Dragons?

ryanthehansen · May 13, 2013

Dragons.

We fantasy readers/writers love them. Or maybe we hate them? In an interview with Patrick Rothfuss last year, he mentions that dragons are one of the top 5 cliches the fantasy author should avoid.

Nothing against Rothfuss (I enjoy the Kingkiller Chronicle so far), but this kind of threw me a little and I stewed about it a little before moving on to other things. Now that I've got a new WIP involving dragons, it popped up in my head again. I'm curious to hear what the general feeling is on dragons in the fantasy world.

What do you love about dragons in fantasy? What do you hate? Is there anything that you personally would never want to see again when it comes to dragons? And on the flip side, what do you think dragons are lacking?

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to write my novel how I want--and I know terrible storytelling can ruin anything--but I was just a little curious as to how you guys felt on the subject.

(Cuz you guys matter! :Hug2:

)

Kerosene · May 13, 2013

I'll agree that dragons are overused, but not cliche.

The main problem that I see, well with any mythical creature in literature, is that typically people don't bring anything new to the table with them. In both giving dragons a new life in the world, and bringing me the author's form of a dragon.

But, I don't like any creatures in my fantasy, or dark caves/dungeons. :e2shrug:

Brightdreamer · May 13, 2013

To heck with Saint George - dragons will never die!

I love 'em, myself, and use them often. I like dragons best when they're distinct species or beings, not just a generic monster or a scaled human. I don't like them when they're too sappy.

Chasing the Horizon · May 13, 2013

I love dragons too, though my favorite portrayals show them as the mighty, furious, almost unkillable beasts of earlier legend, rather than the 'dragons are our special friends' portrayal that's common today. I also like stories that pit good dragons against evil ones, with little involvement from humans.

Things I'm really tired of:
Dragons bonding forever with their super-special riders. Anne McCaffrey did it first, she did it best, and everyone else needs to stop doing it.

The Last Dragon. Though I'm sick of books focusing on The Last Anything, so maybe it shouldn't count.

Fully sentient, intelligent dragons who serve people with no apparent benefit to themselves. If you want to use dragons as super-cool horses, don't make them more intelligent than the average farm animal.

Xagarath · May 13, 2013

There are dozens, even hundreds, of other mythological beasts with wings and claws and impressive reputations. Why not use one of them instead?

blacbird · May 13, 2013

Dragons, vampires, zombies . . . I sooooooo yearn for someone to come along with an original monster.

caw

Lhipenwhe · May 13, 2013

I'm pretty neutral on dragons; I don't use them, but as long as the author avoids the cliches/plot holes/logical problems (like intelligent dragons being reduced to pack mules), then I won't have a problem with them. I wouldn't mind reading about a new interpretation of them, but a well-written "classical" dragon will get my attention every time.

Chasing the Horizon · May 14, 2013

Xagarath said:
There are dozens, even hundreds, of other mythological beasts with wings and claws and impressive reputations. Why not use one of them instead?

I don't think there's anything else with quite the reputation and instant recognition of a dragon. Of course, sometimes it's fun to be obscure. But sometimes you just want to say the word and have everyone know what you mean, or to bring fairytales to life.

I have a scene where my characters fight winged manticores, which for all technical purposes is very similar to fighting dragons. Except it's just not like fighting dragons at all, because dragons have a special place in mythology. They've been romanticized more than any other creature and that makes them different. Not necessarily superior, depending on what atmosphere you want to create, but I think it's wrong to say they're interchangeable with anything else.

blacbird said:
I sooooooo yearn for someone to come along with an original monster.

Original monsters are a lot of fun, both to read and to write. But if a dragon is what the OP's story needs, an original creature won't take its place anymore than an obscure mythological creature would.

Buffysquirrel · May 14, 2013

If Rothfuss doesn't want to read or write about dragons, that's fine.

I say, bring the dragons on.

But, dear God, please, no more Mary-Sue dragons a la Temeraire.

Xagarath · May 14, 2013

Chasing the Horizon said:
I have a scene where my characters fight winged manticores, which for all technical purposes is very similar to fighting dragons.

Hey, I used a manticore as well. We should start a club!
I think my other problem with dragons is that they're so tied up in the name, and I don't like naming magical creatures. It diminishes the mystery for me if you introduce a label into your story, as opposed to describing something strange and unexpected.

KateJJ · May 14, 2013

I've got a plot in the planning stage with evil dragons using mind control to keep humanity in a nice pseudo-medieval state. It's not a particularly original take on dragons or anything but it's been a while since I've seen non-sparkly dragons in a book so maybe it'll work.

Lissibith · May 14, 2013

I don't.. mind? dragons? But I will admit that when I see them in a book, I prepare for them to be Just Like Every Other Dragon. And I'm usually right. It's disappointing how often the appearance of massive, fearsome, magical beasts invokes a sigh instead of a cheer...

Slicklines · May 14, 2013

I was fortunate enough to be involved in a discussion with a successful fantasy editor about eight months or so ago when the subject of vampires came up. Well, this editor went straight into a rant about how the vampire craze couldn't end soon enough. Some pretty vitriolic stuff. But of course many people writing vampire stories are doing quite well. So the question is: Is this editor's opinion really worth anything? I guess each writer must determine that for him or herself. As for dragons: are they as overused as vampires? Yeah, I suspect so. But I'm not certain this really means anything. I'd bet the farm (if I had one...) that there are still some great dragon ideas out there. If you can bring your dragons to life, why kill them off on the advice of someone who has never met them?

Little Anonymous Me · May 14, 2013

This will echo what many others have already said, but I like dragons well done (that sounds like a meal). I prefer them to be a bit more bestial, more like an intelligent wild enemy that might make you it prey than something out of, oh, I don't know, My Little Pony? These guys were supposed to be raw forces of nature, not overgrown pet lizards. :Soapbox:

*climbs off soapbox*

sunandshadow · May 14, 2013

Little Anonymous Me said:
This will echo what many others have already said, but I like dragons well done (that sounds like a meal). I prefer them to be a bit more bestial, more like an intelligent wild enemy that might make you it prey than something out of, oh, I don't know, My Little Pony? These guys were supposed to be raw forces of nature, not overgrown pet lizards. *climbs off soapbox*

And then to me, dragons done well means that they are people, not animals and absolutely not magical artifacts or foozles. :Shrug:

So, there is definitely demand for more dragon-related fiction, but it's divided about what that should be like.

Little Anonymous Me · May 14, 2013

sunandshadow said:
And then to me, dragons done well means that they are people, not animals and absolutely not magical artifacts or foozles. So, there is definitely demand for more dragon-related fiction, but it's divided about what that should be like.

Lol!

Potato/pah-ta-to moment? I tend to like my reading material a bit darker than the average person, so that's probably why I prefer my dragons more likely to eat their master than help them. :tongue

MattW · May 14, 2013

Buffysquirrel said:
If Rothfuss doesn't want to read or write about dragons, that's fine.

I think he did, though. Kvothe has to defeat everything, so why not a dragon too? Sure, it didn't look like a traditional dragon much, but it was a big firebreathing lizard IIRC.

Do as I say, not as I do...

slhuang · May 14, 2013

::shrug:: I'm with most other posters here; if it's written well I don't care that a billion other people have done it. I think the perceived problem with dragons is that they often show up in bad writing (because of their sheer ubiquity), not that dragons themselves make the writing bad.

And you know what I would eat up with a spoon? More Eastern dragons. Asian mythologies are full of dragons, and most English-language fantasy hasn't touched those stories, let alone overused or exhausted them.

rwm4768 · May 14, 2013

I have no problem with dragons if they're done well. I tend to prefer them as monsters rather than friends. I read one Anne McCaffrey book, and it just didn't work for me.

While I agree with some of Rothfuss's points in that interview, you also have to realize that his opinion is just one opinion. I'll admit that I have a soft spot for a lot of the so-called fantasy cliches. Elves and dwarves don't bother me as long as I can relate to them as characters. Dragons are cool as long as they're not overused. If your characters fight twenty dragons over the course of the novel, that might be too much.

I've noticed that there are different categories of fantasy readers. Some people never outgrow the traditional tropes. Others like the tropes but have to see something fresh done with them. Then there's a group of people who don't want to see any of the tropes. I personally like a lot of the tropes but sometimes want to see something fresh.

Buffysquirrel · May 14, 2013

MattW said:
I think he did, though. Kvothe has to defeat everything, so why not a dragon too? Sure, it didn't look like a traditional dragon much, but it was a big firebreathing lizard IIRC.

Do as I say, not as I do...

Eh, not sure I've ever read anything of his. But since I burnt my GR account I've no longer any idea what I've read and what I haven't.

rwm4768 said:
Dragons are cool as long as they're not overused.

No, no, no, dragons are *hot*!

CrastersBabies · May 14, 2013

I love dragons! Cannot have enough. I don't use them in my world (nor do I use elves, dwarves or such). But, they seem pretty cool. I love reading them.

Teinz · May 14, 2013

Buffysquirrel said:
But, dear God, please, no more Mary-Sue dragons a la Temeraire.

A friend of mine was quite smitten.

I also read those books, btw.

Anyway, I like dragons as bad guys. Can't wait to see what Smaug does in the next movie.

Maxx · May 14, 2013

Lissibith said:
I don't.. mind? dragons? But I will admit that when I see them in a book, I prepare for them to be Just Like Every Other Dragon. And I'm usually right. It's disappointing how often the appearance of massive, fearsome, magical beasts invokes a sigh instead of a cheer...

I had a wyvern turn up in a story recently. His job was to keep the MC from getting injured and he did a surly but competent job before being blown up. I wasn't sad to see him go. But I also have some Zombies and Dwarves and Elves (Zombies -- blown up, Dwarves and Elves -- mentioned, but actually on hand so to speak). There's a lot of comic effect if nothing else left in all the cliched topoi of fantasy and even more with the werwolves and vampires and whatnot of UF. Dragons though -- not all that funny.

jjdebenedictis · May 14, 2013

blacbird said:
Dragons, vampires, zombies . . . I sooooooo yearn for someone to come along with an original monster.

Oh, there are lots.

What there aren't many of, however, is original monsters that tap into the hindbrain of readers in such a powerful way as to become iconic.

Jess Haines · May 14, 2013

I love dragons. I love them fiercely.

As long as they are written well.

Dragons?

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