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Celeste_2sweet · May 21, 2013

When writing do you think it's important describe *through the dialogue rather than go on about the scenery.

What I mean is, when I'm writing I find it hard to describe things now, because it sounds too much.

But, if I don't, then it seems like I'm not trying.

There are a ton of authors who describe everything, and I don't think it pulls me out of the story- if anything describing gets my attention.

For example, I was reading (don't judge) The Vampire Diaries- The Awakening written by L.J Smith in 1991, and she says:

"Katherine had blue eyes like..."

And then partway down the page it says 'she looked at them with misty blue eyes'

Even though she had already said blue eyes once in that passage, and all the way back in the book.

Is it okay to be repetitive?

It doesn't bother me as a reader, but, it makes me annoyed that an author can get away with it, and I get penalised.

It also is missing commas, for eg, wet misty blue eyes- not: wet, misty blue-eyes.

Anyway, what do you think?

A lot of people have grammar mistakes in novels, but no teenager seems to care.

But I was told you won't get published unless you're grammar is almost perfect- they won't even look at it.

Let me know.

cornflake · May 21, 2013

Lots of teenagers care. They generally eschew stuff like, say, Twilight. I'm not just generally Meyer bashing, the thing is badly written, and while many people don't care and like the story, many do.

Most everything published has errors. I've spotted typos and errors in countless works - of all genres and levels. The NY Times is as careful as anyone on their deadlines can be, with a slew of very experienced, well-educated copyeditors, editors, etc., and stuff slips through every single day.

Some publishers are less careful, for a variety of reasons. Your work needn't be grammatically perfect to be looked at. Your query letter should be, same as you don't need to be a perfect employee but your resume should be flawless.

As to the example, it should be: 'wet, misty, blue eyes,' I think, though I'm not sure which way the person means to employ misty. It reads redundant that way.

Kerosene · May 21, 2013

Are you asking about describing through character's dialogue. Like, "Wow Mandy, that blue dress with the white frills looks great. And you've curled your blonde hair."
That gets rather annoying very quickly, and is obvious on what you're doing.

If you're going to describe anything, it would be for a reason. Like the character's fashion makes a point of their personality, or reflects badly from others around her. "Mandy wore her favorite chain bracelets and piercings that night, and the people at the party whispered among themselves of how she looked like a ruffian pulled from the streets."
Also, adding action to description and keeping it short works well. "Mandy brushed the cat hair from her blue dress."
You don't have to try too hard as some description goes a long way.

For the "wet, misty blue eyes--" bit: That's three adjectives to describe eyes. Too many, and like cornflake said, "misty" really doesn't describe much.

Putputt · May 21, 2013

You have quite a few questions here...

When writing do you think it's important describe *through the dialogue rather than go on about the scenery.

I think it's important to have a good balance of description and dialogue. I'm pretty bad with descriptions myself. I have to go back and add them in when I write the second draft, but you do whatever works for you.

Is it okay to be repetitive?

It depends. Something like mentioning "blue eyes" several times throughout the book would make me roll my dry, boring, black eyes but wouldn't make me put the book down. I think the question you should be asking is, "What purpose does this serve?"

A lot of people have grammar mistakes in novels, but no teenager seems to care.

But I was told you won't get published unless you're grammar is almost perfect- they won't even look at it.

I'm not sure how you can possibly know that no teenager seems to care about bad grammar in books, but I'm guessing the grammatical errors found in published books are minor. Also, when you submit your book, it will be to an agent, not a teenager. And while I'm not sure about teenagers, I'm pretty certain that agents do care about grammar. So ignore it at your own peril.

kkbe · May 21, 2013

Hi Celeste. My turn.

Celeste_2sweet said:
I was reading (don't judge) The Vampire Diaries- The Awakening written by L.J Smith in 1991, and she says:

"Katherine had blue eyes like..."

And then partway down the page it says 'she looked at them with misty blue eyes'

Even though she had already said blue eyes once in that passage, and all the way back in the book.

Is it okay to be repetitive?

Depends. Like Will said, What purpose does it serve? Maybe none. Maybe the author is hammering home something. Maybe going for cadence. If repetition is constant and glaringly obvious, that would get old real quick.

It doesn't bother me as a reader, but, it makes me annoyed that an author can get away with it, and I get penalised.

Do you want to get away with it? If you notice an author doing that, and it's bugging you, I can't imagine you would want to emulate that in your own writing.

It also is missing commas, for eg, wet misty blue eyes- not: wet, misty blue-eyes.

Anyway, what do you think?

I think in cases like the one you provide it could be an editing error, or it could be a stylistic choice on the part of the author. In my WIP I'm leaving a lot of commas out. A kid is narrating and he has a way of talking which I'm trying to capture. Not sure how that's going to be received by an agent or editor or publisher. Nor even a beta. I guess we shall see. . .

A lot of people have grammar mistakes in novels, but no teenager seems to care.

Not so sure about that one. Who wants to read something rife with grammatical errors? (Uh oh, now I'm thinking of my WIP. . . :chair

)

But I was told you won't get published unless you're grammar is almost perfect- they won't even look at it.

There's an expectation that one's manuscript will be as polished as possible, even right at the start when the writer is seeking agent representation. That's why some writers hire editorial services. And many publishing houses have an editorial staff to catch grammatical errors (among other things). Nobody wants to put out shoddy work. But some writers mess with convention on purpose. Thinking of The Road, in which Cormac McCarthy left out most punctuation, including apostrophes. So he'd write "dont" and "isnt". No quotes around dialogue. He had his reasons--the sparseness of that world is reflected in the writing. Everything is reduced, pared back, flayed bare, including the narrative. His novel was published that way. It won the Pulitzer Prize for literature.

I suspect you do want to write grammatically-correct stuff. Hopefully, you have some good grammar books at your disposal, The Elements of Style, things of that nature. If you aren't sure your writing is as polished as it needs to be, a beta could help you there or you could hire an editor to lbl your work.

As for other writers getting away with shoddy writing--it happens. Comparing your work to theirs is counterproductive, though. Instead of focusing on what they do wrong, focus on what you are doing to make your own writing the best it can be.

Celeste_2sweet · May 21, 2013

Thank you guys, I really appreciate it.

Is there such a thing as asking too many questions? I just want to get opinions and feedback.

Now whenever I read some one's work, all I can do is complain about spelling errors.

Thanks again x

kyocrisis · May 21, 2013

Celeste_2sweet said:
Thank you guys, I really appreciate it.

Is there such a thing as asking too many questions? I just want to get opinions and feedback.

Now whenever I read some one's work, all I can do is complain about spelling errors.

Thanks again x

Yes there is, that was your last one.

/kidding.

also I agree with everyone's points as well.
One thing to add as far as the repetition, if you do it right it can be a neat mechanic to use, such as a character always noticing a certain color, etc. Just don't do it on every page or anything like that, spread out throughout the chapters. You can also hint at things to the reader in this way.

kkbe · May 21, 2013

Is there such a thing as asking too many questions? I just want to get opinions and feedback.

Nope. There is a learning curve and everybody learns differently. Don't forget to avail yourself of books on grammar, punctuation, etc., and read, read, read.

Now whenever I read some one's work, all I can do is complain about spelling errors.

You mean, like in SYW? Some people suck at spelling--me included--and for others, English may be their second language, or there may be another reason, like dyslexia. If you see a lot of spelling errors, nothing wrong with noting that.

Generally, when people post on SYW they mention what they hope critters will look at: plot or characterization, dialogue. Commenting on those things may seem daunting, especially when you are uncertain. But I think people appreciate honesty and you may offer them some insight they hadn't considered. Don't sell yourself short, Celeste. It's all part of getting confidence in your own writing, part of that learning process we all go through.

quicklime · May 21, 2013

Celeste_2sweet said:
Thank you guys, I really appreciate it.

Is there such a thing as asking too many questions? I just want to get opinions and feedback.

Now whenever I read some one's work, all I can do is complain about spelling errors.

Thanks again x

no, although if you ask a million easily-searched, generic questions you may be advised to start cozying up to the search feature, or even just browsing the first 2-3 pages of "Basic Writing Questions" and "Novels" to see if the same thing has already been answered three times.

Ask away, but it might be worth a quick scan anyway, as you can play catch-up fairly quickly in that way.

VoireyLinger · May 21, 2013

Celeste_2sweet said:
When writing do you think it's important describe *through the dialogue rather than go on about the scenery.

What I mean is, when I'm writing I find it hard to describe things now, because it sounds too much.

But, if I don't, then it seems like I'm not trying.

There are a ton of authors who describe everything, and I don't think it pulls me out of the story- if anything describing gets my attention.

It's all about what fits the story and were it fits in the story. Pacing, POV character and such do play a determining factor in how much description fits where. You don't want your main character to go into depth describing the heroine's in poetic terms when he's a tough-thinking street rat in the middle of a fist fight, for instance. But if the moment is more relaxed and the character is a little more of a romantic, then getting a bit lost in her eyes might fit.

In any case it can be overdone. A half page of anyone waxing poetic on the color of someone's eyes isn't building a plot.

Even though she had already said blue eyes once in that passage, and all the way back in the book.

Is it okay to be repetitive?

Repetitive... to a point. Personally, I wouldn't repeat an eye color in the same passage but I've heard some writers insist that readers won't remember if you don't say it three times. I think those writers underestimate the reader, but that's me. I prefer a more scant, streamlined approach to description.

It doesn't bother me as a reader, but, it makes me annoyed that an author can get away with it, and I get penalised.

*snip*

A lot of people have grammar mistakes in novels, but no teenager seems to care.

But I was told you won't get published unless you're grammar is almost perfect- they won't even look at it.

I believe every writer needs to strive to write the best he or she can and stop using easy outs like, 'but she did it..." You know better, so do better.

Also, it's not about perfection, it's about how much work the editor and agent would have to put into making you marketable. If I'm looking to fill one slot in my production schedule, why should I pick a manuscript that has sloppy grammar and will need a lot of work, when I have another one on my desk that is much more polished?

I think any author who is willing to settle for being passable instead of working to be better probably isn't really ready to get a contract and make a sale.

When that author buckles down, stops looking at 20 year old books and studdies the current market, listens and adopts the advice of authors marketing for today and works their butt of to be a better writer, they might be ready to start.

jjdebenedictis · May 21, 2013

I'd just like to note that there isn't only one correct way to write, even when it comes to punctuation. Grammar-fascists might froth and argue about it, but it's not wrong to write "misty blue eyes" instead of "misty, blue eyes" as long as you do it consistently throughout the manuscript.

A lot of editors prefer a more minimalist approach to commas and take almost all of them out. I can see why, too; I work with someone who uses the maximal approach to commas and I find it really intrusive, even though she's using them correctly. For example, she might write, "Could you, please, email me back with your answer." Personally, I wouldn't use the two commas in that, and I wouldn't consider it an error that I hadn't.

The main thing is that you're consistent and that you can tell the difference.

I.e. an editor can discern whether a writer is using odd grammar for stylistic reasons or they simply don't know any better. An editor can tell when a writer is using Jamaican spellings and when they flat-out can't spell. An editor can spot the difference between a writer taking a minimalist approach to commas and a writer who can't place them correctly.

You can break the rules as long as you've got a rock-solid understanding of what they are. That's why you see a variety of writing styles, not all of them technically "correct", in published books. There isn't only one right way to do this.

Polenth · May 21, 2013

Your writing, including your grammar, needs to be as good as you can get it. Noting that published books have mistakes and poor writing isn't helpful, because it doesn't mean you can get away with those same mistakes. You want to improve your chances of selling as much as you can. So you want to be as good as you can be.

Some things aren't about right or wrong though. They're style preferences, and no one can tell you what you should prefer reading. To one person, any repetition might be too much. To another, they won't notice if eye colour is repeated ten times in one chapter.

Roxxsmom · May 21, 2013

I would find the repeating the character's eye color over and over, especially within the same scene, would be annoying. Unless there is a clear reason for doing so (within the pov of the character, like he's obsessed with that aspect of the girl's appearance, or blue eyes are really unusual in that setting or something).

There's a huge range of styles with regard to description, and a huge range of tastes with regards to this as well. In another thread, someone mentioned how George RR Martin's detail rich style (where he spends a lot of time describing armor, clothing, food, environmental details etc.) made it a snap to adapt his books to the screen. Some readers love this about his writing, but some find those details bog them down.

Martin wrote in limited third, but the characters' pov was a bit like a movie camera. He never showed anything that the pov character ostensibly couldn't have seen or noticed or felt in the environment, but I would argue that it is unlikely that all his characters would be that aware of everything going on in their surroundings at all times. In that sense, it "felt" a bit like omniscient.

But it worked.

There are plenty of other successful writers who go lean with details. They provide a handful of details, ones that that the pov character clearly notices, and let the reader fill in the blanks. Some readers prefer this style, some don't.

At some level, I think you have to decide what kind of point of view you are writing in. If you're shooting for first or deep third, the camera panning the environment for every detail will seem out of place. If you're writing in omniscient or a more distant version of limited third, it might not.

I'm far from being an expert in this, but I'd suggest you be willing to experiment to see what writing style works for you, examine the work of some of your favorite authors and see how they do it, and once you decide on an approach, to try and be consistent.

jpoelma13 · May 21, 2013

Repetition does tend to draw people attention to things. Unless a good reason to be repeating yourself, I'd recommend against it.

Celeste_2sweet · May 21, 2013

Thank you everyone. x

I am going to research more, and read, read, *read*.

arkanis50 · May 21, 2013

I've only recently come to terms with the fact I'm also a reasonably spartan writer when it comes to description... and I've stopped caring. I like having minimal description and I write in that style because that is what I enjoy reading. Just keep writing and do not worry about it I say.

No description

Celeste_2sweet

The smile that won't go!

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Kerosene

Your Pixie Queen

Putputt

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg

kkbe

Huh.

Celeste_2sweet

The smile that won't go!

kyocrisis

Einherjar

kkbe

Huh.

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

VoireyLinger

Angel Wing Fetish

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

Polenth

Mushroom

Roxxsmom

Raised by Wolves

jpoelma13

Celeste_2sweet

The smile that won't go!

arkanis50