm trying to keep everything consistent and describe things, keeping them grounded in her perspective.

Does this kind of narrative structure work well in your opinion. Does it have the desired effect?

Also this would be a multiple viewpoint story. The story would also be quite dramatic, but this character is a bit of a 'smart-ass' would her making amusing little interjections weaken the impact of the more serious nature of the story. Of course i wouldn't do it while she's running for her life or any other situations where it would be totally inappropriate, but i'm worried it might come across as too comedic, when it's actually a serious story.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Kerosene · May 21, 2013

Looks fine to me.

You can't have pages of italicized thoughts. What's the point of third person then?
Read through third person books and you'll spot points where the characters are in contemplation, but the narrative is raising the thoughts.

Honest Bill · May 21, 2013

WillSauger said:
Looks fine to me.

You can't have pages of italicized thoughts. What's the point of third person then?
Read through third person books and you'll spot points where the characters are in contemplation, but the narrative is raising the thoughts.

Thanks for taking the time to help.

Yeah i've seen it done before. But what i mean is, does it work to keep the reader in her head and in her frame of mind, instead of feeling like it's me the author who is telling you this in a more omniscient fashion?

I'm trying to introduce the readers to the world from a subjective POV, even though it won't always be the same character, so you will get to see Heegan for example described later from another POV, and Heegan is a total hero, the guy who won the battle etc.

I don't want my reader to feel that i contradict myself, but that there are different perspectives viewing him that don't really have anything to do with objective truth. Then the reader will also see his actions and hear his words, but that will always be 'coloured' by the perspective we are using at the time. I hpe to use it to subtly misdirect the reader at critical points.

Roxxsmom · May 22, 2013

You may want to do a bit of research into deep pov or deep third pov, as this approach may be along the lines of what you're trying to do?

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
You may want to do a bit of research into deep pov or deep third pov, as this approach may be along the lines of what you're trying to do?

Thanks very much, this is very helpful, That's exactly the kind of thing i'm looking for.

I'm hoping to achieve it using multiple POVs, all with very different goals and motivations, often running directly contrary to one another. But i want to be sure not to intrude too many 'authorial biases' in to the events that unfold. I know i could just describe everything with cold, hard facts. this is what happened etc. But i would prefer to take advantage of character voice and add more personality in to descriptions and just generally show the world in how it relates to people.

I hope it works...

Thanks again folks.

I just read through that 'Deep POV' link, and it will be very useful. Also i found that i'm naturally using a lot of those techniques which is encouraging, but it also highliights some things i hadn't looked out for.

Bufty · May 22, 2013

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=Honest Bill;8190410]Thanks for taking the time to help.

Yeah i've seen it done before. But what i mean is, does it work to keep the reader in her head and in her frame of mind, instead of feeling like it's me the author who is telling you this in a more omniscient fashion?

Of course it works. That should be your aim.

That is the whole point of Third person Limited - to create and maintain the illusion for the reader that he is experiencing unfolding events through the senses of the POV character via that POV camera positioned on the chosen POV character's shoulder. It's an illusion because that chosen POV character is not the narrator - it's us -the writer.

We are the narrator but, as you say, we keep our narrator presence as inconspicuous as possible - relaying only that which is perceived through the camera lens. Inserting our opinions and explanations as the narrator will break the illusion.

Either we write using Omniscient POV where we as the narrator are the sole POV or we use Third person limited where as the narrator we are only the means of creating the narrative to link the unfolding actions and dialogue together but we are not the POV character.

The 'limited' in Third person Limited means limited to one POV at a time per scene, chapter, or whatever - but you can have as many POV characters as you wish throughout the tale. To me, so-called deep POV simply reflects a writer's growing experience and knowledge of the craft and that will develop as one's tool-box fills.

Any help?

I'm trying to introduce the readers to the world from a subjective POV, even though it won't always be the same character, so you will get to see Heegan for example described later from another POV, and Heegan is a total hero, the guy who won the battle etc.

I don't want my reader to feel that i contradict myself, but that there are different perspectives viewing him that don't really have anything to do with objective truth. Then the reader will also see his actions and hear his words, but that will always be 'coloured' by the perspective we are using at the time. I hpe to use it to subtly misdirect the reader at critical points.

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

Yes. Thanks Bufty. That's very helpful. You're right, that is what i'm shooting for. But i've seen 3rd limited done in a slightly more 'distant' way. where, although you are limited to the POV of a particular character. the narrative with things like descriptions and sensory details is written in a more objective way, without too much of the character's voice or biases included except in their own dialogue.

I want my readers to go along with the character completely seeing things from one perspective and being totally behind that character. And then i want to plunge them directly in to the shoes of someone very different. I not only want the reader to see things from both perspectives, but i want them to feel it too. like they are backing both teams in a game where one of them has to lose.

Bufty · May 22, 2013

On reading the last sentence I'm not sure I can fully reconcile what you're saying here about distance, but good luck.

Honest Bill said:
Yes. Thanks Bufty. That's very helpful. You're right, that is what i'm shooting for. But i've seen 3rd limited done in a slightly more 'distant' way. where, although you are limited to the POV of a particular character. the narrative with things like descriptions and sensory details is written in a more objective way, without too much of the character's voice or biases included except in their own dialogue.

I want my readers to go along with the character completely seeing things from one perspective and being totally behind that character. And then i want to plunge them directly in to the shoes of someone very different. I not only want the reader to see things from both perspectives, but i want them to feel it, too, like they are backing both teams in a game where one of them has to lose.

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

Bufty said:
On reading the last sentence I'm not sure I can fully reconcile what you're saying here about distance, but good luck.

What i mean is, i want the experience of being in the character's head throughout all their scenes, to create a sympathy with them. I want the reader to be totally behind them in what they are doing. and once they are behind each character, i will then make it clear by the way events have been unfolding throughout the story, that there is an inevitable clash between the POV characters.

The reader then wants both POV characters to get what they want, but it becomes impossible for everyone to achieve their goals because they run contrary to the others. I want the reader to feel conflicted.

I hope that makes more sense.

Kerosene · May 22, 2013

Honest Bill said:
What i mean is, i want the experience of being in the character's head throughout all their scenes, to create a sympathy with them.

This is for both this qoute, and possibly to help you on the general narration factor:

Subjectivity is mainly 1st person's greatest strength. For third, not so much.

You want to create situations, scenes, and experiences that the characters as well as the readers go through. Then you have the characters reflect on what happens and either act or change accordingly. All of this will create sympathy with the character, because as they go through it, the reader finds themselves sitting right next to the character going through the same shit.

Yes, you can use the character's thoughts to change the way the reader sees the scene (using their perception and focusing/blurring on certain points that are relevant to that character. Like, a politician would note someone's speech and be able to infer that they are lying, and express that to the reader in a way). But you can't add their "voice" into the work, as it's not them speaking but a narrator describing what they are going through. Deep/close POV tries to close that gap between the POV character and the narrator.

I say all of this, because if the POV characters are coming up with something that does not fit with what the reader has seen or can't see, then the narrator (you in this case) is just making shit up. Let's say a man walks into the room and shakes hands with everyone, smiles, kisses babies. The character somehow, through narrator states that this man is a horrible person that will kill everyone in this room. Without an evidence (as in a scene/experience that is stated) this comes from thin air to the reader. You'd have to bring in that the character saw this man planning to kill everyone, and they are there to stop him--or something. In first, you can bring shit up all the time as you're listening to the narrator directly and somehow with that idea in mind, you trust their words more (this is what creates unreliable narrators, and why the vast majority of them are in 1st).

Third person is mostly following these characters, sometimes feeding off their perceptions and thoughts.

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

WillSauger said:
This is for both this qoute, and possibly to help you on the general narration factor:

Subjectivity is mainly 1st person's greatest strength. For third, not so much.

You want to create situations, scenes, and experiences that the characters as well as the readers go through. Then you have the characters reflect on what happens and either act or change accordingly. All of this will create sympathy with the character, because as they go through it, the reader finds themselves sitting right next to the character going through the same shit.

Yes, you can use the character's thoughts to change the way the reader sees the scene (using their perception and focusing/blurring on certain points that are relevant to that character. Like, a politician would note someone's speech and be able to infer that they are lying, and express that to the reader in a way). But you can't add their "voice" into the work, as it's not them speaking but a narrator describing what they are going through. Deep/close POV tries to close that gap between the POV character and the narrator.

I say all of this, because if the POV characters are coming up with something that does not fit with what the reader has seen or can't see, then the narrator (you in this case) is just making shit up. Let's say a man walks into the room and shakes hands with everyone, smiles, kisses babies. The character somehow, through narrator states that this man is a horrible person that will kill everyone in this room. Without an evidence (as in a scene/experience that is stated) this comes from thin air to the reader. You'd have to bring in that the character saw this man planning to kill everyone, and they are there to stop him--or something. In first, you can bring shit up all the time as you're listening to the narrator directly and somehow with that idea in mind, you trust their words more (this is what creates unreliable narrators, and why the vast majority of them are in 1st).

Third person is mostly following these characters, sometimes feeding off their perceptions and thoughts.

Thanks for your thoughts. But i'm not sure i understand fully, why the third narrator couldn't be used just the same.

I know i can't share any informaion with the reader that my character couldn't possibly perceive. but what i mean by using their voice is using the way they might describe things in the narrative. I have one scene for example, where the character Norah, sees a men on horses. Norah is about as poor as it gets, so the the narration would read something like

'The fat one in front must be an officer, he was the only one wearing a fancy cloak, and even his horse was flabby"

This is supposed to represent Norah's voice, because that's how she sees the man. I mean there are connotations there which give the reader certain ways they should feel about the officer, and share that with her. I want to be able to make inferences like that as if Norah herself is thinking it. But i would never try to infer something that Norah couldn't know or wouldn't be thinking.

As far as the 'unreliability' aspect goes, i wouldn't lie to the reader in that way. It's like i mentioned earlier. Someone else in the story will meet the chieftain with the bad back, and he will view him as a brave warrior who once injured himself. This is what the POV character believes, and so does the reader, because he isn't privy to the story that Norah recalled in the other snippet .

So events are described as the characters see and believe them, but that's not to say they are always necessarily the objective truth either.

Bufty · May 22, 2013

.

=Honest Bill;8190591]Thanks for your thoughts. But i'm not sure i understand fully, why the third narrator couldn't be used just the same.

I know i can't share any informaion with the reader that my character couldn't possibly perceive. but what i mean by using their voice is using the way they might describe things in the narrative. I have one scene for example, where the character Norah, sees a men on horses. Norah is about as poor as it gets, so the the narration would read something like

'The fat one in front must be an officer, he was the only one wearing a fancy cloak, and even his horse was flabby"

This is supposed to represent Norah's voice, because that's how she sees the man. I mean there are connotations there which give the reader certain ways they should feel about the officer, and share that with her. I want to be able to make inferences like that as if Norah herself is thinking it. But i would never try to infer something that Norah couldn't know or wouldn't be thinking.

Inferences? Either she is thinking it or she isn't.

Either you as narrator are reporting what is seen through the lens or you are not and in third you can only report what is seen.

Norah's voice doesn't come into the equation unless it's her expressed observation. Her poverty and circumstances will simply be reflected in the details she picks up on.

To me, the quote seems more like a first person narration or dialogue than an in narrative observation or thought through her as a third person limited POV character.

Maybe this is her reflecting back on the event - might work that way provided I knew she was reflecting, but the tenses are throwing me out in reading it.

Out-of-context snippets rarely convey what they are supposed to.

As far as the 'unreliability' aspect goes, i wouldn't lie to the reader in that way. It's like i mentioned earlier. Someone else in the story will meet the chieftain with the bad back, and he will view him as a brave warrior who once injured himself. This is what the POV character believes, and so does the reader, because he isn't privy to the story that Norah recalled in the other snippet .

So events are described as the characters see and believe them, but that's not to say they are always necessarily the objective truth either.

Kerosene · May 22, 2013

Agree with Bufty on this. The example you showed, Honest Bill, reads like it is directly from a stream-of-consciousness first person narrative.

Again, you can't add the POV character's "voice" to a third person narrative. What you can do (what I call it) is "taint" the narrative. We hear/see/feel/smell/taste/understand whatever the POV character is going through, so their own perception can affect what the narrator says.

Only in cases of a strong omniscient narrator, can you include a strong "voice" to the narration. The reader knows they are listening to a person.

The fat one in front must be an officer This is present tense and comes directly from the narrator's mouth. Who the narrator is? Who knows? They are ambiguous in this situation. But it is someone speaking directly to the reader, not just conveying what is happening., he was the only one wearing a fancy cloak, and even his horse was flabby. The rest of this is typical narration, with the description bring "tainted" by the adjectives "fancy" and "flabby".

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

I think i may have just used the term 'voice' incorrectly. It's supposed to be her thinking that, but blended with the narrative seamlessly so that you get the descriptions as she is thinking it. I mean she doesn't know he's an officer, she could be wrong for all we know, but she has inferred it through her thoughts, and i have reflected that, but without giving clear and delineated lines such as to say, 'the men rode in to camp and Norah thought the fat man in front... blah blah'

Instead i have just said, 'the men rode in to camp, the fat one in front must have been an officer... blah blah.

It's most likely just me failing to explain this properly. Perhaps i should stop messing about and go and write haha.

@Will

Ah yes, that's exactly what i'm talking about the 'stream of consciousness' (i wasn't familiar with that term)

But i don't see why it couldn't also work in 3rd person. Are you saying it is because it's not obvious that it is her thinking it or whether it's a narrator who doesn't know what they are talking about?

Bufty · May 22, 2013

Not perfect but - any use?

Norah kept as low as she could in the wet ferns but peeked from behind the tree as the column of horsemen rode past on the road below. The big man on the black horse at the front wore a fancy cloak. Officers always wore fancy cloaks so he must be the officer. She counted the riders as the horses clattered by. They used up all her fingers - twice. All the other men wore dull cloaks but the ends of their sword scabbards poked out. What were armed men doing in the valley? When the last horseman disappeared round the bend she scampered back up the hill. George was not going to like this.

Provided the reader knows he's in Norah's POV for this scene then it's obvious what she's thinking. Doesn't mean she's right but it's what she's thinking.

All the narrator has done is to sit inside the POV camera on her shoulder and narrate - narrate the what - not the why.

Maintaining a strong POV usually solves these issues.

=Honest Bill;8190630]I think i may have just used the term 'voice' incorrectly. It's supposed to be her thinking that, but blended with the narrative seamlessly so that you get the descriptions as she is thinking it. I mean she doesn't know he's an officer, she could be wrong for all we know, but she has inferred it through her thoughts, and i have reflected that, but without giving clear and delineated lines such as to say, 'the men rode in to camp and Norah thought the fat man in front... blah blah'

Instead i have just said, 'the men rode in to camp, the fat one in front must have been an officer... blah blah.

It's most likely just me failing to explain this properly. Perhaps i should stop messing about and go and write haha.

@Will

Ah yes, that's exactly what i'm talking about the 'stream of consciousness' (i wasn't familiar with that term)

But i don't see why it couldn't also work in 3rd person. Are you saying it is because it's not obvious that it is her thinking it or whether it's a narrator who doesn't know what they are talking about?

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

Bufty said:
Not perfect but - any use?

Yes very useful. This is exactly what i mean. your passage showed a good example of exactly what i'm talking about, the bit where you wrote 'What were armed men doing in the valley?' That is exactly what i'm trying to get across. That's what i meant by character's voice/inner monologue. She's essentially asking herself a question, but it's being presented naturally as part of the narrative. Great example. and the bit about George at the end, is another great example.

Thanks very much to you both. this has been very helpful, and the link you provided was gold, and answers most of my questions about this style.

Bufty · May 22, 2013

Honest Bill, it's not a style - it's a proven and very common technique in Third person POV for strengthening the POV and creating a greater sense of involvement for the reader.

Glad you found it helpful.

Honest Bill said:
Yes very useful. This is exactly what i mean. your passage showed a good example of exactly what i'm talking about, the bit where you wrote 'What were armed men doing in the valley?' That is exactly what i'm trying to get across. That's what i meant by character's voice/inner monologue. She's essentially asking herself a question, but it's being presented naturally as part of the narrative. Great example. and the bit about George at the end, is another great example.

Thanks very much to you both. this has been very helpful, and the link you provided was gold, and answers most of my questions about this style.

BethS · May 22, 2013

Honest Bill said:
I'm very new to this writing game, so i have something i would like opinions on.

I'm thinking about blending the POV character's inner monologue in to the narrative.

In third-person limited, the narrative is, or should be, nothing more than an extension of the character's thoughts.

I'm wondering if it reads well to put their thoughts in seamlessly without the need for tags such as 'she thought' etc

Just don't switch to first-person POV. To me, at least, nothing is more jarring than to be reading along, immersed, and have the POV suddenly change from third to first. If you want some pithy interjections cast in first-person, use italics, is my advice.

' The crowd parted and old Heegan eventually hobbled through to the front. "I am," he said, standing as proud as his back would allow. The chieftain had been grey, wrinkly and half crippled as long as Norah had been alive. He told everyone he injured it in a battle. Norah must have heard the story a million times. She had also heard the real story from old Granmir, about how he drank too much brandy-wine and fell off a stool in a Rhillian whore-house. "Heegan's the name," he said.'

This looks fine. You might consider using her name less and the pronoun more, which is less intrusive.

As you can see i'm trying to 'interject' with her thoughts but without separating them from the narrative.

I'm trying to keep everything consistent and describe things, keeping them grounded in her perspective.

Does this kind of narrative structure work well in your opinion. Does it have the desired effect?

It's exactly what a writer should be doing in limited third-person.

Also this would be a multiple viewpoint story. The story would also be quite dramatic, but this character is a bit of a 'smart-ass' would her making amusing little interjections weaken the impact of the more serious nature of the story.

She is who she is. I suspect her outlook is part of what makes her interesting.

BethS · May 22, 2013

WillSauger said:
Agree with Bufty on this. The example you showed, Honest Bill, reads like it is directly from a stream-of-consciousness first person narrative.

Again, you can't add the POV character's "voice" to a third person narrative.

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with this more. First, the OP's example does not look anything like stream-of-consciousness writing, unless you are defining that very differently from what I'm familiar with.

Second, deep third-person should be steeped in the character's voice. His outlook, the things he notices and thinks about, his prejudices, even his own vocabulary--all of these should be reflected in the narrative.

Bufty · May 22, 2013

George scuffed his way across the friggin' road. Why wasn't the friggin' shop open. He picked up the nearest friggin' brick and hurled it through the friggin' window. Friggin' glass went everywhere. Some friggin' shards nicked George's friggin' arm. Ah, shit. Who the fuck cares? Here comes the friggin' police. Might have friggin' known they would show up. The friggin' police van screamed to a friggin' stop fifty friggin' yards down the friggin' street...

I find it gets pretty tedious.

Animad345 · May 22, 2013

Bufty said:
I find it gets pretty tedious.

What are you talking about? That's literary gold, right there!

Everyone's giving you great advice, OP. I don't really have anything to add, except that it is tricky to get the hang of. I found that when I switched from only writing in the first person to mainly writing in the third. You will definitely get there.

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

Thanks everybody.

BethS, i find your words encouraging.

Bufty, Point well taken, i'll make sure i don't overdo it. Thanks

Animad345, Thanks, but since i'm new to this, everything will probably be quite tricky, so i might as well give it a go i reckon.

Roxxsmom · May 22, 2013

WillSauger said:
Again, you can't add the POV character's "voice" to a third person narrative.

I often agree with you on things Will, but I don't think I do here (though I disagree with the utmost respect and with the possibility that maybe we're just defining the concept of character voice differently). Isn't this precisely what an author is attempting to do with a deep third person narrative? Whether or not one likes this style or whether or not it is the best style for a given story is another call, but it is at least an illusion the writer is trying to create--the third person narrative coming in the pov character's words and voice, rather than a more neutral narrator's.

My thoughts on a deeper pov is that I wouldn't shoot for it with a character who has a really strong dialect, because like Bufty, I would probably find it tedious after a while. But maybe some writers can pull it off.

Juliette Wade just blogged on this very issue. I thought she raised some interesting points that may answer some of the questions you have. You should read the short stories she has linked on the site too. They're really cool. I read one of her stories that is told from the pov of an alien (in first person present, which I generally don't even like all that much), and by the time I reached the end, I was thinking like the creature. I stand in awe of such writing.

http://talktoyouniverse.blogspot.com/2013/05/different-voices-in-your-narrative.html

Honest Bill · May 22, 2013

Thanks Roxxsmom.

I hear what you're sayng about the strong dialect. I would try not to overdo that. Even in dialogue, it can get a bit tedious to have a character using weird language or overusing slang.

Thanks very much for the link too.

BethS · May 23, 2013

Bufty said:
George scuffed his way across the friggin' road. Why wasn't the friggin' shop open. He picked up the nearest friggin' brick and hurled it through the friggin' window. Friggin' glass went everywhere. Some friggin' shards nicked George's friggin' arm. Ah, shit. Who the fuck cares? Here comes the friggin' police. Might have friggin' known they would show up. The friggin' police van screamed to a friggin' stop fifty friggin' yards down the friggin' street...

I find it gets pretty tedious.

This is why we use a light hand with dialect as well. Everything in moderation, except the storytelling. That needs to be revved up and firing on all cylinders.

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