Does It Get Better?

Erin Latimer · May 4, 2013

I'm sorry if this has been addressed. I saw similar threads but not the same question. I apologize if this is not in the right category, wasn't sure where to put it.

I'm on a reading/writing website that allows readers to leave comments for you. Most of them are nice, but occasionally I'll get a bad one. I was all proud of myself because I thought I was developing thicker skin against the negative stuff. Some are thoughtful critiques and I can use that, but...

Sometimes it's just nasty. Apparently I'm not as tough as I thought. My question is, does it get better? Will there ever be a time that a negative comment/review doesn't hurt like heck? I don't WANT to dwell on it for hours. It's ridiculous!

And I don't even really have any "real" reviews yet (like on goodreads). I have a feeling I'll be hiding under the bed when (and if) those start cropping up!

What do you tell yourself in order to get over it? Do you eventually give up caring? I can tell myself "suck it up, princess" all I want, but it isn't working so far.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

JoBird · May 4, 2013

I think all you can do is put it in perspective. There are always going to be negative comments. It just comes with the territory. Of course it hurts, but if you have more positive comments than negative, consider that a plus.

Try to find whatever constructive you can in the negative comments. In my opinion, that helps. It helps to understand where the other person was coming from. And it could help you improve.

But at the end of the day, you do have to be able to shake it off. It's not healthy to let your confidence be dictated by the roller coaster comments of strangers on the internet. In my opinion.

chloecomplains · May 4, 2013

Sometimes, it IS just nasty. People say horrible things, especially now, with so many anonymous ways to say those horrible things. I agree with JoBird, try to find something constructive in the comments. Even if you can't--and sometimes, there really isn't anything useful--remember it's one person's opinion. I'm sure you've read things that other people adored and you thought was awful. I personally have a strong distaste for Stephen King's writing style. Obviously, my opinion is in the minority, but if he posted something in a forum and I was the type of person who left negative reviews, I'd completely lambast it.

To answer your question, though, no. It doesn't get easier. It always hurts when you pour your heart into your project and someone tells you that you've wasted your time and theirs. But if you haven't already, you'll create a network of people who support you, not because they're your friends and family, but because they enjoy your work, and whose opinions you can trust because they've been honest about the best and worst of your writing. When a comment gets to you, you'll go to them and they'll tell you if the review was accurate (but harsh) or completely unfounded and missing the scope of the project.

DancingMaenid · May 4, 2013

Some people are just nasty, and few people find it pleasant to be on the receiving end of that. I think the best thing you can do in those instances is to recognize that those comments generally say more about the person who leaves them than anything else. It can be really tempting to get sucked into wondering why people who leave rude comments didn't like your stuff, but a lot of times there's no way of knowing. So if you're going to focus on people's input, you're probably better off paying attention to the general tone of the feedback you get, and seeking out advice from people you trust or who at least seem reasonable.

In any case, you can't write for everyone, and no matter what you do, there will always be people who didn't care for it. People who leave nasty comments are perhaps not the people to be most concerned about.

southbel · May 4, 2013

Maybe I'm just less kind but I see that you're repped, right? What do you think the chances of those people leaving negative comments have even been able to get an agent? I'm guessing pretty low. I would tell them to suck it.

milkweed · May 4, 2013

Does It Get Better?

anwser - no and it doesn't get any easier either.

Is it worth it?

yes!

remember a lot of the peeps leaving negative reviews, etc., are actually your competition... and they are trying to sway reviews... this I learned the hard way.

lolchemist · May 4, 2013

When you're sitting on a pile of money you earned from your book sales and you're cackling at tacky little comments left by idiots while eating popcorn and a Brazillian male model in a loincloth massages your feet, I promise you the bad comments won't hurt at all. Until then, learn all you can from them, try to pinpoint if anything you wrote caused the reader's anger and discard the rest. It could be worse, you could have ZERO readers!

JoBird · May 4, 2013

milkweed said:
remember a lot of the peeps leaving negative reviews, etc., are actually your competition... and they are trying to sway reviews... this I learned the hard way.

This sucks if it's true.

I don't think of success as a zero sum game. I think of someone else's success in my preferred genre as a good thing. That person's success means there's more opportunity all around.

An example: A Game of Thrones. Martin's success opens the door for more speculative authors. His success seems to widen the market, in my opinion. Not shrink it.

I honestly believe authors should be encouraging one another. On one another's side, for the benefit of all.

milkweed · May 4, 2013

lolchemist said:
It could be worse, you could have ZERO readers!

This^

milkweed · May 4, 2013

JoBird said:
I honestly believe authors should be encouraging one another. On one another's side, for the benefit of all.

It's rather cut throat in the "how-to" field but I actually agree with you... and this is the practice I embrace.

southbel · May 4, 2013

JoBird said:
This sucks if it's true.

I don't think of success as a zero sum game. I think of someone else's success in my preferred genre as a good thing. That person's success means there's more opportunity all around.

An example: A Game of Thrones. Martin's success opens the door for more speculative authors. His success seems to widen the market, in my opinion. Not shrink it.

I honestly believe authors should be encouraging one another. On one another's side, for the benefit of all.

That's how it should be, yes. But unfortunately, there are petty people in this world and I think they can't get beyond themselves to ever put anyone else first. It's sad really but if they are truly mean comments without merit (e.g. no real criticism, just a 'you suck' kind of thing), then they deserve our scorn.

Roxxsmom · May 5, 2013

People who are just nasty without saying what they don't like or how they think it can be improved can probably be safely dismissed. They're jerks and trolls who either lack social skills or who have serious issues they're working through (or not) by lashing out at others.

Reviews that contain potentially helpful or well-meant information, but are worded in a terse or less tactful way can be tough, especially if you don't know the person or they don't bother to comment on any of the positives. it can be pretty hard to sort through these, especially if they jump on something you didn't think was an issue (and might even be something you've gotten good feedback on). This is the kind that tends to make me wonder if I'm just completely clueless as a writer.

Then there are the people who state their opinions as facts, or worse yet, just have bad advice. I think getting a good grasp of the basics of craft can help with these sorts of comments, which may be well intentioned but are not terribly useful.

I wish I was in a place where I was confident enough about my writing and about what I am and should be trying to do that conflicting or downright tactless or unkind comments don't send me into a tailspin of self doubt. But I'd be lying. People say the skin thickens with time, and I think they're right. But we probably all develop those calluses at our own rates.

I think it's always important to remember that there will be people who don't like your writing, no matter who you are and how good you are. Even well loved and critically acclaimed writers get picked to pieces by some readers/reviewers. There is a guy who has a list of the 30 worst fantasy novels ever written on his blog, and while I don't like most of the books he lists, there are one or two on there that I do (and then his characterization of fans of such books as vapid or foolish stops being funny

)

And all of those books have sold reasonably well, some stupendously well. Indeed, he didn't review the 30 worst ever written. He reviewed the 30 worst bestselling fantasy books ever written in his opinion. I did wonder what it might feel like as an author (even a successful one) to see another author or editor's blog listing your book as one of the worst ever. Does it make for awkward elevator rides at cons?

Chris P · May 5, 2013

I haven't gotten many reviews yet, but I still get a little worked up when someone on SYW rips on me pretty hard. Or even when someone disagrees with something I've said.Does it get better? Yes and no. No in that it can still get to me. Yes in that I've learned ways to make use of it.

I try to look at how, for their perspective, they might be right. My critics have been my greatest teachers, after all. Sometimes I see what they're saying and make a change, but other times I see what they're saying but stick to my position anyway. Sometimes I can't see at all what they mean, and just assume they've missed the point somewhere along the way. I've missed the point plenty of times too, so I can give them the same consideration.

But the toughest thing for me to get over is the people-pleasing idea that everything everyone says is right, especially my critics. I don't have to find a middle ground where everyone agrees, and some criticism can just be plain wrong.

Putputt · May 5, 2013

For me, it does get better. Although, mind you, someone said something to me the other day about my query and it really stung me. When Mr. Putt came home, I yelled, "I'VE BEEN TROLLED" and ran up for a very long hug. Then we laughed about it.

I think you're allowed to be a little upset by trolls...but you can't dwell on it. And the last thing you wanna do is reply, because then they know they've got you and that's when the flame wars start.

As for reviews, the thing to do is probably just not read them, or read only the 4-and-5 star ones. That's what I'd do anyway. My betas are there to tell me what needs improving, and reviewers are there to tell me how awesome I am and how soft my hair is.

Clubmonstar · May 5, 2013

I haven't posted anything on here yet, but am hoping to have something ready soon.

I honestly think it's about how you feel about your work. I have some hang ups about my writing, so I want some feedback which either confirms or contrasts my feelings and I don't mind people being harsh if that's what my writing needs. It's all about balance though, so I'd expect people to point out positives too.

However, if you feel good about your writing and so do most other people, then a really cruel comment may just fly over your head and it could stick out like a sore thumb. It's just like Yelp or Amazon reviews. Cream off the best and the worst and the in between is probably truly accurate. Although those people don't always bother to review do they? On here it is slightly different though an a range of people do seem to feedback.

Erin Latimer · May 5, 2013

lolchemist said:
When you're sitting on a pile of money you earned from your book sales and you're cackling at tacky little comments left by idiots while eating popcorn and a Brazillian male model in a loincloth massages your feet, I promise you the bad comments won't hurt at all. Until then, learn all you can from them, try to pinpoint if anything you wrote caused the reader's anger and discard the rest. It could be worse, you could have ZERO readers!

You seriously just made my day. That made me laugh hard enough to snort my tea in a very unladylike fashion. I'm considering copy pasting your words and sticking them somewhere I can read if I get more nasty comments, if you don't mind your comment being immortalized?

Thank you everyone, I really really needed to hear everything you just said. I think I need to try to adjust my attitude about it, and not take it so personally and attempt to keep my emotions out of it. Hopefully someday down the road when I'm older and (hopefully) wiser about all of this, I can return the karma for some other newbie writer.

Thanks guys!

ellio · May 5, 2013

Sometimes I'll read a one star review on goodreads about a book that I would have given five stars. I'll discount it as different tastes and put my own opinion above theirs.

Do the same with your own work. Negative reviews that aren't beneficial or usefully critical are nothing more than irrelevant. Literally, they are irrelevant. They do not matter. Only take in and consider things that will help you improve your writing. If it doesn't, there is no reason for you to care or give their opinions any weight.

If you are proud and happy with your work then let that be so. You can't please everyone - it's impossible. So don't bother. I think when you get to the published stage it's fine to have rose-tinted glasses and only read the positive reviews.

J.S.F. · May 5, 2013

What everyone has said x100.

You can't please everyone, you will never please everyone, and if you think unicorns shoot rainbows out of their butts then you'd better think twice.

There's criticism with intent to help you improve and then there's just criticism. As an example, see my avi. I submitted Death Bytes to a few publishers about eight months ago, and the majority of them were kind enough to give criticism where it was needed--after rejecting it. I looked at their comments and realized that most of them were right, so I fixed the mistakes.

Now, one of the people who rejected me just savaged the living shit out of it. Apparently, this person rips into everything and everyone, and after reading his comments--he was kind enough to write me a rather lengthy critique--I realized he was right about some things and wrong about others. But even though he focused on every little detail in rather nasty, cutting prose, he made me think about things.

My book is out now and selling. Will it outdo Harry Potter? Doubtful, but I have made some sales and I'm pleased so far, and I owe it to my publisher as well as to myself to promote it the best way I can...because all the criticisms didn't sway me...they helped me for the most part and I'm grateful for that.

There are, though, some individuals who just like to criticize without offering a reason why. Why do they do this? Some of them like to tear others down to their level, and some are just plain asswipes. You have to develop a thick skin and roll with it, be as objective as possible in analyzing your own work--easier said than done, I know--and keep working. I'll always work and strive to improve. This is a journey and not a one-stop station, and I want to see how far I can go. Do the same, and no matter how hard it is, OP, don't stop.

PowerWriter · May 5, 2013

It's about the writing, not the writer.

I say this to myself before I read, listen to, or give any reviews.

I consider all my writing as bad.

I have been burned too many times by thinking those sentences were great. I now consider it all as awful unless proven otherwise.

I am working on a short story I really love. I mean it really works. It's in draft number two, and I started editing it again this weekend. My first three pages are filled with pen scratches. Good God I wrote some bad crap. But the story still rocks. Gotta keep that in my head and make it all work ... I have a meeting on Wednesday with a writing friend test reader who is very knowledgeable about my subject matter. It is about the story, not me. I will drill that into my head.

Yes, of course I struggle with it.

NeuroFizz · May 5, 2013

Part of the metamorphosis involves recognizing the difference between pride of accomplishment and ego. We should always be proud of our accomplishments, but also proud of our ability to recognize that there is still plenty of room for improvement. If a critique is properly focused--on the work and not on the author--we should be able to maintain our pride of accomplishment while entertaining the possibility that it could still be improved. If we look at the crits with that attitude, we can learn from the comments that address potential weak spots in our work and discard those that don't show that same potential. If we let out ego get involved, we will likely discard even those comments that can lead to our improvement since the ego addresses our very being instead of (or in addition to) our accomplishments. And yes, the two can and should be separated. Golden Words Syndrome is ego-driven, and in that mindset, there is no room for improvement. Same if we take every negative review and immediately dismiss it as reviewer ignorance, reviewer jealousy, or some other dismissive rationalization. Most important, if we are specifically seeking ego-stroking, we need to either grow up in this business or get our Moms to review our work.

Some reviewers should be immediately dismissed. But those are the ones who take their reviews beyond the work and directly onto the author. These reviewers are simply misguided in their contribution, and likely in their motives. But if a review is harsh, yet stays within the limits of the work, it can still be a powerful learning experience for the author.

My advice is to get our egos out of the process as quickly as possible. Our pride of accomplishment can withstand the reviews because it can be used for further learning, and those reviews don't erase the hard work we've put into the project.

Pride of accomplishment includes pride in improvement, and that feeds on external review.

Honest Bill · May 5, 2013

Many people consider it extremely cool to be snarky and scathing. It makes you seem super intelligent, and also draws attention to the fact that you can read. People just want to show everyone how clever they are.

Those nasty comments aren't really about you or your work at all. They are all about the commentator letting everyone else know what a fantastic wit they are. They are just like Oscar Wilde and they don't care for convention oh no... they are the only person in the world who is brave enough to go against the grain, to swim against the current to offend people and 'keep it real.' They are the lone voice of reason in a seas of conformity, a maverick, a lone wolf who is the only person who sees how 'super lame' everything is, or at least the only person who isn't too afraid to say it and they don't mince their words like the rest of the sheeple.

When you see where these people are actually coming from, you simply can't help but laugh at them.

As for the genuinely constructive critiques that actually present you with thoughtful and considered information, well those may hurt far more.. They may actually have a good point. Although it's still only a point from one perspective.

If you should happen to get multiple, independent critiques telling you you that your character is boring or unrealistic. Chances are, your character is boring or unrealistic.

WriteMinded · May 5, 2013

Erin Latimer said:
I'm on a reading/writing website that allows readers to leave comments for you. Most of them are nice, but occasionally I'll get a bad one. I was all proud of myself because I thought I was developing thicker skin against the negative stuff. Some are thoughtful critiques and I can use that, but...

Sometimes it's just nasty. Apparently I'm not as tough as I thought. My question is, does it get better? Will there ever be a time that a negative comment/review doesn't hurt like heck? I don't WANT to dwell on it for hours. It's ridiculous!

Here's the thing. If I post something for the purpose of receiving feedback, I'm asking for opinions on what works, what doesn't, and how I might improve it. If I didn't want to know, I wouldn't put it out there. Mostly I've received thoughtful critiques. But - not always.

Like you said, "Sometimes it's just nasty." Some people are just looking to feed their own egos and they do it by being cruel. No, there's never going to be a time when some jerk attacking you is going to feel better. We aren't wired that way.

Erin Latimer said:
And I don't even really have any "real" reviews yet (like on goodreads). I have a feeling I'll be hiding under the bed when (and if) those start cropping up!

What do you tell yourself in order to get over it? Do you eventually give up caring? I can tell myself "suck it up, princess" all I want, but it isn't working so far.

To myself, I call the dork a few names and tell them where they can put put their - - - - and their - - - - -, too. Then I post a thank you for their kind words. No. I don't give up caring.

Erin Latimer said:
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

There's always Chunky Monkey.

AshleyEpidemic · May 5, 2013

Now keep in mindi just woke up, so my optimism hasn't kicked in.

Anyone who does something that the public has access to will experience this. It is inevitable and you do need to build up your thick skin. It is how the Internet is. Some people just want to break you down.

My advice, either ignore it or thicken that skin.

Orianna2000 · May 5, 2013

Even bestselling authors get negative reviews. Seriously, check out the Amazon reviews for some of your favorite authors. One of my favorites, Diana Gabaldon, a bestselling time-travel romance author--her books are adored by thousands of rabid fans, yet if you look her up on Amazon, she has some very vocal detractors who think her writing is terrible, her plots scandalous, and her characters flat and uninteresting. Now, her overall score is still higher than 4.5 stars out of 5, so the majority clearly rules. But those negative reviews surely must have hurt her feelings.

There's always going to be someone who doesn't like your work, for whatever reason. Maybe they don't care for your genre and mistakenly read your book. Maybe some aspect of your book struck a nerve for them. Or maybe they're having a really bad day and just need an outlet for venting.

The worst thing you can do is reply to the review, trying to defend yourself. It's unprofessional and will do nothing to change the reviewer's mind. The best thing you can do is shrug it off and keep writing. Prove them wrong with your next book.

kkbe · May 5, 2013

Erin: I'm not as tough as I thought. My question is, does it get better? Will there ever be a time that a negative comment/review doesn't hurt like heck? I don't WANT to dwell on it for hours. It's ridiculous!

And I don't even really have any "real" reviews yet (like on goodreads). I have a feeling I'll be hiding under the bed when (and if) those start cropping up!

What do you tell yourself in order to get over it? Do you eventually give up caring? I can tell myself "suck it up, princess" all I want, but it isn't working so far.

I haven't had anything published yet but I've put my stuff out there. Thinking right now about a particular thread relative to one of my novels, it generated a lot of feedback and some of it wasn't pretty. I did cry.

But it helped me to go through that because the truth started to sink in: not everybody's gonna like my stuff. And especially if you write something controversial, something that pushes buttons, you have to prepare yourself for some empassioned responses, both for and agin'. If you can step back, it helps so much.

You are not your work. People are responding to your work. Their responses are subjective and people are entitled to their opinions. Some may like what you write and some may not. And some may write glowing reviews, and some may write scathing ones. I have read that if somebody attacks your writing (or you, heaven forbid), it's best to not respond. I'm talking published reviews now. I'd like to hear from others, if that's indeed the best approach.

My thought is, if you can chalk it up to, Hey, they're entitled to their opinion, I have faith in my stuff, it might make that pill a little less bitter.

And nobody says you have to swallow it.

Does It Get Better?

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