Do you write or attempt to write in DEEP POV?

I want to preface this by saying that I am most definitely not an authority on the subject, just another writer.

I try to avoid italics at all times during my writing, just as I do caps or exclamation points at the ends of sentences. The writing should do all the work, not the formatting.

As for deep POV, I've used it before, when the story called for it. Basically, I'd say you should try it, and if it seems natural, keep it. If not, cut it. Anything can work in a story, but you don't want it to seem unnatural, so that's what I would test for.

good question

I'm currently writing a mystery where the MC has three voices that talk to her. As part of the mystery solving process, she has a lot of inner dialog. In addition, she has memory loss, and details of her past come back to her as dreams. As you can imagine, the formatting, especially with italics, is challenging.

I'm using the age old rule; I know what's right when I see it. I'm not always consistent, but I try different combinations of italic and regular text and see what looks right.

Remember, the root purpose of italics is to maximize clarity--to set things off. Whatever helps the reader the most is what you should use.

I definitely find some inner thoughts need italics, and others don't, even in the same paragraph, but don't have a magic rule.

I'm pretty deep in with my characters. I don't use italics a lot, but I do get super close at times. I like a tighter, closer 3rd person POV, for example.

My WIP is very, very deep inside my MC's head (she is more or less having a psychotic episode)--first person, though.

The only parts of the narrative that I italicise are words spoken in conversation previously. If she's remembering a conversation, the speech is italicised. I also have some flashback scenes that are italicised.

Anna Spargo-Ryan said:

My WIP is very, very deep inside my MC's head (she is more or less having a psychotic episode)--first person, though.

The only parts of the narrative that I italicise are words spoken in conversation previously. If she's remembering a conversation, the speech is italicised. I also have some flashback scenes that are italicised.

Click to expand...

Yep, this is pretty much how I write, even in third.

I consider what I write to be deep third and first, but rarely use italics.....you can say "The guy looked like a fucking cheapass" without needing to say "The guy looked like a fucking cheapass, Richie thought.

I only italicize very specific lines of dialogue, 99% of the character's inner thoughts just come out. Mitch looked like twenty pounds of shit, all stuffed in a ten pound sack..."fuck you," she added. He should be so lucky (as opposed to I should be so lucky, he thought.), etc.

Here's an example from my WIP:

The hospital walls shot up, black and still. A heartbeat. My heartbeat. The room pulsed and shifted. Dave? Are you there? Babies crying down the hall, their lungs full of anger and of life, and the mothers going Won’t you just be quiet? and me going Good girl, so quiet and making sure the blanket was tucked around just right. Me peeling the sticker off the bassinette and rolling it into a piccolo and then staring, staring across the inner city buildings and the lights of the dock and out to the water where the boats carried everything away.

The italicised bits are conversation that was spoken aloud in the past.

I write very deep POV, first and third person. If the MC doesn't experience it first hand, then the reader doesn't either. I don't use italics for this. The narration is simply from the MC's POV.

An example in first person, from Ghost in the Park:

Driving the patrol car nearer the water, Chase parks it in an open space that is not so much of a parking lot as it is an area where countless tires have defeated the grass. Getting out of the car, it strikes me that this lake is actually quite pleasant. Far enough off the beaten path that it isn’t overly popular, all I can hear as I stand looking at the lake is birdsong, insects buzzing, the croaking of frogs, and a lone motorbike engine, fading in the distance. It certainly does not seem like a place one would find six dead bodies, and I say as much to Chase.


An example in third person, from Wyrd House:

The plywood over the broken windowpane in the door seemed an ill-fated omen. Perhaps she was foolish to consider a new relationship so soon after her break up with Nick. She was in the middle of trying to stop a metaphysical predator from racking up more victims, which also didn’t seem very conducive to romance. What was she doing going out on a date? She ought to tell Jeff that they should wait until the danger was past, and she felt more ready to date again.

In both those examples you are in my MC’s head, regardless whether it’s first or third person. No need for italics or any other formatting tricks. I certainly have read books that used italics to good effect, but I would use such things sparingly, or make it a strong and consistent style choice.

I use italics for thoughts the narrator is consciously aware of thinking. The thoughts he or she thinks about thinking, if that makes sense. Most thoughts we just sort of have and don't really need to process. But sometimes you're aware of thinking something specific, and you end up thinking about the thought. Those are the only kinds of thoughts I italicize.

I do this, too, but it's a thought that is more like talking to herself, and when I do it, I change tense. For example:

She sat in the disabled car, senses alert, and waited. Fifteen minutes went by, then another. The man was gone, had to be. He was just a lecherous drunk and she had fought him off. He wouldn't be back. She waited another half hour, then relaxed a little. She could go back to the casino now and call the auto club, get back on the road. Who do you think you're kidding, Sarah? You know damned well you're not going back out there before daylight.

I use italics in very short sentences that transmit internal thought. And I only do it to emphasize how important that particular thought is to the scene--sometimes crucial--other times not so much and showcasing an important personality quirk of the MC.

tri

ah, we're getting close

I've been trying to decide why I sometimes use italics, and sometimes don't for inner thoughts. This is pretty close.

Lets say my character directs a thought at herself. Focused, like she's talking to herself.

You idiot, you forgot to lock the door again.

Italics used.

But suppose its more like routine description.

She'd forgotten to lock the door again.

No italics. She is also more distant. Not as deep.

kuwisdelu said:

I use italics for thoughts the narrator is consciously aware of thinking. The thoughts he or she thinks about thinking, if that makes sense. Most thoughts we just sort of have and don't really need to process. But sometimes you're aware of thinking something specific, and you end up thinking about the thought. Those are the only kinds of thoughts I italicize.

Click to expand...

This is something I'm trying to do.

Someone I've read who does this really well- Terry Goodkind. You just have to find each character's unique voice & use that voice while writing for them. The unique way they think & talk can be utilized in how you would write while under their POV.

As I said though, I'm attempting it & it's pretty damn hard. It's like you have to school yourself to practically become a completely different writer for every scene, while still keeping you yourself at the core of it all...

Sentosa: To italicise or not? Some books/articles are adamant: no italics. Others are the reverse. (snip) To perhaps clarify, I define internals and internalisations as follows: these include but are not necessarily limited to (i) thoughts, (ii) remarks, (iii) judgments and (iv) opinions.
Of course a deep POV character may cover all of these situations in dialogue.

What do you do?

Click to expand...

When my narrator is thinking/remembering, I use italics. Two examples:

“Chug-a-lug, Mike. You got ten seconds. One, two—”

“Stop it.”

“Okay, okay. Don’t get your panties in a bunch,” he says.

Fuck you, Jerkface.

Click to expand...

I got it in my hand, lifting it, feeling the weight of it. Then I raise it up, put the end of it against my head above my ear. I sit there like that, holding the gun above my ear, feeling it pressing in. Blood’s rushing in my ears. Hurrying up. Moving while it still can.

Pussy Boy.

Click to expand...

Sentosa: I normally don't have these problems. I have a hint that I may be having greater issues with my draft story line and its structure. Let me explain more. (snip) Because neither character discusses their backgrounds, I find in this WIP I am using more internals than before.

Click to expand...

Why might that be an issue?

I occasionally use short bursts of italics for emphasis.

Otherwise I tend to think internal thoughts are pretty obvious to the reader.

quicklime said:

I consider what I write to be deep third and first, but rarely use italics.....you can say "The guy looked like a fucking cheapass" without needing to say "The guy looked like a fucking cheapass, Richie thought.

I only italicize very specific lines of dialogue, 99% of the character's inner thoughts just come out. Mitch looked like twenty pounds of shit, all stuffed in a ten pound sack..."fuck you," she added. He should be so lucky (as opposed to I should be so lucky, he thought.), etc.

Click to expand...

Sentosa said:

To perhaps clarify, I define internals and internalisations as follows: these include but are not necessarily limited to (i) thoughts, (ii) remarks, (iii) judgments and (iv) opinions.

Click to expand...

In a deep POV, those things should cover pretty much everything other than another character's dialogue, and sometimes even that*. The way actions, characters, and places are described should reveal what the POV character thinks of them, should show the character's prejudices and perspectives, as quick demonstrated above (with the description of Mitch). I try not to draw a line between those things and specific thoughts, so I eschew italics. It's not like there's a moment when I'm not thinking.

*: often we hear what we want to hear rather than what was actually said; different tones of voice, emphasis on certain words, etc. Those things can fundamentally alter the meaning or delivery of the other's characters' lines.

kkbe, would you PLEASE think of the children?!

Yeah, I would agree with using italics sparingly. Doesn't really work to go 'Mark is a dickhead' in the conventional third person narrative. Unless he really is one. Then feel free.

But seriously, don't worry about it. Whole paragraphs in italics can be an eyesore, but I don't think anyone's going to shoot you for the infrequent use of it; I don't think my current WIP would work at all if there were no internal thoughts expressed, ever. It would take me too far away from the characters, somehow.

I very much have a deep POV and enjoy the psychological development of the character during the course of the novel. In fact my novels are very much about the protagonist struggling with what they believe and trying to qualify it and rationalise it and how the events in the novel impact on this.

I never italicise. I never put thoughts in speech marks. I work to try and have the narrative descend into the character's POV naturally - almost as if I were biasing the narrative to present only how the character would see things.

I've never had any problems with this and most readers enjoy what I do.

I suppose Stendhal did it best in his Le Rouge et le Noir - apparently the first psychological novel where the protagonist is motivated by his own beliefs and thoughts rather than the events surrounding him. It's an excellent novel with an absorbing protagonist.

Animad345: kkbe, would you PLEASE think of the children?!

Click to expand...

I know. I'm horrible.

Sentosa: Possibly, only possibly, because I'm concentrating too much and working too hard.

Click to expand...

Oh. Well, knock that crap off.

onesecondglance: The way actions, characters, and places are described should reveal what the POV character thinks of them, should show the character's prejudices and perspectives. . .

Click to expand...

I don't think there's any kind of hard or fast rule, no 'shoulds'. Interesting take on it here: http://killzoneauthors.blogspot.com/2010/04/did-you-just-use-italics.html The author discusses Lee Child's use of italics:

In The Hard Way by Lee Child, a man in a hooded sweatshirt who takes money off drunks is walking down the street, and sees: A big man, but inert. His limbs were relaxed in sleep.

As the hooded man moves closer, Child inserts a series of quick thoughts, between paragraphs of narrative:

His hair was clean, he wasn't malnourished.
Not a bum with a pair of stolen shoes.
[more narrative]
A prime target.

And so on. It's just an efficient way to get the point across and get out of the way. Could the same thing be done without italics? Perhaps. Should it? That's up to you.

Click to expand...

kk - just stick "I think" in front of everything I say.

onesecondglance said:

kk - just stick "I think" in front of everything I say.

Click to expand...

You wimp!
(I think the 'I think' is assumed in discussions like this. See what I did there?)