Telling rather than showing an MC's "goodness"

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clee984

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Hey all, I'm not entirely sure if this is the right forum for a thread like this, and I'd also like to apologise if this topic has been covered before (I looked and couldn't find anything, but AW is soooo huge).

I've beta-read a load of novels for AW members now, and I wanted to make an observation of a trap that a surprising number of amateur authors seem to fall into (and it has made me think that I am probably equally guilty of). It is this: the belief that simply telling the reader that your MC (or anyone else) is a "good person" is sufficient, and that the character can then do, say, and think almost anything, and we, the reader, must still consider them "good", just because the author says so. I would rather judge for myself based on the character's actions, thanks, rather than have the author inform me of my opinion.

I've become quite sensitive to it now, and have noticed professional authors are also sometimes guilty - I have just finished Ken Follett's 'The Pillars of the Earth, and he has one character (spoilers follow, whited out) who burns down a church, risking the lives of others for his own selfish reasons, but we are still expected to consider him a "goody", just because he's young and handsome and Mr Follett tells us that the character is good.

Another example that has just occurred to me: Francisco D'Anconia, or whatever the chap's name is, in 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand. Despite Ms Rand's (slightly desperate) assertions that he was a great and noble person, I thought he behaved like a conceited little ponce in dire need of a good slapping from someone (preferably Dagny, she was the real hero in that novel).

I'll admit that I have been slightly irritated by this tendency on a few occasions now when beta-ing. For instance: one novel I beta'd, featured a scene in which an almost total stranger told the MC (and therefore the reader) that the MC was "a good man", despite the stranger not having a shred of evidence to support this claim, nor indeed any reason to say it - how often do you say that to anyone, even your family and friends? In fact, the only knowledge the stranger had of the MC was that he was involved in activities that were morally questionable, at best. On another occasion, I took issue with an author continually labelling one of her MCs as an upright kind of cat (and inevitably, he was tall and handsome etc), when I thought he was egotistical, supercilious, nowhere near as righteous as he seemed to believe, willing to gamble with members of his family's safety just for some petty personal point-scoring........... the author was very nice about it and agreed that the character was more ambiguous than she had pegged him in the narration, but I could tell that my criticisms hurt her feelings a little bit.

So yeah, I guess the point of this slightly meandering rant, is that I think it would be well for all of us to pull ourselves up from time to time, and ask whether our love of our MC is blinding us to their faults, and if perhaps we should let readers judge for themselves, rather than using our own god-like omnipotence in our story's universe to try and influence their opinion.
 

Buffysquirrel

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I felt this about Time Traveller's Wife, where we're constantly told that the man who's grooming Claire is such a good fellow, but I couldn't see a single example of it in the entire book, tbh.
 

Becky Black

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I'm with you. I don't like being told what to think of a character. Obviously the writer can employ whatever persuasion they want to get me to believe something about a character, but I don't like it when they tell me flat out this person is good, this other person is bad. They can tell me what the other characters think about the person, but I reserve the right to think those characters are wrong. :D
 

Susan Coffin

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I'm trying to think of some good books where I'm told someone is good, but I can't think of any. I would rather make up my own mind about whether a character is good, bad, or somewhere in between. Good characterization is supposed to shine through action, dialogue, and how characters live in their world.

how often do you say that to anyone, even your family and friends?

I have said someone is a good person, especially if someone else has been dogging them and I know they are wrong. I have heard this from other people as well. But, this is real life, and we all end up making up our mind about people anyway.
 

WeaselFire

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It kind of bugs me as well, I get my feelings about a character from reading, not being told. I just read a really bad free Kindle book that had one redeeming scene. The "evil" guy has a little frog jump on his head, making him look silly. He simply reached up, let the frog crawl into his hand and set it on a tree stump. Made the character perfectly for me.

The plot sucked and the ending included miracles that couldn't be believed in the story line, plus there was a gratuitous scene with zombies. Beyond that the book was really bad. Kind of par for free Kindle books. :)

Jeff
 

benbenberi

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I agree, if a character is really meant to be "good" I have to see some of that goodness in action, not just have to take it on faith.

It's different if a character is considered to be "good" by people within the story, but the narrative deliberately undermines that assumption -- it's unfortunately all too common in real life that someone is socially acknowledged as "good" and is really the opposite, but it can set up some good dramatic tension or narrative irony in the context of fiction. You lose that when the author is blind to their own constructed reality.
 

quietglow

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A narrator describing a character's virtue/vices can be a fantastic way of revealing the narrator to be unreliable. Ishiguro's Remains of the Day does this. He's praising his father's (obsessive, bad) butlerly qualities and meanwhile we readers are like "uhhh, okay the narrator is crazypants"
 

katci13

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I like the reader to judge for themselves. I usually like my MCs but I think their actions speak for themselves. And I like to read books that extend the same courtesy.
 

clee984

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A narrator describing a character's virtue/vices can be a fantastic way of revealing the narrator to be unreliable. Ishiguro's Remains of the Day does this. He's praising his father's (obsessive, bad) butlerly qualities and meanwhile we readers are like "uhhh, okay the narrator is crazypants"

I agree completely - 'Lolita' by Vladimir Nabakov is another fantastic example of this, where the narrator subtly "gives himself away" to the reader, whilst trying to justify himself. What I have issue with is in third-person narration when the reader is told to sit down, shut up, keep your arms at your sides, while the author takes a pointer and says "look, this guy is great, hokay? Don't concern yourself with how he behaves, just take my word for it".

Another example (I hope no-one recognises their work and gets upset) - I beta-d a novel in which there was a scene of the MC's wife having a baby. The MC's wife gets angry at him (she's giving birth, I think she gets a pass), and the MC stomps off in a tantrum, while his wife is in the process of having his baby. Then after the baby is born, ALL the principal characters are desperately concerned with the poor MC's hurt ickle feelings, and are wondering where he stormed off to etc (and presumably the reader is supposed to care too), and I was just thinking "FUCK him. His wife just gave birth. If he wants to sulk, I don't care where he is".

I think perhaps my point is, that everybody believes they are righteous (otherwise they would not do what they do), and while your story may have only one protagonist, in reality everybody is the protagonist in their own life.
 

Mr Flibble

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If one character says to another that he thinks they are good (and the narrative doesn't support that) then I assume the first character has their own reasons for saying it*. Buttering them up perhaps. Or perhaps they are very naive or...Someone saying it about themselves might be trying to justify something they've done. Etc etc and in effect showing one thing by telling another that is obviously not true

I wouldn't assume it was the author 'telling' me they were good in most cases. Apart from omni, I'd probably mostly assume it was a character saying it, for one reason or another and people often say things that hide their true meaning.

But if it was handled badly and there weren't any reasons for it...yes, I could see that woudl be annoying

* I just wrote a scene like that as it happens. MC1 tells secondary character he's a good man because...well because he's trying to swindle money out of him :D
 

Phaeal

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I wouldn't assume it was the author 'telling' me they were good in most cases. Apart from omni, I'd probably mostly assume it was a character saying it, for one reason or another and people often say things that hide their true meaning.

Yup, and even an omniscient narrator can have an agenda.
 

Lissibith

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What I have issue with is in third-person narration when the reader is told to sit down, shut up, keep your arms at your sides, while the author takes a pointer and says "look, this guy is great, hokay? Don't concern yourself with how he behaves, just take my word for it".

Blah, yeah. And it works both ways too - when I'm supposed to not like a character Just Because. It's been a while since I read it but I seem to remember a character like that early in Eragon (I've mostly blocked out memory of reading that book so its a little fuzzy). A butcher maybe, or something in Eragon's hometown. And clearly I'm supposed to think "what a jerk" but most things the guy did seemed pretty understandable to me, which meant Eragon came off sounding like a brat.
 

sohalt

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I have a bad habit of not finishing books on first reading, because life gets in between, or I'm reading a couple of books simultaneously and the other book catches me more. And that's rarely an indictiment on the quality of the book, because I generally plan to return to it another time and I generally do.

But if there's one thing that really makes me give up on a book - no plans to ever give it another try - then that's indeed failed direction of reader sympathies. The author wanting me to side with someone I just can't get behind.

Of course one way to avoid that pitfall is not directing reader sympathies all that much. That's what I often like about Capital-L Literature - there tends to be a lot more room for ambivalence (which results in more confusion and more freedom on part of the reader. But I guess I take freedom over clarity any day. Also sometimes less emotinal investment though. Many readers are less likely to get emotionally invested if they're not entirely sure whom to root for in the first place. Not necessarily though. I can get very emotional about characters I feel very ambivalent about.) One way to do that is taking a somewhat ironic stance towards all your characters (which is why I love Musil and Mann - with them I always feel very free to feel however I want to feel about any given character, because they are all supposed to be faintly absurd to varying degrees.)

Or you direct the shit out of reader sympathies but you do it well, you do it in a nuanced way; you don't half-ass it by throwing in a couple of pet-the-dog moments and think you're done - no, you actually think things through from all possible angles. Because being a good person is actually really difficult and can require quite a bit of thought. The right thing to do is not immediately obvious in any given situation. Writers who fail to make their heroes actually admireable often fail because of their own moral blind spots. That's why it's such a difficult thing to call out as a beta-reader. Because even if writers don't plan to get on any soap boxes, stories end up reflecting their value system and telling someone that their hero is actually shitty and doesn't deserve to be rewarded by the narrative (sometimes even "redemption through death" can feel undeserved, if direction of reader sympathies truly fails) calls into question their entire sense of poetic justice.

It's usually a failure of empathy, a failure to consider other perspectives. The writer ends up creating a self-absorbed inconsiderate hero because of neglecting the P.O.V of the characters around him. Even if they don't get P.O.V chapters in the book, the should get a P.O.V in the writer's head.
 

quicklime

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If one character says to another that he thinks they are good (and the narrative doesn't support that) then I assume the first character has their own reasons for saying it*. Buttering them up perhaps. Or perhaps they are very naive or...Someone saying it about themselves might be trying to justify something they've done. Etc etc and in effect showing one thing by telling another that is obviously not true

I wouldn't assume it was the author 'telling' me they were good in most cases. Apart from omni, I'd probably mostly assume it was a character saying it, for one reason or another and people often say things that hide their true meaning.

But if it was handled badly and there weren't any reasons for it...yes, I could see that woudl be annoying

* I just wrote a scene like that as it happens. MC1 tells secondary character he's a good man because...well because he's trying to swindle money out of him :D


Lolita was a great example of this; Humbert describes things in a sort of flip glee until maybe the last quarter of the book or less, where he comes to a bit of grip with what he's really done with Dolores' childhood. But earlier, the author is only letting Humbert speak, and most folks, good or bad, manage to whitewash their images in their own mind.
 

Buffysquirrel

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I remember reading an SF book some years ago that had alternating narratives with two different characters who were in conflict, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out whose side I was supposed to be on. Okay, maybe that was the point--there wasn't a 'side'. But it spoilt the book for me, tbh. Yeah, the fault not in the book but in the squirrel, maybe? :)
 

jjdebenedictis

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"Don’t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary."

-- From "Social Aims" by Ralph Waldo Emerson
 

ArachnePhobia

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That's one of the reasons I like villain protagonists. If the writer tells me the MC is a creep up front, I'm not disappointed by the discovery (and I've got the option to bail if they're too much of a creep). That said, whether the characters are protags or villain protags, I think it's ultimately more important to sell their actions as believable and in character than anything else.
 

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As a reader, I tend to be more interested in seeing examples of an MC's badness. Ask yourself: Who's the most interesting character in the original Star Wars movie trilogy?

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Obiwan
4. Darth Vader

caw
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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As a reader, I tend to be more interested in seeing examples of an MC's badness. Ask yourself: Who's the most interesting character in the original Star Wars movie trilogy?

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Obiwan
4. Darth Vader

caw

Luke, because he undergoes the most change.

Sorry, not sure I'm seeing the point to that exercise?
 

jjdebenedictis

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Luke, because he undergoes the most change.

Sorry, not sure I'm seeing the point to that exercise?
Erm, some of us find Vader a teensy bit more galvanizing than Luke. I think that was the point.

Also, if you're discussing the whole trilogy, as Blacbird specified, then Vader undergoes the most change.
 

blacbird

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First, apologies for a possible thread digression.

Back to the original question, this: Do we readers need to be told that Atticus Finch, in To Kill a Mockingbird, is a really fine man, honest, courageous, devoted to his children?

Answer: Nope. We get shown that, in exquisite detail, which makes that novel one of the classic American novels of the 20th century.

Same question could be asked of any number of characters in great novels and stories, and the same answer would apply.

caw
 

UndergoingMitosis

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For me, more irritating than assertion of the MC's goodness is that of their intelligence, but it's essentially the same issue.

I hate when a protagonist who is constantly lauded by those around him/her as "smart" is really slow on the uptake. It's no fun to read a novel when your "smart" narrator figures out the twist a hundred pages after you do, and spends those hundred pages wondering about it like an idiot. Nothing turns me off to a book faster.
 

rwm4768

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Yeah, this is definitely annoying. It's okay to tell us the character is a good person, but their actions better back that up.
 
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