The reader being attracted to the characters

Diomedes · May 6, 2013

Ok, so I've put my story up for critique on another website. It's a cross between HF and romance. The setting in Dublin 1912 of a race to stage a play between Ireland and Britain is real. There are historical figures like Yeats and Maud Gonne. This side to the story has seemed to attract men to read it.

But I wrote it with a female audience in mind which is the fictional part about the protagonist - an actress who falls in love with a man who uses her and then the man who really loves her; plus all the relationships between her and other figures in the play. And of course the fictional side is based on reality - certain people and events are close to people I've known and what they've experienced. This aspect, I'm told, draws women readers.

But the difference between the reactions of male and female writers is striking. My protagonist is weak and insecure, yet inside has a suppressed desire to break out from her shy self. It's important for the story, but male readers say they prefer women more confident, self-assured and with more mettle. I suddenly realised they're actually saying they're not finding her sexy. Women readers haven't raised this - in fact they sympathise with her, which I guess is because they're not supposed to be attracted to her.

Is this a regular problem in the romance genre and why it is stereotyped as female reading? Or is it a problem that people have in having a female protagonist - that it can push men away from reading? And should I consider the gender of an agent before subbing as a result?

Or am I alone in this experience?

Violeta · May 6, 2013

Diomedes said:
It's important for the story, but male readers say they prefer women more confident, self-assured and with more mettle. I suddenly realised they're actually saying they're not finding her sexy. Women readers haven't raised this - in fact they sympathise with her, which I guess is because they're not supposed to be attracted to her.

I'm not sure how to answer your questions, but this is an interesting topic. Makes you wonder...

Lyra Jean · May 6, 2013

Can you edit it to make her a little bit of a stronger person. Or maybe show that is capable of being a strong person but just not around particular characters.

I read a historical YA where the female love interest moved to Alaska to be with her husband (not the love interest). She was strong and capable when not around him. But because it wasn't real love she was just crushing on him (for lack of a better term) she just listened to his every command no matter how silly. Like because she was red head she was only supposed to wear green not any other color even though her favorite color was blue. She finally had the courage to stand up to him and was able to find out that her marriage to him was a sham because he had married a native in order to accrue more land. He tried to tell her that it wasn't a real marriage but she found her backbone by this point.

If it's not possible I say pick an audience and cater to them whether it be male or female.

Rhoda Nightingale · May 6, 2013

Not an expert in romance on the whole, but I do agree confidence is sexy (speaking as someone attracted to all genders, for what it's worth). That said, who's your target audience? The women, or the men, or both? Do you need the FMC to be attractive, or do you need her to be someone your readership relates to? Answering that might help you figure out where to push the character, if indeed you need to push her anywhere.

gcsalamon · May 6, 2013

I believe you'll find that, statically, the majority of your audience, whether it is male or female, prefer strong main characters - again whether we're talking about the male or female character. And this seems to be a major selling point when it comes to the female leads, and the female audience.

I have heard many, many women in various book clubs spout off about weak female lead characters. On the whole, they don't like it when the female comes off as weak and helpless. take a look at some agent bios and what they are looking for as an example, and you will note that they predominantly put it right out there: we want strong female characters.

Lyra Jean · May 7, 2013

How not to write a female lead. A Respectable Trade by Philippa Gregory

It was the first book I ever read written by her. It will probably be my last. The FMC was that bad.

sunandshadow · May 7, 2013

I do think that there is, and should be, a different standard for a female main character intended for female readers to identify with, vs. a female character intended for those readers who are attracted to females to be attracted to. For one thing, if a book has a single viewpoint character, that character's primary purpose should be reader identification; the role of main character is structurally opposed to the role of love interest and that of rival, both of whom are available to serve the purpose of being attractive to the reader.

From a more personal angle, the female characters I identify most with are often those male readers don't find appealing and may complain about because they don't understand the purpose and value that character has for me and other female readers.

mirandashell · May 7, 2013

I think you have to really consider who your audience is meant to be. Yes, men and women like strong female leads but the definition of strong can be very different.

WhatTheWhat · May 7, 2013

Diomedes said:
Is this a regular problem in the romance genre and why it is stereotyped as female reading? Or is it a problem that people have in having a female protagonist - that it can push men away from reading? And should I consider the gender of an agent before subbing as a result?

Or am I alone in this experience?

No, you're not alone!

My debut novel (publishing next week) has an insecure MC, and I caught a lot of flak from prospective agents, contest judges, etc., who insisted I had to change my MC's personality--practically to the point of making her a friggin' lion tamer who's a vampire hunter in her spare time or something.

But that wasn't my MC. That wasn't her story. The whole point of the book is that my MC grows and matures--becomes stronger over the course of the story. I never changed her, and I found an agent and a publisher who understood her and loved her, warts and all, as much as I did (and still do). So no regrets here.

Does your female character grow? Does she become more confident, more comfortable in her own skin? Is there an arc to her of any sort? And what are her good qualities? Those are the things you need to be looking at. Because sure, people don't enjoy signing on when they have to climb into the skin of someone they don't admire--it's a tougher sell--but if there's some change in her, and/or some recognition of her good qualities that shows she's valued by the hero or other people who are important in her life, readers are more inclined to sympathize in the long run.

Another question--and this is my theater geek side speaking--how does she do on the stage, if she's insecure by nature? Also--LOVE the concept of Yeats et al. as characters. I would so read that!

Diomedes · May 8, 2013

WhatTheWhat said:
No, you're not alone! My debut novel (publishing next week) has an insecure MC, and I caught a lot of flak from prospective agents, contest judges, etc., who insisted I had to change my MC's personality--practically to the point of making her a friggin' lion tamer who's a vampire hunter in her spare time or something.

But that wasn't my MC. That wasn't her story. The whole point of the book is that my MC grows and matures--becomes stronger over the course of the story. I never changed her, and I found an agent and a publisher who understood her and loved her, warts and all, as much as I did (and still do). So no regrets here.

Does your female character grow? Does she become more confident, more comfortable in her own skin? Is there an arc to her of any sort? And what are her good qualities? Those are the things you need to be looking at. Because sure, people don't enjoy signing on when they have to climb into the skin of someone they don't admire--it's a tougher sell--but if there's some change in her, and/or some recognition of her good qualities that shows she's valued by the hero or other people who are important in her life, readers are more inclined to sympathize in the long run.

Another question--and this is my theater geek side speaking--how does she do on the stage, if she's insecure by nature? Also--LOVE the concept of Yeats et al. as characters. I would so read that!

Thanks for the message. Well, I don't know if I should because the information is released rather slowly for the reader and explaining it all will ruin the story (plus I would love a reader so don't read past this paragraph is you're willing!), but yes there is an arc to her development.

The thing is that she grew up in a very privileged background and was an only child - proper middle-class Victorian, went to a private girl's school, lived in posh part of Dublin. She had a strong relationship with her mother who pretty much wrapped her in cotton wool. Had no proper experience of men. Her parents had a stormy relatiosnhip due to her father's mistress and her mother died. Father runs off with mistress to England and she's left completely alone. Abandoned and has to some how find a living, so she has to move away to a poor tenement building. The girls in that building have to prostitute themselves if they didn't manage to earn the month's rent and the shock of this behaviour has affected.

She took a job at the theatre because it was the only thing she could do - sing and dance from school. We learn Yeats took her on out of pity, giving her a small part in the Chorus which only needed dancing.

But the thing is, she's very timid and very shy from her mothered background yet manages to cope against it all and doesn't realise that. And at the theatre, it works out that the lines for the play need to be translated and the young scholar employed chooses her. In the lines of Oedipus (and the themes of the play and her life begin to intertwine) she finds strength - not only that, but begins to recognise the strength within her.

At the same time, she meets a man - very charming, earns a lot of money, confident, strong, etc. And the way he treats her reminds her of how her mother loved her. So she leans on him, thinking he's her strength when he's only using her for sex (and as you can imagine for her, the first time and subsequent times were a bit of a shock!). He essentially rapes her the first time, and yet we the reader can see her cope on her own with it - see the strength inside her.

But the reversal comes for her, as it did for Oedipus, that the scholar loves her - and he wrote the lines for her, seeing the strength within her. And she finally can, becoming Oedipus, get rid of the man and the dependence on her mother.

I'm sure all that sounds convoluted and messy, but that's essentially the arc in her development and it's much cleaner to get these things across in 80k words than the couple of hundred here!

Congratulations on publishing by the way!

Alpha Echo · May 8, 2013

mirandashell said:
I think you have to really consider who your audience is meant to be. Yes, men and women like strong female leads but the definition of strong can be very different.

This.

For example - I am a woman. I hate reading about weak women. Though I want the MC to be strong, I also love it when the man comes along and sweeps her off her feet. That doesn't make her weak, it makes her human.

As long as the male MC isn't a jerk. I hate the macho ones. I want a strong male lead also, but not one who thinks he's the end-all be-all only-one for the FMC.

Don't know if that helps...

oldhousejunkie · May 21, 2013

Even as a female, I like female MCs to be strong. I get annoyed by flighty ones with no substance. But as another commenter said, I think it's OK to develop the character over time. I've been experimenting with female MCs that are either equal parts soft and hard or they develop over time from being somewhat passive about their life decisions to growing a backbone and standing up for their happiness. I think it's important to strike a balance since the typical strong heroine has gradually grown into a cliché. You can't be strong all of the time, either in real life or on the page of a book.

Lyra Jean · May 21, 2013

I was reading an NF book about women who traveled west with their families.

There was one woman when some sort of problem came up she dealt with the problem whether it was a broken axle or dealing with Indians. Then when the problem was taken care of she would then act like what a typical woman was supposed to behave. Which was apparently freak out and faint or be totally incompetent in some other way.

Ann_Mayburn · May 21, 2013

I was reading an NF book about women who traveled west with their families.

There was one woman when some sort of problem came up she dealt with the problem whether it was a broken axle or dealing with Indians. Then when the problem was taken care of she would then act like what a typical woman was supposed to behave. Which was apparently freak out and faint or be totally incompetent in some other way.

Smart woman sitting on her wagon headed west- Well, I made a peace treaty with the Indians, saved the oxen from a sink hole, performed an appendectomy with a spoon, and whittled a new leg for old Smitty one leg who lost his old prosthetic limb to a bear.

--Menfolk glaring at her for doing 'their' job. Start rumbling about burning witches--

Smart woman watching the men gather kindling- Oh dear! I done burned my biscuits! And I can't get this jar open! And oh dear me there is a spider! Won't someone kill it!

Melinda Moore · May 24, 2013

I think you'll find an audience for weaker or shy women...there are many published examples out there. I think the key is to gain sympathy for her plight right from the start. Put her in a situation that people can say "Oh I understand that. It would be so hard to be her. I hope she overcomes it."

Lurosa · May 24, 2013

Diomedes said:
Or am I alone in this experience?

Definitely not! My character is based on a real life person. She is frail in the sense of being abused (not physically), but will bloom as the story progresses. I had some negative feedback calling her pathetic.
You know what? She is your character, it is your story, write it the way you want. You will probably find that as the story unfolds she will have a far bigger following than most. Your upside is that you know her and this will make her more powerful.

If we had to listen to every person that says we can't do it, we would never have Star Wars.

little_e · May 24, 2013

There's a difference, I think, between a character who grows and changes over the course of a story, and one who makes the reader bang their head on the book--even if they later grow and change. I like to think I've accomplished the former, but I KNOW I've written the latter.

I've not read your story, so I can't comment on how you handle your MC's progression. But I'll note that even a weak character needs some signs of strength in them, some spark that carries us along and lets us know that things will change. If they make a bunch of stupid decisions or sit around crying (as some of my MCs have been guilty of doing,) readers are likely to get frustrated and walk away--even if real people would totally react that way.

I think this is true even independent of attractiveness to the reader.

Good luck.

Ann_Mayburn · May 24, 2013

I just wanted to add that you can always give her a 'quiet' strength. Meaning while she isn't all up in your face, she has a core of steel that nothing can break.

Lil · May 24, 2013

Do you like everyone you know?
Do you like all the men you know? All the women?
Of course not.
In the same way, not all the potential readers out there are going to like all of your characters. Try to make them as fully rounded and recognizably human as you can, and don't worry about pleasing everyone. You can't.

Menyanthana · Jun 2, 2013

I can't identify with characters who are too strong. They might be attractive, but I feel weak and worthless when I compare myself to them. Which, I guess, men don't do, so they like such characters.

I actually do like "weak" female characters, if their weakness is presented as a problem, not as a female virtue.

"Weak" characters who want to be strong are perfect. They don't even have to become so in one novel - just as long as they are intelligent enough to be aware of the problem.

LisaG · Jun 6, 2013

Personally, I like characters who have flaws, especially when they have a maturing or learning experience.

But, I have been reading and posting stories on a writing community where readers can comment on each chapter. In my experience, readers will get angry at a female MC who puts up with not being treated right by her male MC, who cries a lot, etc.

In working with authors of these types of characters, like yours who grow and mature through the book, or whose characters have been through some experience that made them that way, my advice had been to drop a few hints either that it hadn't always been that way or she wants to be stronger. Not in a way that will ruin your story, but for instance accompany her tears with few short words as an internal dialogue that explain what you want to get across.

(The prick of tears always angered her. Impatiently she wiped at her eyes remembering a time when she had rarely cried.) This doesn't give away your story, but lets your readers know you are aware of this personality trait.

Just my 2cents. Hope it helps

The reader being attracted to the characters

Diomedes

Violeta

All I Ever Wanted Was The World

Lyra Jean

Two years old now.

Rhoda Nightingale

Vampire Junkie

gcsalamon

Gina

Lyra Jean

Two years old now.

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

mirandashell

WhatTheWhat

PRing my little heart out

Diomedes

Alpha Echo

I should be writing.

oldhousejunkie

Lyra Jean

Two years old now.

Ann_Mayburn

Smutty McTitters

Melinda Moore

Lurosa

Through the eyes of a child

little_e

Trust: that most precious coin.

Ann_Mayburn

Smutty McTitters

Lil

Menyanthana

Moonflower

LisaG