Fight scenes and pronoun attribution

Roxxsmom · May 3, 2013

I rarely have issues with pronoun attribution in sentences, as it's pretty easy to mix up sentence structures. But combat scenes (especially when both combatants are the same sex) are one area I find pretty challenging.

A couple of caveats. I'm writing in limited third and I'm trying to follow the advice that is often give to construct your sentences where the action precedes the consequence of the action.

So something like this (assume we're in Bob's pov). This isn't great (I just rattled it off), but it's an example of my frustration with trying to keep the pronouns straight without using the character's names every sentence or inverting sentence structures.

Bob rammed his shoulder into Tom, slamming him against the wall. His face twisted itself into a demented mask. "You b*****d!" (his here needs to refer to Tom, but seems unclear to me. But using Tom two sentences in a row seems awkward also).

"What in the hell do you expect?" Bob slammed his fist into Tom's face. Pain exploded in his knuckles (here the "his" refers to Bob, the pov character, but again, I'm not sure it's clear), but seeing the jerk's head snap around was worth it.

Tom roared and surged forward. He wrapped his arms around Bob's torso, squeezing like a python. The breath whooshed from Tom's (repeat of Tom in the same paragraph, but I don't feel like I can use "he" here) lungs, and dark spots danced in front of his eyes. Where had the ***** learned that move? He planted his feet and threw his weight against his assailant... (I used his assailant here to refer to Tom, but not sure if this is a pov violation. Would Bob really think of Tom as "his assailant" instead of by his name or an adverb)?

Again, this is not polished prose and is just something I made up on the spot, but I'm just trying to show the issue I'm having with too many uses of proper names and pronouns. So does anyone else ever run into this issue, and does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to fix it?

Oh, and does anyone know of any good craft books that focus on writing combat, battle and fight scenes specifically in fiction? I've actually not had a lot of luck finding any myself (I bought one on writing action scenes, but it actually has nothing about combat or fights

)

Dreity · May 3, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
I rarely have issues with pronoun attribution in sentences, as it's pretty easy to mix up sentence structures. But combat scenes (especially when both combatants are the same sex) are one area I find pretty challenging.

A couple of caveats. I'm writing in limited third and I'm trying to follow the advice that is often give to construct your sentences where the action precedes the consequence of the action.

So something like this (assume we're in Bob's pov). This isn't great (I just rattled it off), but it's an example of my frustration with trying to keep the pronouns straight without using the character's names every sentence or inverting sentence structures.

Bob rammed his shoulder into Tom, slamming him against the wall. His face twisted itself into a demented mask. "You b*****d!" (his here needs to refer to Tom, but seems unclear to me. But using Tom two sentences in a row seems awkward also).

"What in the hell do you expect?" Bob slammed his fist into Tom's face. Pain exploded in his knuckles (here the "his" refers to Bob, the pov character, but again, I'm not sure it's clear), but seeing the jerk's head snap around was worth it.

Tom roared and surged forward. He wrapped his arms around Bob's torso, squeezing like a python. The breath whooshed from Tom's (repeat of Tom in the same paragraph, but I don't feel like I can use "he" here) lungs, and dark spots danced in front of his eyes. Where had the ***** learned that move? He planted his feet and threw his weight against his assailant... (I used his assailant here to refer to Tom, but not sure if this is a pov violation. Would Bob really think of Tom as "his assailant" instead of by his name or an adverb)?

Again, this is not polished prose and is just something I made up on the spot, but I'm just trying to show the issue I'm having with too many uses of proper names and pronouns. So does anyone else ever run into this issue, and does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to fix it?

Oh, and does anyone know of any good craft books that focus on writing combat, battle and fight scenes specifically in fiction? I've actually not had a lot of luck finding any myself (I bought one on writing action scenes, but it actually has nothing about combat or fights )

Re: bolded, how disappointing!

Pronouns are a huge problem for me, which is why I sigh in relief when FMC is the focus of the fight.

Environment helps a lot. In fights with multiple people, I include a variety of weapons not only to make things more interesting, but also so I can refer to "the swordsman" to keep the pronouns from getting stale. But then again, the MC's opponents are often complete strangers. In cases where both fighters are named and of the same gender, it's harder to work around. I probably use things like "the man" too often, but for now being clear is my top priority.

Following this thread with interest!

Oromashu · May 3, 2013

Yeah, uh, I have no technique to combat this either. Best thing I can think of is to use visual cues to refer to the other person. I usually stare at the sentence for awhile until something good pops in my mind.

cornflake · May 3, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
I rarely have issues with pronoun attribution in sentences, as it's pretty easy to mix up sentence structures. But combat scenes (especially when both combatants are the same sex) are one area I find pretty challenging.

A couple of caveats. I'm writing in limited third and I'm trying to follow the advice that is often give to construct your sentences where the action precedes the consequence of the action.

So something like this (assume we're in Bob's pov). This isn't great (I just rattled it off), but it's an example of my frustration with trying to keep the pronouns straight without using the character's names every sentence or inverting sentence structures.

Bob rammed his shoulder into Tom, slamming him against the wall. His face twisted itself into a demented mask. "You b*****d!" (his here needs to refer to Tom, but seems unclear to me. But using Tom two sentences in a row seems awkward also).

I'd generally do this by condensing to avoid the issue of the unclear antecedent or the stilted-sounding namechecking. For instance, in the above example, it could turn into (same as you, I'm just reconstructing what's there on the fly, not meant to be anything but demonstrative of what I mean) -

Tom's face twisted into a demented mask as Bob rammed into him with a shoulder.

The pronoun is then clear as Bob can't ram into himself and can only use his own shoulders.

"What in the hell do you expect?" Bob slammed his fist into Tom's face. Pain exploded in his knuckles (here the "his" refers to Bob, the pov character, but again, I'm not sure it's clear), but seeing the jerk's head snap around was worth it.

I actually don't know who's speaking there, but if it's Bob -

"What the hell do you expect?" Bob growled as he pounded his fist into Tom's face. It was worth it to see the jerk's head snap back, even if his knuckles were burning.

I think the antecedent is clear there as it'd make no sense otherwise, just physics-wise.

Tom roared and surged forward. He wrapped his arms around Bob's torso, squeezing like a python. The breath whooshed from Tom's (repeat of Tom in the same paragraph, but I don't feel like I can use "he" here) lungs, and dark spots danced in front of his eyes. Where had the ***** learned that move? He planted his feet and threw his weight against his assailant... (I used his assailant here to refer to Tom, but not sure if this is a pov violation. Would Bob really think of Tom as "his assailant" instead of by his name or an adverb)?

Tom roared and advanced, wrapping his arms around Bob with a python-like grip. Bob wondered where the move had come from while planting his feet to try to get free. Tom saw spots but...

I don't think there's much wiggle room there if you go back and forth unless you do something like this -

Tom roared and advanced, grabbing Bob in a python-like grip and squeezing.

"Where'd you learn that move?" Bob managed to squeak out.

"Your momma," Tim said as spots danced...

Again, this is not polished prose and is just something I made up on the spot, but I'm just trying to show the issue I'm having with too many uses of proper names and pronouns. So does anyone else ever run into this issue, and does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to fix it?

Oh, and does anyone know of any good craft books that focus on writing combat, battle and fight scenes specifically in fiction? I've actually not had a lot of luck finding any myself (I bought one on writing action scenes, but it actually has nothing about combat or fights )

In general, I'd rework so it's either condensed or dialogue. I don't know any books with craft advice. You might try looking at various author's fight scenes to see how they're constructed though.

LA*78 · May 3, 2013

I don't know if they're 'right' or not, but here's what I'd probably write:

Bob rammed his shoulder into Tom, slamming him against the wall. His face twisted itself into a demented mask. "You b*****d!"

Bob rammed his shoulder, slamming him against the wall. Tom's face twisted itself into a demented mask. "You b*****d!"

"What in the hell do you expect?" Bob slammed his fist into Tom's face. Pain exploded in his knuckles, but seeing the jerk's head snap around was worth it.

"What in the hell do you expect?" Slamming his fist into Tom's face, pain exploded in Bob's knuckles. Seeing the jerk's head snap around was worth it.

Tom roared and surged forward. He wrapped his arms around Bob's torso, squeezing like a python. The breath whooshed from Tom's lungs, and dark spots danced in front of his eyes. Where had the ***** learned that move? He planted his feet and threw his weight against his assailant...

Tom roared and surged forward, wrapping his arms around Bob's torso. He squeezed like a python and the breath whooshed from Bob's lungs. Dark spots danced in front of Bob's eyes. Where had the ***** learned that move? Bob planted his feet and threw his weight against Tom...
(I don't think I would use assailant at the end. If was going to use it, it would be at the start of the scene to clarify who the attacker is. It doesn't make sense to me to use it at the end.)

I'm sure others will have better suggestions

Good luck with it!

fredXgeorge · May 3, 2013

I would change this one to 'Where had the ***** learned that move? Bob planted his feet and threw his weight against his assailant,' or at least indicate Bob is doing the action, but that was the only one I found confusing. The rest I didn't stumble over who was being referred to when.

Putputt · May 3, 2013

Writing fight scenes is a struggle for me as well, but I got around that by looking at plenty of fight scenes in books. I referred to the fight scene between Bronn and Ser Egen in GoT, Logen Ninefingers' fight scenes in The First Law trilogy, and a few others...but those were the two that stood out to me in terms of flow and tension.

Going back to your example,

Bob rammed his shoulder into Tom, slamming him against the wall. His face twisted itself into a demented mask. I would assume "his face" here refers to Tom's because Bob can't see his own face twisting into a demented mask. "You b*****d!" I would assume it's Bob talking here because the dialogue is preceded by Bob doing an action (slamming into Tom), but you could add a dialogue tag here and it wouldn't bother me.

"What in the hell do you expect?" Bob slammed his fist into Tom's face. This is confusing. Is Tom the one who's talking? This needs a dialogue tag. Pain exploded in his knuckles, It's clear to me that this is Bob, because he is the POV character. He can't know what Tom is feeling. but seeing the jerk's head snap around was worth it.

Tom roared and surged forward. He wrapped his arms around Bob's torso, squeezing like a python. The breath whooshed from Tom's lungs, and dark spots danced in front of his eyes. Hang on, this is kind of a POV jump. We're looking at it from Bob's POV, right? How can he know that dark spots are jumping? Unless it's a typo and you meant to say Bob. In that case, a "his" would be okay, because we know it's Bob's chest being squeezed, so we'd assume he's the one running out of breath. Where had the ***** learned that move? He planted his feet and threw his weight against his assailant... Assailant is fine to me, but then I don't know Bob. You would know your character better, so you'd know what word he'd use. Whatever it is, it would be clear who the "he" and the "assailant" refer to.

The_Burning_Quill · May 3, 2013

I think what you are running into is a deeper problem with how you are trying to construct the fight scene.

Directing the traffic of the readers perception from one protagonist to the other will never come across as smooth. It is too easy for the reader to get lost in who is doing what to whom, no matter how well you work it, for it to ever be a complete success.

Once the reader loses the thread then the whole scene unravells and you get to the 'I don't care about these people' situation.

My opinion would be to approach the fight from one tight perspective only and to leave as much of what is happening/happened to the reader. A big build-up then minimal described action can often be more effective than trying to walk the reader through every step of the waltz.

So:

Tom was wide and strong and quick but Bob knew he was quicker. His years as a linebacker had hardened his body into a train, an ice-breaker with his shoulder as its explosive tip.

So it was no surprise seeing Tom crash and crumple against the wall, wheezing. "You b****," he wheezed.

"What did you expect?"

What was a surprise was when Tom grabbed him, squeezing him like a python. Where had the ***** learned that move?

Again, not a great example - but I think allowing the reader more latitude in how things happen rather than micro-managing the motions can be more effective.

Bufty · May 3, 2013

Pronoun confusion in fights usually arises because of a desire to say too much, bad sentence structure causing confusion of the sequence of events, and/or a weak POV.

My quick changed version. I omitted the last paragraph of the example because to my eye it’s bad and stretches credibility.

Bob shoulder-charged Tom, slamming him into the wall.

“You bastard,” Tom gasped.

Bob stepped back, one hand keeping Tom pinned against the bricks. "What in the hell’d you expect?" Then he punched Tom in the mouth. Hard. Pain exploded in his knuckles but it was worth it.

Bob rammed his shoulder into Tom, slamming him against the wall. His face twisted itself into a demented mask. "You b*****d!"
"What in the hell do you expect?" Bob slammed his fist into Tom's face. Pain exploded in his knuckles , but seeing the jerk's head snap around was worth it.

Tom roared and surged forward. He wrapped his arms around Bob's torso, squeezing like a python. The breath whooshed from Tom's lungs, and dark spots danced in front of his eyes. Where had the ***** learned that move? He planted his feet and threw his weight against his assailant...

Princess Marina · May 3, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
I rarely have issues with pronoun attribution in sentences, as it's pretty easy to mix up sentence structures. But combat scenes (especially when both combatants are the same sex) are one area I find pretty challenging.

I find it helps to keep the sentences short which makes the fight move faster and also avoids most of the pronoun confusion. Using, titles, descriptions or nicknames can also help separate the characters.

everywriter · May 3, 2013

My suggestion (and it is just a suggestion) is to tighten the point of view in these fights (being that you are writing in 3rd limited). Too much is coming out about both characters I think (maybe). The POV is going toward omniscients and you don't want that. That makes the fight important. The fight isn't important how your main character feels is. When there is a fight with the main character I think you want to drop the 3rd person really tight as if you were writing in the 1st person. I don't mean change to 1st person, I mean that this is an intense situation where the reader should very much care about your main protagonist and feel what he or she feels.

From Tom:
Tom roared and surged forward. He wrapped his arms around Bob's torso, squeezing like a python. All of his muscles burned as he heard wheezing. He felt Bob's body become heavy for a moment and then push back.

Slicklines · May 3, 2013

everywriter said:
My suggestion (and it is just a suggestion) is to tighten the point of view in these fights (being that you are writing in 3rd limited). Too much is coming out about both characters I think (maybe).

I think this is pretty solid advice. I just wrote several scenes with the same problem (although different circumstance: two women in the bedroom). There were times when the pronoun issue made me want to stomp on my computer. Many times I was able to restructure sentences such that there were enough clues to append the right pronoun to the right proper noun. But in editing the scenes, I found the best solution was to stick with one voice as the center of action.

veinglory · May 3, 2013

A similar problem occurs in M/M sex scenes. As mentioned above, my general approach is to use a deeper third person so that the POV character is not referred to very often.

Honest Bill · May 3, 2013

For what it's worth, in every one of those examples in the OP, i felt the context provided all the necessary information... Actually the very first one was perhaps a little bit unclear, but the others were fine. If someone punches someone in the face and then some knuckles start bleeding, it's pretty easy to figure out who they belonged to.

Also it's worth considering, that when Bob gets hurt you describe how it felt, and when Tom gets hurt you descibe how it looked. That should help to clue the reader in.

Orianna2000 · May 3, 2013

If you search Amazon for "write fight scenes" a few books pop up. I haven't read any of them, but maybe one will have what you're looking for.

My advice, as some others have suggested, is to tighten the POV. Don't switch back and forth between characters, but keep focused on your MC and his feelings, his actions and his reactions. If he punches someone, don't flip to show the other guy losing his breath, but instead show it from the MC's POV--say, the guy exhales in his face, revealing that he had onions for lunch. Or the other guy's blood splatters on the MC. See what I mean? Let the MC experience everything. It will make the fight more immediate and less chaotic.

Also keep pacing in mind. Fight scenes should be swift. Keep your sentences short and don't describe things that aren't vital to the scene. This isn't a time for thoughts to wander. If you think about it, instead of the one guy pausing to wonder, "Where in the world did he learn that move?" given the circumstances, he'd more likely think, "Huh? Oh, crap." And then he'd be ducking or punching again. Keep it realistic and you'll do fine.

Sonsofthepharaohs · May 3, 2013

veinglory said:
A similar problem occurs in M/M sex scenes. As mentioned above, my general approach is to use a deeper third person

*snigger*

I haz me sum duhteh, smutteh thoughts about adding a third person to an M/M sex scene... a well-endowed one at that...

hehehe, deeper....

Ok, nuff smut (WHUT???? complains my inner smut whore)

I chime in with those saying it's probably a POV issue. Your example was a bit of a tennis match, where we're watching the action switch from one to the other, instead of just seeing it all from your MC's POV.

I don't know about fist fighting, but Christian Cameron does some really good close third battle scenes. You get to experience the battle from inside the helmet, seeing only what the character sees, feeling the sweat trickle down their back, the weight of their weapons, and the confusion of melee combat where you act out of instinct and don't even feel the wounds until you're alive on the other side.

I definitely recommend the Tyrant series

Reziac · May 3, 2013

Bufty said:
Pronoun confusion in fights usually arises because of a desire to say too much, bad sentence structure causing confusion of the sequence of events, and/or a weak POV.

This, exactly. The real problem isn't the pronouns, it's that in the example, you're trying to be everywhere and everyone at once, lest we miss something in the fight's mad scramble. When you're actually in one head or the other, there's no confusion.

Roxxsmom · May 3, 2013

Thanks for all the advice! I'm glad I'm not the only writer who has ever had issues with this sort of thing

veinglory said:
A similar problem occurs in M/M sex scenes. As mentioned above, my general approach is to use a deeper third person so that the POV character is not referred to very often.

I've seen this advice given re deep pov but have not really seen an example of how to do it. In a fight, I do want to show cause and effect. So for instance, how might I reword something like:

"Bob smashed his fist into Tom's jaw, snapping his head around"

to omit the reference to the pov character? I find this easy to do with perceptions. For instance "Bob saw him spit out teeth" would become "he spat out teeth." It's simply eliminating a filter there. But when Bob does something, how do I show that he's doing it without a pronoun or name?

It's hard to explain the issue I'm having with the scene I'm writing, specifically. I have other fight scenes that have worked out better. But in this particular one, the pov character knows his assailant very well, so he's not going to be thinking of him in abstract terms like "the blond man" or the "tall man with the poniard" or something like that. Also, the combat is unarmed in this case, and it involves some spell effects, and my pov character is incapacitated at the end when someone else shows up and drains his life energy while he's focused on his opponent.

Interestingly, none of my readers have criticized it, but this particular scene feels klunkier than my normal writing to me. It wouldn't really work to post in SYW, as it takes place later in the novel, and without context or an understanding of my magic system, readers likely would be confused.

I'm definitely going to have to get some of my old favorite scenes out for analysis. I have found reading how other writers handle some of these things has been very useful in the past. It's just that the scene in question is kind of unusual in some ways, and it seems to plague me with more pronouns than usual.

And I had a pov faux pas in the scene I tossed out because I forgot which of the made up on the spot characters was the pov. An example of how even the author can get confused with a snippet with no context. I don't tend to have pov issue with my usual writing either. I fixed it to make it clear that Bob was the one who was on the verge of blacking out.

Ugh

CrastersBabies · May 3, 2013

The_Burning_Quill said:
I think what you are running into is a deeper problem with how you are trying to construct the fight scene.

Directing the traffic of the readers perception from one protagonist to the other will never come across as smooth. It is too easy for the reader to get lost in who is doing what to whom, no matter how well you work it, for it to ever be a complete success.

Once the reader loses the thread then the whole scene unravells and you get to the 'I don't care about these people' situation.

My opinion would be to approach the fight from one tight perspective only and to leave as much of what is happening/happened to the reader. A big build-up then minimal described action can often be more effective than trying to walk the reader through every step of the waltz.

So:

Tom was wide and strong and quick but Bob knew he was quicker. His years as a linebacker had hardened his body into a train, an ice-breaker with his shoulder as its explosive tip.

So it was no surprise seeing Tom crash and crumple against the wall, wheezing. "You b****," he wheezed.

"What did you expect?"

What was a surprise was when Tom grabbed him, squeezing him like a python. Where had the ***** learned that move?

Again, not a great example - but I think allowing the reader more latitude in how things happen rather than micro-managing the motions can be more effective.

This is solid. I'd go with this advice.

Writing fight scenes are super tough. The best scenes, imho, have internalization and motivation, not just a laundry list of actions. Bringing the psychic distance close is the best advice I can give (as is shown in Quill's example--welcome, btw, Quill!). It's nice to see someone offering suggestions instead of just rattling off a bunch of stuff that you're doing wrong, hoping that the poster will magically fix it overnight.

Read the opening passage from Joe Abercrombie's book:

Found HERE as sample on Amazon.

If it were just Logen and the Shanka exchanging a few blows, the text would be 2 paragraphs long.

There's something at stake and it's made clear in the stuff that surrounds the action itself.

Even as I write this, I'm thinking, "Geesh, easier said than done." It's hard. I taught creative writing in college and I had students drooling at the chance to write a badass fight scene. So, I let them one day. "Write a fight scene." I gave them 15 minutes.

I could have powered a city with all the wheels spinning inside their heads. It's hard, a lot harder than it looks.

But, the OP has gotten some solid advice in here, some that made me raise my eyebrow and jot down for future use myself.

Reziac · May 3, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
I've seen this advice given re deep pov but have not really seen an example of how to do it. In a fight, I do want to show cause and effect. So for instance, how might I reword something like:

"Bob smashed his fist into Tom's jaw, snapping his head around"

to omit the reference to the pov character? I find this easy to do with perceptions. For instance "Bob saw him spit out teeth" would become "he spat out teeth." It's simply eliminating a filter there. But when Bob does something, how do I show that he's doing it without a pronoun or name?

Well... if we're already in Bob's POV...

He smashed his fist into Tom's jaw, snapping his head around. Tom spat broken teeth, recovered his balance, and lunged forward.

Roxxsmom said:
Interestingly, none of my readers have criticized it, but this particular scene feels klunkier than my normal writing to me. It wouldn't really work to post in SYW, as it takes place later in the novel, and without context or an understanding of my magic system, readers likely would be confused.

Bah, not a problem. Either the text follows or it doesn't, regardless of what else we don't know.

(Then again, I always write in orphan scenes, so I think this is normal.

)

The klunk might be too much moving the puppets around and not enough of what happens to them as the scene progresses. Try writing from a standpoint of consequences rather than actions. Bob's broken knuckles and Tom's split lip rather than throwing a punch and taking a punch.

blacbird · May 3, 2013

As Reziac implies, this is largely a point-of-view problem. Pay strict attention to that. Act the scene out, if you have to.

As a slight aside, I find fight scenes rendered in choreographed action of the participants really boring. If it's being rendered in Bob's POV, you should only relate what Bob experiences. And most fights are fast, and over quickly. If it takes longer for the reader to read the scene than it does for it to actually take place, you've overdescribed it.

caw

Roxxsmom · May 3, 2013

blacbird said:
As a slight aside, I find fight scenes rendered in choreographed action of the participants really boring.

caw

I do as well, and definitely want to keep the real one tightly in one person's head. There are some writers where I skim or skip their fights because they toss in all the names of the moves and describe every shift of stance or whatever in exhaustive detail.

But it's occurred to me just now that combat can be a bit like writing sex. There is a continuum of graphic-ness, detail and emotional intensity with which a scene can be constructed, and something that pleases one reader may bore another, or vice versa.

But I'm having trouble grasping what people mean by not showing the non pov character. Does this mean that I shouldn't describe what the non pov person is doing at all? I'm having trouble seeing this in my head, as all the fight scenes I've read (in first, limited third, even deeper) pov describe the other person's actions (though not their feelings, sensations or thoughts, obviously) as perceived by the pov character. I mean, if Bob's face "explodes in pain," something (Tom's fist) hit him first. Unless Bob didn't see the fist coming, he would have seen the swing first, and tried (and failed) to duck or block. And if Bob's knuckles split, some action had to precede this.

Saying something like, "Bob slammed into the wall and fell to the floor, gasping for breath" without saying who hit him/slammed him into the wall gives me the mistaken impression that he slammed himself into the wall, for instance, or that something invisible slammed him into the wall. Since I have magic in my world, this is possible, but I want to make it clear it was his assailant throwing him.

CrastersBabies said:
This is solid. I'd go with this advice.

Writing fight scenes are super tough. The best scenes, imho, have internalization and motivation, not just a laundry list of actions.

And I completely agree with this, and in fact, in my real stories with real characters (not ones I just made up quickly to illustrate a particular issue), I do try to do this. With these, the tougher issue for me is keeping the rhythm and flow and snappiness (the beats, maybe) of the back and forth without losing it in a sea of internal narrative and descriptions of sensations. But I find that more fun than second guessing myself about pronouns.

I know what I tossed out there was very skeletal, but I simply threw it together to show the issue that was driving me batty with pronoun attribution in intense scenes where there is a lot of directly states actions and back and forth.

Anyway, thanks for the input everyone. As always, lots of food for thought

Oromashu · May 3, 2013

I may not have started this topic, but it has helped me out a lot. Thanks for the advice and responses everyone. Should aid me in the revision process.

Willow M Stevens · May 3, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
Bob rammed his shoulder into Tom, slamming him against the wall. His face twisted itself into a demented mask. "You b*****d!" (his here needs to refer to Tom, but seems unclear to me. But using Tom two sentences in a row seems awkward also).

Ditto to all the great advice above. My added caution regarding the tendency toward more distant omni POV (opposite of the advice to go into a deeper 3rd) is that the POV character is not going to know everything that happens.

For example, in the quote above, Bob's shoulder is slamming into (presumably) Tom's midsection. Tom's subsequent grimace would then not likely be seen by Bob, whose head would still be lower and/or not looking at Tom's face.

If it were a movie with a camera angle on Bob's back, then we (as an omni audience) would see the grimace, but I highly doubt that, in this instance, Bob would. That being said, I'm fully aware that the above was quickly written for a point, but my point is in support of the above advice, to write only what your POV character would actually do and sense (see, feel, etc), which means that some parts of the fight may be missing from the reader's perspective, but that's okay, because no human being actually takes in all that's happening around them like a video camera would.

Good post, great question, love all the replies it generated.

Roxxsmom · May 4, 2013

Good point there, and that's an example of the sort of thing I have to work out when I thinking in more detail, certainly.

One frustrating thing I've noticed is there's always that one reviewer who does want the scene to be more in an omniscient or panoramic style, so they get a more zoomed out perspective--never mind that every other scene in the story is written in a deeper pov.

I had one reader who wanted me to describe what kinds of weapons the pov character's assailants were using in a street ambush. My response was, "Heck if I know. It was too dark for him to see, except that it was some kind of sword." I did try to go back (re passive worldbuilding), in earlier non-combat scenes, to give readers an idea of what types of weapons were commonly carried at least.

I had another reader who wanted to know where all the guardsmen who showed up at the end of another fight came from. Again, my pov character had no idea. He slipped in some blood and by the time he scrambled to his feet, there were a bunch of guys with red and black livery there.

Fight scenes and pronoun attribution

Raised by Wolves

practical experience, FTW

I heart sexy elves and wizards.

permanently suctioned to Buz's leg

Where have the last ten years gone?

Princess Marina

volitare nequeo

practical experience, FTW

Freelance Writer

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Resident Alien

Raised by Wolves

Burninator!

Resident Alien

Raised by Wolves

Bending but not breaking

Raised by Wolves