Scientific American Article about Homophobia

This is great. I can definitely see the truth in this, but I can also imagine just how freaked out some people would be who are anti-gay to read this. lol

But wouldn't it be awesome if the day comes when someone who bullies a gay person is countered with, "What's your problem, are you gay, too?"

That does not work. It only inflames the situation.

I don't really put much stock in the article. It raises some interesting questions, but at the same time I know a lot of straight guys who simply don't like gays yet are not 'latent' in any way, shape, or form. They're not gay-bashers; they simply don't like the idea of homosexuality period end stop.

To be sure, there probably are some men who profess to despise gays and who have also hidden their homosexuality--there was a preacher whose name I don't recall who was outed as well as a Congressman I believe--don't know the exact numbers--but my very unscientific guess is that those men who don't like homosexuals simply don't like them either due to being brought up in a household--not necessarily an authoritarian one--where the idea of homosexuality was considered "wrong" or "sinful" or "bad" or any other adjective you can think of.

As always, the message of tolerance and openness is one that should be pushed. But I find this article not all that scientific. JMO...

J.S.F. said:

I don't really put much stock in the article. It raises some interesting questions, but at the same time I know a lot of straight guys who simply don't like gays yet are not 'latent' in any way, shape, or form. They're not gay-bashers; they simply don't like the idea of homosexuality period end stop.

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There's a difference between the "rank and file" and the "leadership," between people who simply happen to think homosexuality is wrong and people who invest a lot of emotional energy in it. I suspect the latter category contains a higher percentage (though not 100%) of closeted people than the former. For one thing, I suspect people who start out in the rank and file but recognize those urges in themselves are inspired to put a lot of emotional energy into it.

BenPanced said:

That does not work. It only inflames the situation.

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Seriously, listen to Ben.

It doesn't work. Really. It never has.

calieber said:

There's a difference between the "rank and file" and the "leadership," between people who simply happen to think homosexuality is wrong and people who invest a lot of emotional energy in it. I suspect the latter category contains a higher percentage (though not 100%) of closeted people than the former. For one thing, I suspect people who start out in the rank and file but recognize those urges in themselves are inspired to put a lot of emotional energy into it.

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That's a fair enough comment. However, suspecting the latter category (those who invest a lot of emotional energy in it, as you wrote) really doesn't give a good indication if those people are truly closeted or simply dislike the difference in sexual orientation. (To be fair, I'm not even sure I'm correct in my assumptions. I'm just going on people I've known over the years and my own observations).

I don't suppose a study will ever be done on who is right or wrong in this, and in the long run it doesn't really matter. What does matter is a measure of understanding and acceptance, and that will take time. It shouldn't, but it will. Just my opinion on all this.

BenPanced said:

That does not work. It only inflames the situation.

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It also doesn't challenge the underlying idea that gay = bad.

I think it's fairly plausible to speculate that latent homosexuality is a big factor for the most zealous homophobes. All these fears that society will effectively break down when gay marriage is legalized since obviously no man could ever be bothered to impregnate a woman again once it becomes properly normalized to sleep with other men instead don't strike me like something a heterosexual would come up with.

But of course it's not the only factor.

Another, probably equally big factor, is misogyny. Very often homophobia is a man's fear that another man might treat him like he treats women. And he is angry at the men who allow others to treat them that way, because they prove there's nothing intrinsic about having a penis that prevents you from being treated that way.

Now that's interesting because the two most homophobic men I've known were both misogynistic. Very, in one case.

I have nothing interesting to add--but I did want to drop off this link: http://gayhomophobe.com/

sohalt said:

Another, probably equally big factor, is misogyny. Very often homophobia is a man's fear that another man might treat him like he treats women. And he is angry at the men who allow others to treat them that way, because they prove there's nothing intrinsic about having a penis that prevents you from being treated that way.

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I think this is a bigger factor than the 'secret gay' thing. Closeted homophobes get a lot of press, especially when they're public leaders, but I'm not sure it could be called common.

On the other hand, telling a man he has the qualities of a woman is still seen as a reliable insult. This includes sexual acts traditionally performed by women on men. Lower that barrier between the genders sexes, and suddenly hell breaks loose.

I think the biggest problem is people who are genuinely trying to be good people, who just believe what they have been told by religious leaders or whoever. I saw something recently that really breaks it down nicely: the stereotype all boils down to the myth that only straight people fall in love. Gay people just have sex. People truly believe this, and somehow really think it's appropriate to include homosexuality with bestiality and pedophilia. It's just sad.

Roxxsmom said:

I'd say that negative attitudes about women and a belief in traditional gender roles (and the belief that 1. gay men are effeminate, and 2. that it's bad for men to be effeminate). Plus there's that possible fear some men may have that gay men will treat them the way they themselves treat women (aka like objects).

The rigid gender role thing bears more investigation as a cause for at least some instances, I think.

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I agree that this is a major factor.

I think this also ties into fear of not having sexual control, or not having one's desires catered to.

I think it plays into homophobia against gay women, as well, particularly when it's perpetuated by straight men. Homophobia against lesbians often seems based on the view of women as sex objects. Lesbians in porn are "good" because they're providing titillation, but I think real lesbians are often seen as a threat because they don't appreciate or accept advances from men--and I think a lot of homophobic and sexist men are threatened by sexual expression that doesn't directly benefit them or isn't in their control.

Some of the reactions when the Dragon Age games included the possibility of allowing a male character to have a relationship with another man really made an impression on me. The basic tone of the outcry was that the games should cater to straight men by allowing them to only see romantic or sexual content that they can relate to or find titillating.

I think that's a common attitude among homophobic and sexist straight men--the idea that sexuality is for them.

(Of course, there is homophobia in other demographics as well. But I think misogyny can play a large role in general.)

calieber said:

There's a difference between the "rank and file" and the "leadership," between people who simply happen to think homosexuality is wrong and people who invest a lot of emotional energy in it. I suspect the latter category contains a higher percentage (though not 100%) of closeted people than the former. For one thing, I suspect people who start out in the rank and file but recognize those urges in themselves are inspired to put a lot of emotional energy into it.

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I tend to agree. When someone is extremely invested in an issue, sometimes there's a reason. Also, some of the strongest tirades against homosexuality that I've seen have been extremely focused on sex. I don't think that always suggests that the person is gay, but it does suggest a fixation on sex, and maybe gay sex in particular.

Coming out for me meant finding out a lot of guys around my age thought I was just begging to be converted/have random sex/have a threesome. It probably didn't help that I was rarely sober for a while, and neither was anyone else I associated with.

But many straight young men I knew back then liked to just go from being my friend I was hanging out with to literally pulling their junk out their pants in front of me. Would they have done that to a straight girl? If so, would it have worked? And it happened to me multiple times! What's the freaking deal!

I now have a wife and a 2 year old and just rarely go anywhere except work, home, and with family and my one closest friend, so this hasn't happened in a while now.

And to Ben and Medievalist, I am sure that it really wouldn't work to say someting to a bully like that, I guess I was just wishing for something like that to work! Or anything. I am mad about bullies in general right now. My niece is only 7 and already dealing with being teased by the "popular" girl and has come to me for advice and the sad thing is I don't really know what to tell her.

Medievalist said:

Seriously, listen to Ben.

It doesn't work. Really. It never has.

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The following is nonconfrontational, and may be helpful. Make changes so the title "How to talk to a homophobe" fits:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/16.htm

I realize I have a wretchedly literal mind, but I do think there's a distinction to be made between homophobia—unreasoning, uncontrollable fear of homosexuality to the point that it makes normal life activities like riding a bus, eating in a restaurant or taking an elevator difficult if not impossible—and ordinary run-of-the-mill bigotry and prejudice.

Medievalist said:

I realize I have a wretchedly literal mind, but I do think there's a distinction to be made between homophobia—unreasoning, uncontrollable fear of homosexuality to the point that it makes normal life activities like riding a bus, eating in a restaurant or taking an elevator difficult if not impossible—and ordinary run-of-the-mill bigotry and prejudice.

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I'm not sure there's a clear line between the two. I think people can possibly move between mild prejudice to violent hatred and back again for fickle reasons (peer pressure, for example). I also don't think the two can be distinguished by root cause of the discomfort.

I can see where Medievalist is talking about the clear line around the literal definition of the word, whereas its most usual usage abuses the heck out of that meaning.

Equivalently, we could discuss gynophobia and negrophobia.

I didn't catch the literal meaning part (it's obvious in the post, I just misread it). But I don't see how these three phobias can be unrelated to prejudice. I wonder if, at least in many cases, they're similar in the attitude of 'all of X are the same'.

In any case, I don't think literal homophobia is the main issue in the OP's article. As you mentioned, the word homophobia has been hijacked to mean 'disliking/hating/fearing homosexuals'.

Satsya said:

I'm not sure there's a clear line between the two. I think people can possibly move between mild prejudice to violent hatred and back again for fickle reasons (peer pressure, for example). I also don't think the two can be distinguished by root cause of the discomfort.

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One, homophobia is a rare psychological disorder with a formal diagnosis. The other is not.

Homophobia like arachnophobia or agoraphobia is a genuine disorder. People suffering from genuine homophobia would be too terrified to function in ordinary ways. You know more see homophobes protesting at a rally than you see ailurophobes protesting at cat shows; they can't out of sheer terror.

Bigots are just people who hate.

Medievalist said:

One, homophobia is a rare psychological disorder with a formal diagnosis. The other is not.

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I know. I didn't catch that you were using the literal definition. I misread your post (for one, kept reading 'literal' as 'liberal'). Sorry. I'm making stupid mistakes as I'm not 100% lately.

I feel like I'm wading into unfamiliar territory, so I can't argue, but I do have concerns about a possible connection between the medical condition and bigotry -- in some cases. In other cases there may really be no connection. But to repeat, I don't think literal homophobia is the issue at hand -- it's just the poor word getting misused over and over.