Teenager Charged With Felony over lesbian relationship

nighttimer · May 18, 2013

I thought about posting this in Politics and Current Events, but this forum seems like a natural fit for this jaw-dropping story of bigotry and intolerance as well.

A Florida family says their 18-year-old daughter was charged with a felony and expelled from high school as a result of a consensual, same-sex relationship with another student.

Kaitlyn Hunt started dating a female classmate at the beginning of the school year when she was 17 and the girl she was dating was 15. According to an account posted to Facebook by Kaitlyn’s mother, in February, just after Kaitlyn turned 18, she was arrested on felony charges at the behest of her girlfriend’s parents. The specific crime was “sexual battery on a person 12-16 years old.”

Kaitlyn’s mother believes the charges were motivated by anti-gay animus:
They were out to destroy my daughter, they feel like my daughter “made” their daughter gay. They are bigoted, religious zeolites [sic] that see being gay as a sin and wrong, and they blame my daughter.

But Kaitlyn’s problems did not end there. Her girlfriends’s parents appealed to the school board and had her expelled from Sebastian River High School. Kaitlyn’s mom reports that the State Attorney, Brian Workman, has offered Kaitlyn a plea deal of “of two years house arrest and one year probation.” Kaitlyn has until next Friday to accept the plea deal or face a trial.

The family has started a petition calling on the state attorney to drop the charges against Kaitlyn.

Unbelievable. Well, at least I wish this kind of thing was unbelievable.

What is it about Florida that this sort of nonsense seems to always go on all the time? Is it craziness from the heat?

NOTE: I attempted to add my name to the petition at Change.org, but the site seems to be experiencing some connectivity issues.

lilyWhite · May 18, 2013

Existing law isn't exactly on Kaitlyn's side. Age of consent in Florida is 18, and there appears to be no close-in-age exceptions below 16. Someone who is 23 or younger can have sexual relations with someone who is 16 or 17, however.

Still, there's no indication that the relationship was anything but consentual, and I find the idea that a less-than-three-year difference (18 to 15) under the age of consent is unacceptable while a seven-year difference (23 to 16) is to be quite absurd. I'm really hoping the best for Kaitlyn—it's entirely possibly that this is all a vendetta against her from the parents of her girlfriend, and from all accounts it was two consenting teenagers in a relationship, certainly nothing to warrant a felony that will haunt her for the rest of her life—but I can't help but to be pessimistic.

Chasing the Horizon · May 18, 2013

How is this any different from the 18yo boys who are sent to jail and given a sex offender record due to sleeping with 15 or 16yo classmates every year? Parents can and do press charges against straight relationships for every stupid reason from religion to racism to not liking how the older person dresses. Why not throw a nice dose of homophobia into the mix?

Well, maybe this will bring attention to how stupid and broken America's consent laws are.

Amadan · May 18, 2013

Chasing the Horizon said:
How is this any different from the 18yo boys who are sent to jail and given a sex offender record due to sleeping with 15 or 16yo classmates every year?

Yeah -- as tragic as this situation is, and probably it is motivated by a generous portion of homophobia -- I don't think you can really make it out to be a "jaw-dropping story of bigotry and intolerance" unless you're prepared to take on age-of-consent laws in general.

nighttimer · May 18, 2013

Amadan said:
Yeah -- as tragic as this situation is, and probably it is motivated by a generous portion of homophobia -- I don't think you can really make it out to be a "jaw-dropping story of bigotry and intolerance" unless you're prepared to take on age-of-consent laws in general.

Point taken, but I believe that's just the excuse here for the parents of the 15-year-old to sic the law on Kaitlyn.

The real issue is they are in denial about their daughter's sexuality and are feeding the myth of evil lesbians seducing and recruiting innocent straight girls.

J.S.F. · May 18, 2013

nighttimer said:
Point taken, but I believe that's just the excuse here for the parents of the 15-year-old to sic the law on Kaitlyn.

The real issue is they are in denial about their daughter's sexuality and are feeding the myth of evil lesbians seducing and recruiting innocent straight girls.

---

Actually, no, there I'd have to disagree with you on this. The real issue is the age thing. We can argue all you like on this vis-a-vis the age of consent laws being dumb, but as the law stands--gay or straight--the other girl was underage.

Now, I won't deny that there's some severe homophobia going on, but again, if I were the judge, I'd be looking past the concept of same-sex relationships (which should be a non-issue, anyway) and just at the age of the participants. Even the consensual nature of it all--and from reading the links posted I'm gonna believe it WAS consensual--doesn't take from the fact that the other girl was legally underage.

If it were a heterosexual relationship with an older guy and a younger girl, I'm very sure the same rule would be applied. JMO...

benbradley · May 18, 2013

I'm sure many remember this story from years ago of the justice system getting involved with teen sex - this is the thread where we discussed the Georgia Supreme Court ordering Genarlow Wilson's release from prison where he was serving a ten-year sentence:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81835
Archive of the AJC story mentioned at the end of the thread, where he can't wait to go to Morehouse College:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080113...atlanta/stories/2008/01/10/genarlow_0110.html

Update to today (Sunday), he's graduating from college, and the commencement speaker is ...
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/22289337/man-imprisoned-for-teen-sex-graduates

ATLANTA (AP) - A young Georgia man whose imprisonment eight years ago sparked a debate over teen sex laws is now graduating from college.

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports (http://bit.ly/17Ko0wC ) 27-year-old Genarlow Wilson will graduate from Morehouse College on Sunday, when the commencement address will be delivered by President Barack Obama.

thebloodfiend · May 18, 2013

Where are Romeo and Juliet laws when you need them?

J.S.F. said:
If it were a heterosexual relationship with an older guy and a younger girl, I'm very sure the same rule would be applied. JMO...

There's a history of the older person in the same-sex couples getting harsher punishment.

Texas doesn't even have equal protection. In fact, I'm not even sure if same-sex couples are protected under Romeo and Juliet laws at all. Granted, it's Florida, not Texas, but it's not an equal issue in every single state.

Texas laws governing crimes of indecency with a child cover sexual contact with minors under the age of 17. The "Romeo and Juliet" provision sets up a legal defense if the couple is older than 14, in a consensual relationship and within three years of each other.

But since 1981, the law only has applied to couples of the opposite sex, a distinction gay rights groups say is discriminatory and wrongly criminalizes homosexuals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/10/texas-romeo-and-juliet-law_n_3054471.html

J.S.F. · May 19, 2013

thebloodfiend said:
Where are Romeo and Juliet laws when you need them? There's a history of the older person in the same-sex couples getting harsher punishment.

/QUOTE]

---

Fair enough. When I wrote "older" I meant someone eighteen or above. But you are right when you say each state has its own laws. Texas has its way of doing things and Florida does things in its own fashion vis-a-vis the law regarding minors. Whether the age of consent will be lowered in the future is not for me to decide--natch; that's for the powers-that-be to debate over and make a ruling.

However, as it stands, the law is still the law and my guess (FWIW) is that the judge will say that the older girl is liable. Consensual act or not, the girl she was involved with was still underage according to the laws of Florida. It's a very unfortunate situation for the older girl, but I don't think the judge is going to see it her way. Same-sex or not, fifteen is fifteen.

kuwisdelu · May 19, 2013

And people wonder why I have a problem with how these age of consent laws are written.

Amadan · May 19, 2013

kuwisdelu said:
And people wonder why I have a problem with how these age of consent laws are written.

Well, it's very hard to write age of consent laws that won't give rise to unjust situations - they are by nature one-size-fits-all rules being applied to situations that are very much not all of one kind.

For example, I personally would consider an 18-year-old hooking up with a 15-year-old to be maybe a little bit sketchy, but probably not predatory. But start moving the slider bar - the 15-year-old becomes 14, then 13? Or the 18-year-old becomes 19, then 20, then 21? At some point, most of us say "Stop."

And even then, we're going on generalizations about age - there are rare 13-year-olds who could probably give informed consent (if not legally), and there are certainly 17-year-olds who are too vulnerable and naive to do so, even if they are fair game legally.

So, this particular case is sad, but I can't see it being tossed just because it's about a same-sex relationship and thereby presumably based on homophobia.

kuwisdelu · May 19, 2013

Amadan said:
Well, it's very hard to write age of consent laws that won't give rise to unjust situations - they are by nature one-size-fits-all rules being applied to situations that are very much not all of one kind.

For example, I personally would consider an 18-year-old hooking up with a 15-year-old to be maybe a little bit sketchy, but probably not predatory. But start moving the slider bar - the 15-year-old becomes 14, then 13? Or the 18-year-old becomes 19, then 20, then 21? At some point, most of us say "Stop."

And even then, we're going on generalizations about age - there are rare 13-year-olds who could probably give informed consent (if not legally), and there are certainly 17-year-olds who are too vulnerable and naive to do so, even if they are fair game legally.

I tend to think it should be up to a jury to decide whether consent could be given or not. There's going to be a trial anyway, so it doesn't seem like it would be an undue burden to me.

In a case like this, the trial would occur, because the parents initiated it on behalf of their minor daughter, and it would presumably be thrown out exactly because it is based on homophobia rather than lack of consent.

Amadan · May 19, 2013

kuwisdelu said:
I tend to think it should be up to a jury to decide whether consent could be given or not. There's going to be a trial anyway, so it doesn't seem like it would be an undue burden to me.

I dunno... show a picture of a precocious 12-year-old who can dress up to look 16 and has a lengthy sexual history, and a lot of juries would figure she knew what she was doing. I dislike the idea of convincing juries on a case by case basis whether a particular underage person is fair game.

RichardGarfinkle · May 19, 2013

kuwisdelu said:
I tend to think it should be up to a jury to decide whether consent could be given or not. There's going to be a trial anyway, so it doesn't seem like it would be an undue burden to me.

In a case like this, the trial would occur, because the parents initiated it on behalf of their minor daughter, and it would presumably be thrown out exactly because it is based on homophobia rather than lack of consent.

But making consent a matter for the jury, implicitly puts the younger person on trial rather than the elder. This sounds like it opens the door to blame the victim trials in statutory rape cases.

Chrissy · May 19, 2013

nighttimer said:
What is it about Florida that this sort of nonsense seems to always go on all the time? Is it craziness from the heat?

Now, now. No need for that, eh? It's hot in all the southern states right about now.

kuwisdelu · May 19, 2013

Amadan said:
I dunno... show a picture of a precocious 12-year-old who can dress up to look 16 and has a lengthy sexual history, and a lot of juries would figure she knew what she was doing. I dislike the idea of convincing juries on a case by case basis whether a particular underage person is fair game.

I have to admit that if the 12-year-old dressed himself or herself to look 16 and had a lengthy (and consensual) sexual history... I'd be inclined to figure he or she knew what she was doing as well.

In that case, I'd say the victim probably does understand consent, and point-blank ask whether he or she consented. (That part's still important, right?)

In your previous post, you said "there are rare 13-year-olds who could probably give informed consent (if not legally)", so are you drawing a hard line at 12 years? Or are you saying that such a 12-year-old as depicted in your example wouldn't call rape on a rapist? Or are you saying that rape culture is still so strong and prevalent that even if the victim called "rape" that the "mitigating" evidence would lead the jury to believe it wasn't rape? (IMO, the last is the strongest counter-argument of the three.

)

RichardGarfinkle said:
But making consent a matter for the jury, implicitly puts the younger person on trial rather than the elder. This sounds like it opens the door to blame the victim trials in statutory rape cases.

The way I see it is that it makes the burden of proof exactly the same as if it were a rape trial where the victim is an adult.*

If that's a problem, I see that as an indictment of how difficult it is to prosecute a rape trial where the victim is an adult.

Fix that, and you fix both cases, and it's win-win for everyone who doesn't like rape.

*With the addendum that if the victim is as young as 12 or 13 or younger, the average jury would probably recognize the inability to consent and prosecute no matter what in the vast majority of cases, making it a moot issue, but I'm an optimist like that...

ETA: And here I was hoping that if I phrased it as simply and non-controversially as I thought I did in post #10, that I wouldn't re-open this whole can of worms again this time... I guess I'm bad at this.

Amadan · May 19, 2013

kuwisdelu said:
I have to admit that if the 12-year-old dressed himself or herself to look 16 and had a lengthy (and consensual) sexual history... I'd be inclined to figure he or she knew what she was doing as well.

In that case, I'd say the victim probably does understand consent, and point-blank ask whether he or she consented. (That part's still important, right?)

In your previous post, you said "there are rare 13-year-olds who could probably give informed consent (if not legally)", so are you drawing a hard line at 12 years? Or are you saying that such a 12-year-old as depicted in your example wouldn't call rape on a rapist? Or are you saying that rape culture is still so strong and prevalent that even if the victim called "rape" that the "mitigating" evidence would lead the jury to believe it wasn't rape? (IMO, the last is the strongest counter-argument of the three. )

The way I see it is that it makes the burden of proof exactly the same as if it were a rape trial where the victim is an adult.*

If that's a problem, I see that as an indictment of how difficult it is to prosecute a rape trial where the victim is an adult.

Fix that, and you fix both cases, and it's win-win for everyone who doesn't like rape.

*With the addendum that if the victim is as young as 12 or 13 or younger, the average jury would probably prosecute no matter what, but I'm an optimist...

I confess I am having a hard time following your arguments or discerning exactly what your position is.

My position is that the vast majority of kids (no, I don't have a "hard line" where 100% of adolescents become adult enough to give consent) don't have the mental and emotional maturity to give meaningful consent, so even if a physically mature 12-year-old dresses provocatively and likes sex, that doesn't mean it's okay for grown men to have sex with her. You can talk really young children into sex and convince them they like it, too. This is pretty much what slippery slopes are made of.

kuwisdelu · May 19, 2013

Amadan said:
I confess I am having a hard time following your arguments or discerning exactly what your position is.

Likewise...

so even if a physically mature 12-year-old dresses provocatively and likes sex, that doesn't mean it's okay for grown men to have sex with her.

Is it okay for her to have sex with another 12-year-old but not a 21-year-old then? I don't understand.

The way I see it, if you're capable of consent, you're capable of consent, and if you're being coerced or forced, you're being coerced or forced. It's that simple.

Amadan · May 19, 2013

kuwisdelu said:
Is it okay for her to have sex with another 12-year-old but not a 21-year-old then? I don't understand.

It's not "okay" but it's not so likely to be predatory.

The way I see it, if you're capable of consent, you're capable of consent, and if you're being coerced or forced, you're being coerced or forced. It's that simple.

There's a difference between the ability to say "yes" and informed consent. It's the same reason why 12-year-olds aren't allowed to sign legal contracts.

kuwisdelu · May 19, 2013

Amadan said:
There's a difference between the ability to say "yes" and informed consent. It's the same reason why 12-year-olds aren't allowed to sign legal contracts.

When I say "consent" I do mean "fully-aware of potential risks and ramifications, i.e. 'informed'" consent.

My position is simply...

1. If one is capable of such consent, then that consent should be considered with the same weight and validity regardless of the age of either partner.

2. If one if forced, coerced, brainwashed (e.g., "groomed"), incapacitated, or incapable of the consent in (1), then it's rape, also regardless of the age of either partner.

3. If the "consent" described in (1) is obtained under circumstances of (2), then it's (2), which is rape.

WriterTrek · May 19, 2013

Whether this was motivated by homophobia or not... the real issue, as others have said, is the age and the laws regarding it.

I wouldn't sign a petition here any more than I would sign a petition if it was an 18-year old boy and a 15-year old girl, because the same charges could be brought up in that situation.

I also support age-of-consent laws, for whatever that's worth. They don't seem that restrictive to me.

kuwisdelu · May 19, 2013

Aaaaaand here I go...

I guess it can't be helped.

WriterTrek said:
Whether this was motivated by homophobia or not... the real issue, as others have said, is the age and the laws regarding it.

I wouldn't sign a petition here any more than I would sign a petition if it was an 18-year old boy and a 15-year old girl, because the same charges could be brought up in that situation.

I also support age-of-consent laws, for whatever that's worth. They don't seem that restrictive to me.

So you think it makes perfect sense that it's all fine and legal for them to have been having sex at first, until the earth rotates another 360º, and suddenly it's illegal and it's wrong until the earth reaches a point in its orbit such that its number of total revolutions since the younger girl's birth is evenly divisible by 16?

Yes, it was fine when you were both young, and it'll be fine again when you're both older, but now that one of your ages has crossed this arbitrary threshold, despite your difference in age being exactly the same as it was before, it's suddenly wrong and illegal. Yes, that makes perfect sense.

I also disagree that bigotry played no part here. The family probably wouldn't have reported it and pressed charges at all if it weren't a lesbian relationship. If the families were both okay with it, probably the law would never have gotten involved.

Chrissy · May 19, 2013

I think the age of consent should be at most 15.

And a 15 y.o. with a 17 or 18 y.o.? Give me a freakin' break. That's a sophomore dating a senior. PUHLEEZE. Don't we have bigger problems?

kuwisdelu · May 19, 2013

Chrissy said:
And a 15 y.o. with a 17 or 18 y.o.? Give me a freakin' break. That's a sophomore dating a senior. PUHLEEZE. Don't we have bigger problems?

What could be more important than stopping high schoolers from having sex?

We have whole government programs dedicated to it.

I think it's called "abstinence only education".

Amadan · May 19, 2013

kuwisdelu said:
So you think it makes perfect sense that it's all fine and legal for them to have been having sex at first, until the earth rotates another 360º, and suddenly it's illegal and it's wrong until the earth reaches a point in its orbit such that its number of total revolutions since the younger girl's birth is evenly divisible by 16?

To the same degree that you cannot drive, or sign a legal contract, or join the military, or become President of the United States, the day before the earth rotates another 360º and you can, yes.

I also disagree that bigotry played no part here.

No one has said bigotry played no part here. It probably did.

The family probably wouldn't have reported it and pressed charges at all if it weren't a lesbian relationship. If the families were both okay with it, probably the law would never have gotten involved.

That is entirely possible. Nonetheless, 18-year-old boys having sex with 15-year-old girls do get prosecuted.

It's even rarer for 18-year-old girls having sex with 15-year-old boys to be prosecuted, but they still can be.

So obviously, double standards and bigotry affect which cases the law gets involved in. But that alone isn't a strong enough argument that this particular case should be dropped.

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